Mentoring

Siren,

Feel free to e-mail me your work anytime. I'll read it and give you private feedback. It won't go past my screen, promise.

I see a problem with this in that the mentor would have to be someone whose work you respect... if people offer, and you think they're writing to be... erm.. possibly not of the level you are aiming for, how would you decline without hurting feelings?

Difficult one...

Perhaps if you send an initial email to someone/s whose writing you respect and who has their name in red thus allowing people to see their email address then that could start it.

Anyone who puts their email out there is probably fairly happy to be contacted, so then you can choose who you ask rather than have people offer and then accept advice you'd rather not have.

People can always say no if they don't have the time.

good idea.

Good point ferg!

Sirren, if your interested in my private opinion, you can email me at...

radiodenver@earthlink.net

Gary

Li,

Don't you think that sometimes writers make the worst critics though? I personally would rather know what the girl at the counter at the convenience store likes to read and how she feels about what she reads. You get a more fundamental feel for what your doing that way. I had a story get picked over elsewhere on proper references to livestock, which the critic proudly proclaimed I had done correctly! Now, what writer is going to lecture you on how to write about livestock and where else would you get that?

Sometimes writers do make the worst critics... I know I would not like stephen king to crit my work for example, as i find his tedious overlong explanations and desriptions a nonsense. My point was, that someone may offer to crit your work, when you think that theirs, is dire, and would no more take advice from them than stick your head in a three foot wide cow pat.

It's true, you dont have to know how to paint to spot a crap mural...

a crap mural - there's a market for them. You go round, picking up the various stools of various species (owls, pigs, hedgehogs, wood pigeons and the like) and then slap 'em on a wall (preferably in a subway or underpass or something) and entitle it something like, 'Home Grown' or 'harvest for the world'.

Sorry, though I was somewhere else.

One mans trash is another mans treasure.

Trash as treasure.....A blatant plug....check this story out...

Cap mural sounds like the sort of work I would get asked to do. Once I have finished the 36ft trees and model of a field. You wouldn't believe the things people want.

Thanks for the offer of critical help guys. I will take you up on that.

Liana, does it matter if you don't like their work if, as Radio says, the most relevant critics may be people who are not them selves writers? I'm not decided either way, but it's an interesting idea. Many professional critics are probably not good writers or musicians. (Hence them being critics.)

none of us are professional critics though... mostly we are just people who like to read lots, write lots and share ideas....

pretty cool, huh?

Yup very cool

Yeah, i think it matters sirren... i'm not talking about people who arent writers at all though. I'm talking about people who do view themselves as writers... Lets take a specific case - the thread that radio started on emmas recent piece, his opinion is as valid as anyones (and im not saying for one moment here that emma or anyone else doesnt like his work of course), but he said that the poem was a sanitised version and not as good... then you can see where several other people have said "but its far BETTER".. so it's all subjective, and different writers like different things.

It's all getting a bit convoluted now, what I meant was, if someone doesnt write the stuff that you aspire to, or writes in a different genre/style/field altogether, then perhaps the comments wouldnt be quite as valuable as the comments of another who can spot immediately where something is aimed because their work is respected by yourself?

God now this sounds rubbish. Am supposed to be strimming my football pitch out back, and its just TOO damned hot.

Yeah, and y'know...I post my work all over the place. I use other sites totally unrelated to writing, and get into messaging etc and test out my stuff on folks. I too value the opinion of the non-writer. However, it depends what we are trying to do...when it comes to poetry, for example, things get very, very tricky indeed. Taste is so varied, but the ambition of the writer must surely have to be taken into account. Take a look at their influences, may be...and if they aspire to great things or not. Mostly I like to know if what I have written takes you there/communicates...whether you have got some experience from reading it...I want to refine and refine until the message speaks louder than the means. Sometimes people are able to say it got them there, or almost did, sometimes people are able to say why it does or doesn't. I feel a lack of the latter on the site at present.
I have no real ambitions, but will travel alongside my work, wherever it takes me, and look for fulfilment through self-expression and communication. I get so much from work I read on here. I want to do the same for others, without any ego issues.

I can't go here...Liana, you got me now....I promised someone I would shut up.

If you want to know if someone likes a piece, then they don't have to be a writer, or someone whose opinion you respect. But if you want to know how to make it BETTER then they do have to be both.

The best way is to give some decent feedback and most people here are civilised enough to give you some in return. Plus, it lets you look at people's novels-in-progress, which helps you think about how work is constructed...

Lian,
I agree with you, in practice, but the thoary as to why gets a bit complicated doesn't it? I would never value the opinion of an artist whose work I didn't like. In fact maybe I'm a snob but I often don't value the opinion of non artists either, I want them to like it, but their feedback is often useless as they can't explain why they do or don't like it. So I guess the same thing goes for writing, the big difference being most people read books and have opinions, lots of people don't see the point of art at all.

Sirren -

Exactly!

Andrew -

and EXACTLY! again.

That would be FANTASTIC, if it could happen! Agree entirely with Emma, really miss having critical feedback. Trying to chip way out of writers'block would REALLY WELCOME some advice. R and I both really miss feedback from editors like MYB, Liana and Andrew used to give, though realise must have been horrifically time consuming for them

Am sure this subject has been raised before? Wasn't it suggested that interested mentors could go on a list, to be accessed through the site, and so you could read their work and decide who you would most appreciate help from? Eg, someone writing surreal sort of stuff with magic in could choose Andrew (sorry to put you there, remember you volunteered before, though always found your comments very helpful for poems too :0) )

If it was official, then you wouldn't feel like you were imposing on them, and it would be ok if they turned you down because they could say they had too many people on their books already? Or they could suggest another editor might be more helpful

The last time someone not on ABC read a poem I'd wrote (was for them to give their wife, so my fault) they said I should be doing greeting cards. Was compliment. Felt CRUSHED

written...

Hey, I'm quite happy to give feedback on stories about surreal stuff with magic in them, because so far as I know it is only Drew and me that write that sort of thing...

In general, I am happy to give anyone detailed feedback on a piece, provided that they
(a) genuinely want proper feedback, with a view to solving problems in a piece or improving it,
(b) accept that they may not agree with everything I say and don't fall out with me over personal differences - my views are not law, but having done the equivalent of an agent or publisher's slush pile, I do have a good idea of what is going to get at least read to the end before they consider rejection / acceptance
(c) realise that I have a pretty full-time full-time job and it takes time to read stuff with a thoughtful eye and
(d) buy me or Liana a drink at whatever abc function we happen to be at.

This is not me setting myself up as some kind of writing genius, but I do happen to not be bad at constructive feedback. No poems though, I haven't the mechanism.

I'll do the poems...

you can buy us both a drink.

*hears cogs creaking into motion*

*gets out old jar and sticks label on "Liana and Andrew's drink fund"*

as for the idea of people's comments on work ... of course these are always welcome and interesting and a writer ought to be very grateful people have taken the time to respond ... BUT ... what is useful is another matter ...

i have had some tremendously helpful feedback on my work over the years ... in writers groups and specifically from my mentor ... that have made my writing improve ... i have also had feedback that has not been useful ...

the trick is to see what is useful and discard what isn't ... that is a skill that has to be learnt ... in the early days of writing it can be partic difficult to see what is good and not so good in one's own work ... the craft of writing is to begin to see that ...

then it's a bit of a darwinian whatsit going on ... you select as you see which bits have the best material and after a while you begin to write that way ... the worse bits get fewer and the gooder bits get morer ...

in terms of respecting opinions ... i have strong ideas about whose opinion i respect and i think it is rare that i would take seriously some crit that came from someone i had little respect for ...

as for the this

i am not sure i agree ... after all editors and agents who both give editorial support and are in the business of making your writing better are not, as far as i can see, usually writers ...

As a writer...

Do you write to please...

writers

or

readers

Writers speak with their pens...readers speak with their $

The reader is the final judge of good writing.

I write to please myself primarily. Obviously I like it if people connect and get something out of it, but readers wont help me improve.

Well, dollars don't necessarily = quality. Surely not. Sales have never been the measure of higher art. We are talking about different products here. We all know clever marketing can make anything sell well...but it's rarely made the best literature sell well. If you write purely to satisfy the trend or appetite of the reader, who in turn is the puppet of the marketeer, then that's different from being true to yourself as a writer. I will never be able to write to formulae, not for all the money in the world. If the appetite of the reader coincided with a genuine work of mine...that's a different matter.
I have discovered, through posting some of my erotic fiction pieces and poems on non-writer oriented sites, that people are turned on in a big way by some of my stuff and ask for more, some of the feedback I have had is fantastic..but I wont force myself to plough on and shovel something out for the sake of a cash reward. I want to be true to myself in what I say...I couldn't bear it otherwise...couldn't bear for something to be on the shelf that was not fully from the heart, that I can be happy seeing there when I am in my final days, that is testimony to the way I feel about this thing called life.

I suppose it depends on your goals as a writer. My goal is to sell it and make a living some day. With that in mind, $ is an important ingredient in success. I have no desire to be a starving artist. Every top notch artist and author and musician I know is making $ on their art. That's not to say one can't be a good artist and not make money however. (that's a double negative or something)...Thumbing your nose at money for "arts" sake is naive from a professional standpoint.

Well The Sun columnists make money too, and I wouldnt want to write like that.

As Ems says, dollars dont equal quality... I made some pretty good money writing porn, but I tell you what... it's in an assumed name. I wouldnt want to be remembered for it, but it's the most money I ever made from writing.

Guess it's all down to what you want to achieve.

WOW!!!!

Sun columnists are journalist trying to make a living just like everybody else, they write what is making them money. There's no shame in that, nor in writing pornography. Perhaps the reason you wouldn't want to be know as a porn writer leads back to my central argument, it may hinder your chance to be taken seriously as a writer and make money in mainstream literature publishing...maybe??? I don't know, you tell me.

No.

That ok?

of course it is....

Good. 'Cos I cant really argue your point...as you have taken this debate off on a tangent about money and art, when the original point was miles away from that?
I have no snobbery at all about it which you seem to assume ... art is in the eye of the beholder + several other time worn cliches...
the reason I dont want to be known as a porn writer is because the porn is easy as hell to write, and whilst it no doubt pleases the intended target (bored truck drivers with the attention span of a gnat and a mistrust of words over three syllables long), that isnt what I'm proud of writing. Thats all. Nothing else.
Making money from poetry is astonishingly hard... ask simon armitage who still has his day job despite being one of the best selling poets in the country.

Its not always about money you know...

O-tay.

R's best friend at call centre crashed car on driving lesson. Only one driving instructor on island. Driving instructor was suddenly always about to have tea, go shopping, lie down, whenever friend randg up to make another appointment for lesson. Friend got scooter

Friend left island, got job in certain newspaper, gets paid more than manager of call centre :0)

This buying drinks at ABC events? Supposing can't get to event? Would you accept postal orders?

soz
not good at jokes

Take your point Fish, but ordinary writing will not get the time of day from agents or editors to be polished up. These people will work on something that already glitters and sparkles.

What I think we are talking about (though yours is a valid and good point) is how best to improve a piece of writing to get it up to the sort of standard where you might be happy to submit it, or just happy with it. In my experience, when you show your writing to a reader, you don't get much more back than 'I liked it' or at best 'I really liked this bit' - what you don't get is 'this bit didn't work because your viewpoint isn't quite right, and see, you've used this word twice in quick succession, so why not change this to this'

You do also make a very good subtle point about the danger of following some bad criticism. It takes a lot of strength and confidence to be able to read some crit and work out what is valid and consider making the changes, and which is misguided and stick with what you have. Sometimes the mixture can even be found in the same piece of crit. Only you as the writer knows what the heart of the piece is, and you tamper with that at your peril.

I once had some very detailed feedback on a piece I was trying to publish and did all the rewrites as guided, but although the writing got stronger each time as a piece of work, it got less and less like an Andrew Pack piece of work and finally I just didn't want to have a piece published in my name that didn't feel like it was much to do with me anymore.

Fay - I would accept a bottle of Jago by post, as I understand you live in Scotland these days.

fair do's andrew ... at what you might call the workshop stage then probably the best advice comes from writers ...

i have taught creative writing on and off for years and sometimes people come in who are seriously misguided about the quality of their work ... they will often say ... but my mother/aunt/brother/godfather loved that piece! ...

this is firm warning about asking family members to read your stuff ... (unless they are emma's dad) ...

i have seen people in classes getting so upset when others crit their work even when it is gentle and constructive ... it's very personal i suppose and in order to get objective about it a writer has to stop thinking about their latest piece as their baby wearing a halo ...

interesting about your piece that had the life bashed out of it ... i have seen that happen on here with rewrites sometimes ... and certainly experienced doing that to work myself ... i think when it comes to accepting and sifting crit it is only confidence, intuition and experience which mean you can take what you need and bin the rest ...

Last night I got an interesting bit of feed back from mi Dad, he is a reader but not a writer. Having read the last story I wrote my mum called up to say" your Da says can you move the cow and the little boy further away from the case, he is worried about them getting hurt" I felt mean laughing, but did anyway. I think he may have missed the point when I asked for critical help.

Fortunately my brother is a very good writer and edits for me. Just grammar I wish I had a "Turd Polisher" as my editor friend calls herself. But maybe then I would rely on that and not rework pieces.

When I first started my MA I offered to hand in in the first week as nobody else was much up for it. I handed in what I thought to be my 'best' bit of writing, a section of the novel I'd written before the course began.

I turned up to the class, not smug or anything, but at least a little confident that it would be okay, and got a slaughtering. It was amazing. There were loads of comments about the fact that I tried to force the reader to think something, rather than just put the story out there and let them make their own conclusions. That I was making judgements on my characters even though it was in third person and that instead of engaging with my main character everyone felt distanced from her because she felt sorry for herself.

I spent the entire class laughing and saying stuff like, 'back to the drawing board'. I then went home and sat in stunned silence for about four hours while I waded through all the comments on my manuscripts.

That first class, despite my pride taking a severe bashing, made the entire year brilliant. I became much more aware of the reader and how the reader doesn't want to be forced into reading the way the writer wants them to.

So, my (long drawn out) point being that taking criticism and spending time thinking over it and not reacting emotionally straight away is one of the best things you can do for your writing. It took me about two weeks after that first workshop to write anything else, but when I did it was stronger.

That said, sometimes I got given terrible advice that I knew didn't ring true and just ignored it.

Also, some writers just don't respond well to workshop conditions and write much better with imput from themself and nobody else.

I agree with that, I think it's important never to have a knee-jerk reaction to anything anybody says or to start defending yourself that you are missunderstood. Everybody has a right to have an opinion on your work. Best just to keep quiet and think about it quietly by yourself and either take on board what people say or reject it.

I agree with what Andrew was saying. I think you yourself are your best critic and I believe the best way to improve is to read a lot and to write a lot.

reading a lot is the best way I think. I find I can't write when I'm not reading loads of books at the same time.

(and celebrity magazines but I'm not sure if that counts...?)