Oh, the conceit. You see, I am just trying to plant seeds where they might do some good.
Why does everybody have to work when there's nothing that needs to be done?
To tell you the truth, I was surprised that anybody at all could see what I was getting at. It gives me great hope that a few people did. The hecklers are irrelevant. I dare say this thread will attract hecklers too. Like pepsoid I uphold their right to shit, but I can't help wondering whether it's necessary to do it in my garden.
The person I'd most like to contact is my younger self. Once I could have done something with the insights I now have. How many others feel that way? One of the ironies of life is that you only have the knowledge and wisdom you needed in your twenties and thirties when it's time to say goodbye. Can't help feeling I'm not the first to have noticed that!
Stefano | July 20, 2012 - 18:51
ABC seems an odd place to look. Like sending out a randomly addressed mail shot.
FTSE100 | July 20, 2012 - 20:33
I'd be wasting my time with politicians. Economists seem to be a dead end. On ABC I got signs of intelligent life! Might have been a long shot but it worked!
pepsoid | July 20, 2012 - 21:13
Did we need to be wise in our 20s?
pe
ps
oid
"the progenitor"
"the art of tea"
"that's an odd courgette"
FTSE100 | July 20, 2012 - 21:56
I did! So as not to waste my time with dead ends, apart from anything else.
FTSE100 | July 21, 2012 - 03:07
The missing part of the jigsaw is - what are people for if not for selling things to each other? I deeply suspect that at this stage of evolution, that's all they are good for.
pepsoid | July 21, 2012 - 05:48
What a bleak world view... people obviously are good for more, but it seems our western governments are determined for us to believe otherwise...
How can we change this?
pe
ps
oid
"the progenitor"
"the art of tea"
"that's an odd courgette"
FTSE100 | July 21, 2012 - 10:51
Maybe it's just that human society drains all the worth from its members.
Education has to 'meet the needs of industry'. Heard that one? So that's what education is for!
Thankfully a few people disagree. Like pensioners who do O.U. degrees. Presumably they aren't trying to make themselves fit for industry?
Many in Parliament have law degrees. If their own education was simply vocational training - training for a job in the courts or Parliament - it's no wonder they can't tell the difference.
Not so funny that the response of most people to my second paragraph would be, "of course education must meet the needs of industry. The kids have to support themselves. They want jobs."
Maybe people in their natural state are fit for better things, but once they've been trained you just can't tell any more.
pepsoid | July 21, 2012 - 20:45
Being someone who works in education, I certainly am familiar with that viewpoint!
Perhaps a little preferable is... "Education has to meet the needs of society."
Although personally I aim towards... "Education has to meet the needs of the individual."
Not sure the government would agree with me...
Have you heard of 'Every Child Matters'? Following the Children Act 2004, it's about ensuring the following 5 outcomes are met for children (in education and other children's services):
1. Being healthy
2. Staying safe
3. Enjoying and achieving
4. Making a positive contribution
5. Achieving economic well-being
These are officially the 5 main things we should be looking to instill our children. On the surface they make sense, and I would like to think education is geared towards instilling these things. Unfortunately I tend towards believing that, bottom line, the education system is "training" our children for industry (i.e. the capitalist machine), but hopefully there are enough individuals in education (including myself, he asserts!) who strive towards instilling a greater, deeper sense of purpose and aspiration. If children/people can be healthy, stay safe, be happy, achieve the things they truly want to achieve... and yes, no one's an island, we are members of society and should also be looking towards "making a positive contribution"... and like or not, we do live in a society where "economic well-being" (getting a job or being securely self-employed) is something we need to at least be prepared for... then won't this work out best for individuals and society as a whole?
Money is made, businesses are run, etc... but putting the primary emphasis on individual happiness and fulfillment will be the fuel for it all.
pe
ps
oid
"the progenitor"
"the art of tea"
"that's an odd courgette"
Zalgradis | July 25, 2012 - 00:14
Reality seems to be forged by whatever/whoever has the strongest mind.
FTSE100 | July 25, 2012 - 02:26
Reality, for most people, is the conventions of the society they live in.
Can you tell me (without thinking) which of the following are real and which just arbitrary conventions?
a) At a roundabout you give way to the right.
b) There are seven days in a week.
c) There are twelve months in a year.
d) There are four seasons in a year.
e) The tax year ends on April 5th.
f) The new year begins on January 1st.
g) Your electricity billing company has the right to enter your house.
h) The police have the right to enter your house.
i) A fetus has the right to life.
j) A woman has the right to choose.
k) Red means stop and green means go.
l) Finders, keepers.
m) Mirtazapine is an anti-depressant medicine. (To save you Yahooing it, just assume that's what Yahoo would tell you.)
n) The world doesn't owe you a living.
o) Beggars can't be choosers.
p) We must end the culture of dependency amongst the unemployed.
q) We must end the government's culture of dependency (it must make its money from investments, not by demanding taxes.)
r) Devolution would be good for Scotland.
s) Devolution would be good for Liverpool.
t) Everybody must contribute to society.
u) Everybody must contribute to ABCtales.
v) Devolution would be good for Little Drybrook (pop. 31)
w) Cannabis is illegal.
x) The national minimum wage is £6.08 an hour.
y) Capitalism sucks.
z) The novel is dead.
Can't be bothered to think of any more at the moment.
Anybody care to venture an answer? There is only one significantly difficult one (I think). Note that the question isn't whether the statements are true or false, or whether they are groovy or ungroovy, but real or not real.
pepsoid | July 25, 2012 - 07:09
Isn't the opposite of real not-real? I ask not to be facetious, but because the first example leads me to think it is an arbitrary convention (I think), but often not adhered to. So I think we need 3 options:
real
not-real
arbitrary convention
Anyway...
a) arbitrary convention, often not-real
b) arbitrary convention
c) arbitrary convention
d) arbitrary convention
e) arbitrary convention
f) arbitrary convention
g) not-real...?
h) real... under particular circumstances
i) depends on your moral viewpoint
j) see above
k) arbitrary convention (although often expressed (more-or-less) in nature)
l) real - in a literal sense
m) real (if that's the definition!)
n) real - the world doesn't "owe" you anything
o) not-real/arbitrary convention - a pointless phrase which is literally untrue
p) not-real - there's no "must" about it - depends on your moral/political inclination
q) see above
r) we can't possibly know (not really) until it happens
s) see above
t) Perhaps (perhaps) everybody "should," but I really don't like this word "must"!
u) see above
v) I know not of this "Little Drybrook" of which you speak
w) Depends where you live
x) ?
y) In many ways... real!
z) Obviously not
So I have to ask... what, in your opinion is the significantly difficult one?
pe
ps
oid
"the progenitor"
"the art of tea"
"that's an odd courgette"
FTSE100 | July 25, 2012 - 09:53
I listed 26 things that have no reality, meaning, validity, sense or whatever in the absence of human society.
Forget devolution, just try to define Scotland in a way that is independent of human culture or society or whatever. How will the next species to take over the Earth ever be able to sense where the border between England and Scotland is? Or even know that the Northern tip of our island is fundamentally different from the Southern part? Perhaps they will decide it's all of a piece. Maybe they'll have eight different principalities called Snog, Marry, Stilbestrol, Morecambe, Wise, Soylent Green, Trout and Fingerpuppet. Who knows? No good asking them what became of Scotland, even if you speak their language, they won't know what you're talking about.
To put it more succinctly: physical geography is the work of god; political geography is the work of man.
Perhaps the next species to take over the Earth will decide that (metaphorically, in the way we use the phrase) the world does owe them a living. Perhaps they will decide that beggars can be choosers. It's their choice. Neither phrase states a verifiable truth. Maybe they won't think in a way that makes either phrase meaningful to them. The phrases and the ideas they embody are human inventions.
If you read through the list again, I think you'll see that the next species to take over the Earth will not be able to detect that the ideas ever existed, let alone determine the truth or falsity of the statements.
A clue about the difficult one: I deliberately used the word mirtazapine (the name of a chemical) rather than Zispin or Remeron or any of the other trade names of the same chemical. Getting the answer to this one will repay your efforts a thousand-fold!
If our supposed inheritors of the Earth (all we can say about them is that they will be meek) discover this chemical and have the same physiology as humans ... then what?
pepsoid | July 26, 2012 - 07:26
I love the way you think/the questions you raise!
Must admit, I didn't directly think of your 26 'things' in this way - but since you pointed it out, it's obvious! We see things through the Spectacles of Human Culture, most of us being unaware we are wearing these spectacles. Like we are unaware, on a slightly smaller level, we are wearing the Spectacles of Modern Western Capitalism. Human culture is arbitrary - completely - which is perhaps something of a truism, but worth our while remembering nonetheless. The way things are is not the way things have to be.
Re your mirtazapine question... are you referring here to the fact that there are 2 levels of arbitrariness/non-reality? No, wait... 3 levels... The chemical itself, without a name, is a human construct... the name 'mirtazapine' is a human construct... and the trades names are human constructs... do I get the gist?
If the inheritors of the Earth discover this chemical and have the same physiology... they will doubtless call it something else... and will they have the same perception of "depression" as us? Will they even see "depression" as a bad thing, which needs to be suppressed, through chemical or other means?
Hmm...
pe
ps
oid
"the progenitor"
"the art of tea"
"that's an odd courgette"
Stefano | July 27, 2012 - 01:35
Popular perception: medicines are substances that cure specific illnesses.
Fact: maybe medicines do exist in heaven. On earth they don't. Instead we have to feed patients chemicals (including 'natural' substances, groovy herbs, and so on) any one of which will have a variety of effects, some good and some bad. (e.g. gets you drunk (good); gives you a hangover (bad).)
Mirtazapine is a chemical. If you feed it to humans it makes them feel different (not 'normal'). Some depressed people say the drugged state is preferable to the un-drugged state. Therefore we can pretend that mirtazapine is a medicine for depression.
It seems like a subtle distinction but is a great yawning chasm in perception.
Philosophers might like to consider medicines as the Platonic ideals and chemicals sold by drug companies as the flawed approximations.
How about that?
pepsoid | July 27, 2012 - 07:20
So many questions/points of contention! Let's tackle a few as they come into my head, until my little girl resumes intense yabberation...
Firstly...
"Philosophers might like to consider medicines as the Platonic ideals and chemicals sold by drug companies as the flawed approximations."
Yes! This is kind of the crux, isn't it? If course, even Platonic ideals are arbitrary... and I think arbitrariness is the crux of this thread. We call things "medicines" because that is what we call them. The chances are, if a label says something contains "fluxopan" or "zenitwank" or whatever (don't bother Googling these words), then it does... but that doesn't lessen the arbitrariness of these labels.
What is a "tree"? What is an "ice lolly"? What is a "bench" or a "head" or a "grain of sand"? Platonic ideals don't exist, because there is no pure version of anything. Everything is definition, labels assigned by humans according to human... definition. It's all circular, and beyond the human sphere there are no words or definitions for anything.
Nothing is pure.
pe
ps
oid
"the progenitor"
"the art of tea"
"that's an odd courgette"
FTSE100 | July 28, 2012 - 15:02
The smallest computer that will predict, with complete accuracy, the future of the universe is the universe itself. The time it will take to compute the results is: from the beginning of the universe until the time the events happen.
God | July 28, 2012 - 15:06
That is, of course, correct, but far too much for humans to understand. It will just sound like funny words to them. Cute but meaningless sentiments.
You expect too much. Keep your own counsel and we'll speak when you arrive in the afterlife.
FTSE100 | July 28, 2012 - 15:12
I want to know now.
God | July 28, 2012 - 15:17
Be patient. Knowing will not help you in your present situation. I have already confirmed your statement. The rest you have worked out for yourself. I am simply suggesting that you keep it to yourself. It won't bring you happiness, success, fame, money or anything else to pass the knowledge on. Nor will it help anybody else.
FTSE100 | July 28, 2012 - 15:25
What if I'm attacked by satans?
God | July 28, 2012 - 15:28
You are more likely to be attacked by Saturns. Saturn is a very aggressive planet. :)
andrea | July 28, 2012 - 15:43
You want to watch them humens, as well...
http://www.ukauthors.com
God | July 28, 2012 - 22:20
Suntan can be pretty painful if you do it for too long. I'd recommend spray-on satans for best effect.
Archie_Macjoyce | July 28, 2012 - 22:38
Wow!!! Are you really God?
As in, like, THE God?
God | July 28, 2012 - 23:09
Of course I am, my son. Why would you doubt it? We've had broadband in Heaven for months now.
FTSE100 | July 29, 2012 - 06:26
How can I be saved, O Lord?
God | July 29, 2012 - 06:33
Saved from what?
FTSE100 | July 29, 2012 - 06:36
I'm not sure. Religious people always want to be saved from something. Death, maybe. Or taxes.
God | July 29, 2012 - 07:34
Everybody dies. You'd think they'd have noticed.
andrea | July 29, 2012 - 10:35
Oh Lawd, I want to be saved from false gods...
http://www.ukauthors.com
Archie_Macjoyce | July 29, 2012 - 14:28
Goody goody gumdrops, it's God, it's God, it's God, oh my God, it's like, actually GOD himself, I'm so excited, it's actually him, it's God, he's been my hero for like, EVER!!!!
Hallelujah!
It's God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God Ketamine God God God God God God God God God
God | July 29, 2012 - 14:50
You're asking for a good smiting. I'll blow up your head with nitro ketamine.
Only joking. I'm not that sort of God. One thing about heaven - the drugs are out of this world. And you can have them every day without getting addicted. I smoke twenty cigarettes a day and - no addiction at all. If I was addicted I'd probably be smoking twenty a day.
sorcerer | July 30, 2012 - 02:15
I have always wondered.
FTSE100 | July 31, 2012 - 04:10
The fact that most of what you 'know' is just arbitrary stuff made up by humans is an uncomfortable realisation for a lot of people.
For most, their education simply consisted of memorising things that people have said or done. Outside the context of a particular society, it's worthless.
Try explaining to the inheritors of the earth how wonderfully wonderful Latin is, how fascinating Olly Cromwell was, what fabulous ideas Tom Paine had, what super plays Shakespeare wrote, how lovely is the law of tort. They'll yawn and demand stories about their own species.
You'd have been better off learning to peel a frog. At least you'd have a trade to fall back on.
pepsoid | July 31, 2012 - 07:00
Google... "peel a frog"...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bberg73/2163406731/
I love t'Internet!
pe
ps
oid
"the progenitor"
"the art of tea"
"that's an odd courgette"