I found George Bush's speech very moving

oh dear... tony, with all respect, please learn something about george bush's political leanings before you gush about how much you admire him. You fell for the rhetoric. Nothing to be ashamed of, thousands if not millions of americans did it... i have no doubt at all that saddam was an evil bas.tard, but i do not profess to admire him. There's a difference.

... bugger, meant to say - and regarding that verrrrrrrrry long list that you are going to be googling for... have a look and see how many of them America supplied with the capability to create evil mayhem in the first place. Betcha its more than 3/4.

it was MEANT to get you that way tony...

I certainly am english thank you... and i have read a great deal... and I watch his politics. I do not fall for the violin strings stuff, thats all. next?

I've been reading this thread with interest.. tried desperately to stay away from it as I feel I have rather strong opinions regarding this matter. I'm afraid, Tony D, and with all due respect, ..what you have been spouting on these Bush threads over the last few days smells quite potently of horsesh.it, to be frank. Apart from a kind of vague un-critical sympathy for Bush I cannot see that you have actually SAID anything regarding his interests in Iraq and Afghanistan at all. And these are, of course, the biggest 'problems' affiliated with his presidency at the moment (he is pre-election, of course, and faith and patriotism and all that other garbage are always strongest in times of desparation, even he is not too stupid to understand this) I admire you for at least sticking your neck out on a forum that (let's face it) seems to be definitely anti-Bush BUT I have a basic problem with how blindly admiring you are of this 'special relationship' we have with America. This strikes me, and I'm sorry to say it, as ineptly thought out political garbage. When Bush speaks of any 'special relationship' he is appealing to cultural similarities and the innate 'goodness' supposedly present in any 'right-thinking' members of these two societies. It is pure RHETORIC. What you are completely forgetting is that this is about GOVERNMENTS and not at all about the ideals of your average individual.. about me and you, or America or Britain. I may be idealistic myself, but I do happen to think that it is not simply a matter of wrong and right. And that a supposedly 'good' nation can save a nation 'in trouble' ..there is so much more to it than that. If you want to know what's really happening in Iraq, f**king go there and talk to people or look things up on the net. Of course Afghanistan and Iraq are 'in trouble' ..it stands to reason that they be in order for the American and British military to be supposedly 'freeing' them from tyranny. I'm inclined to think that this strange rationality regarding your idea of '..well, you go and live there and see how tough it is..' wouldn't have existed had America not bombed the f*ck out of them in the first place. This, in itself, puts these countries on the world stage (in media terms) ..so what you're asking is simply the impossible. Sorry, but I'm of the opinion that these countries would be a hell of a lot better off had we actually approached them via truly diplomatic means.. and not simply because we have the military might to make a statement that no one can ignore. But what's done is done. I would also ask you to check your facts concerning where and what pies the American Govt has been concerned with over the last decade or so (you can go back further if you wish). Trust me, you'll find that what they have done to secure their own interests, the vast majority of it, can only be seen as appalling. I won't start on about it.. because I wouldn't finish. Again, with all due respect, but that's how I feel. 'Opposition is true friendship' and all that. [%sig%]

But Bush has a nice hairstyle, so lets all be fans. Except he doesnt. Bugger.

ha.. thanks. You better get lifting those dumb bells tony... youre going to need them...

I've been looking for a dumb belle to take advantage of for years. Now you let onthat Neil has some in his gym!

I seem to remember Rita, that Storming Norman was within 10 miles of Bhagdad and was desperate to go get Sadman Insane but was stopped, not so much by Daddy Bush, but by the UN saying there was no mandate to capture him, just to free Kuwait from his control. The bitch we had in charge here at the time was no better either.

John Major a bitch?

ALL tories are bitches.

Fair enough.

Well, I am new here, but would like to add my two cents worth on the the President of my country: He is a silver-spoon fed child of an old oil tycoon who have never done without in their lives. They are arrogant, self-absorbed and in my personal opinion do nothing but embrass this country and lower the standards of living and take away from the middle-class and poverty level to line their own silk pockets. My belief is that this war Junior is raging is not for the safety of the world, or to rid it of terrorism but to finish a job Senior did not have the balls to do because of public pressure. Where, I beseech all Americans, is the pressure now that we need to apply it?????????? If it were not for the allies helping we would probably have gone under months ago. Until this tyrant is stopped this needless war will continue and destroy peoples in all countries and our ways of life. War only begats war and more hatred which in turn begats more terrorism and death and poverty for all except the rich and powerful. JMO Rita Harrison

Hi everyone :-) to reiterate - I did not support the invasion of Iraq nor any of UKs foregn wars/military interventions of the last 40 years- however i can see threre is a moral case for the invasion - and if, according to Tan people who supported that invasion are complicit in the mureder of those who have been killed on account of that war - then people like myself and tan who would have preferred the invasion not to happen are complicit in the murder of Saddams maany victims - likewise Afghanistan - Serbia etc - BTW - If i remember correctly some of the usual peace lovers wanted intervenion in the Serbian/Balkan stuff - I, being consistent- didnt Unless anyone else has anything new to add- i'll gladly let tan or anyone else have the last word - rare for me on a thread I've started - but I think this one's had a pretty good run - thanx to all the contributors :-)

I don't believe George Bush has a single sincere hair on his head or a single bone in his body that is on the level. He reminds me of a second-hand car salesman. Tony (Cook not Dee), the reason they have such incredibly low turnouts at election time is because a lot of them aren't allowed to vote. In Florida, for instance, ex-felons can't vote, which means that 31% of ALL black men are prohibiting from voting. So when they removed the names of felons from the voter roll, they kept thousands of black citizens out of the voting booth. Amusingly enough, George Bush's sister-in-law was caught by immigration officials attempting to smuggle $19,000 worth of jewellery into the country without declaring or paying tax on it, which is a felony in its own right, although seeing as she's married to Governor Jeb Bush, the charges were dropped. Back to black Floridians. 90% of them are Democrats, so Al Gore received 90% of their votes; or rather 90% of them who were ALLOWED to vote. It doesn't stop there, though, for when the Bush brothers removed thousands of black voters from the electoral roll, they also instructed the database company - a company with strong Republican ties - to even include people with "similar" names to those of actual felons! And an 80% match was all they asked for when checking peope with the same dates of birth or even social security numbers as known felons. Thus thousands of legitimate voters were barred from voting on election day. In Miami 66% of those denied the right to vote were black. In Tampa 54% of those wiped off were black. Final figure: 173,000 Floridians were permanently wiped off the voter rolls. Let's move on to Texas, shall we? Well, without going into too much detail, a false list was supplied so that even people with misdemeanours such as parking violations and littering were culled. So some of them may have jolly good reasons for not turning up to vote for Al Gore.

well said rita...can you convince a few more fellow americans? you see, as far as i can see.. you and your fellow countrymen didnt even elect Bush... it was a rigged election. Sounds more like something that would go in in a dictatorship than a democratic country. I dont know how Bush has the bare face to talk about justice and fairness with his track record. Did he not dodge military call up by using his family money? Too scared to fight. America HAS to stop the way that politicians can get any appointment they damn well want as long as they have enough money... its disgusting.

yet again you have shown yourself to be completely incapable of forming or maintaining a logical thought process. don't forget to floss this morning, i've heard those little widgets you're so fond of have big scabs - a result of sticking them where they ill belong (not being a competitive soul i'm not in the least bit bothered about having the last word or not)

Word

I get the feeling you're a Democrat Rita.

They all let us down, Rita. Every last one of the sods. Not worth voting for, any of 'em.

Lots of the things you say about your president could equally apply to our disgraceful royal shower of crap Rita. There is much to be admired in the American way of life and obviously much to be despised as there is in the British way too. At least you get to fire your head of state every few years, we have to live with the bastard blood-suckers here permanently.

How come you get to post swears Mississippi? Have you got a special dispensation for persistence? I agree with you actually. It's very easy to sit here and rubbish the US but the last few months haven't included Britain's finest hours either.

It's a matter of context Argy, I wasn't actually swearing but being definitive.

That's what it will be then. I understand now.

Rita, swearing is neither obligatory or otherwise, it's more to do with ones propensity for cursing, and avoiding the filter that removes certain verboten words. I tend to be uncouth at times, a failing that makes me wince regularly. I suppose that eventually we all develop an on-line persona that we probably feel obliged to support, in my case it has rough edges. Argy has obviously fallen foul of the 'pooh, bum, willy' filter as somebody with delicate sensibilities labelled it. Personally I think it's a bit silly having such a filter on a writers site but I suppose the damagement have to be seen to give a cursory nod toward the acceptability police.

I'm touched by the "special relationship" too; it's about all we've got. I remember watching a documentary about all the Texan lads who died in an incident at Monte Casino where they were virtually sent to their death on an impossible mission. The Americans may actually be the only nation on earth who don't despise us. So, a thumbs up here for the special relationship, but not for the present policies.

I think after the battle of Hastings our leaders lost their appetite for leading from the front. The point was not lost on Harold. Speaking of which, where IS he lately? No doubt composing a diatribe about bullies.

I reproduce here my apology to Liana B4 I start reading the overnight posts, just want to say Liana that thinking about our debate yesterday I was wrong to question your 'reading skills'. My position was contradictory in that I should have been more qualified in my praise of GB, given I don't know that much about him. Though I still retain an instinctive sympathy and support for him, particularly as his pals with my mate Tony B. So I apologise Liana, and may I say my already high regard for your intellect and debating abilities has increased even further, tho I suspect we still disagree on most things :-) having read end of thread just want to add yes Bush is not the type of politician I would probably vote for in UK - I am a 'New Labourite' whose favrite PMS in my lifetime are Tone and Harold W. however, I am a great fan odf Us and instinctively tend to support them , and to talk about rigged elections when you consider huseins iraq and the talibans afghanistan shows there is rigged and rigged and I still think most of the anti-bush people would do far better marching against the many real tyrants and corrupt govvts in the world on a scale odf decncy and honesty I would give US and UK amongst the highest marks in the world, only probably some Scandinavian countries and a few others beating us-

Firstly, you dont need to apologise Tony... secondly, if you admire americans as a people, do something to help... george bush is generally *not* admired in the states, they need to get rid of him. I sincerely hope that they will... as tony cook said though, (and this *is* a huge generalisation for which i apologise to rita and allen banks) americans just dont protest... they are not used to being oppressed, their lives are comfortable and they live in (rather less than before admittedly) security over there... if something doesnt rock their boat, why should they bother doing anything about it? In Europe, people are more cynical. They ask "Why?" and "How?" of their politicians. The politicians here dont rely on having pockets of cash to be able to break into central government and start making a difference.. this, more than anything, should stop in the USA.... i cant see it happening though, and that, is the biggest crime of all. A rigged election, is a rigged election... it cannot ever, be a democratic decision.

Liana, why do you think people in the States have , in genearl, such comfortable lives- because to a great extent, there are of course certain questions of national resources etc, they live in a substantially (not completely)free, democratic country. It's you and the fellow Bush knockers who need to consider how far they are helping the Ameican people with their actions, I'm quite comfortable with my attitude thank u. This 'rigged' business is laughable - talk about clutching at Chads - if Gb really was so bad, there were plenty of Democrats out there who should/could/would have got off their asses to vote. I've no idea of the figures, but presumably tens of millions of Americans voted for Bush. Anyway, he's up for re-election - you know those quaint things they didnt have in Iraq & Afghanistan (ever fancied living under the Taliban Liana and Rita?) - so if he's so bad then let the US vote him out - I await the election with interest - what's the current opinion polls Liana I suggest they show GB has a good chance of winning demonstrating how off-beam your 'Guardinista' whinging is :-)

Asking if I fancy living under the Taliban is ludicrous Tony, as I suspect you well know... I am in no doubt whatsoever that it is better to live in America than Afghanistan - to imply oitherwise is fatuous in the extreme, and also indicative of the rhetoric gobbling done by so many... And please dont fling hoary cliched old newspaper insults at me - I dont buy a newspaper. I read them all, online as its free. The election WAS rigged, its a clear fact.. and yeah, hes up for re election. Lets hope America can do something about him this time - but as he manipulated the vote LAST time, its as much a gamble this time as last.

Odd how people's 'gut instincts' differ, isn't it? I just look at GB and shudder...in fact I do my best not to look at him at all. Maybe someone should start a thread - The day your 'gut instinct' proved you wrong (or right).

of course it was a wind up question Liana - and am glad you read a wide variety of newspapers - so why dont you spend more time banging on against the various Muslim/African/Asian countries that harm their citizens human rights far more than Bush's USA

*gives up* Tell you what tony, never mind.

There's more to life than sucking the c.ock of your self-appointed superiors tony dee. You'll knacker your knees with all that genuflexing. Does anyone recall who it was that said 'those who pay the most homage are the most oppressed' ?

There were a lot of Americans on yesterday's march - and very welcome they were too. I was behind a middle aged, middle class, white septic in full preppy gear who was carrying a sign saying ' I love my country and I'm deeply ashamed'. Good on 'im, I thought. The war is about oil and money. Just look at the Halliburton profits from Iraq already - and then tell me that no members of the Bush family or the Bush administration are not profiting from it. They are evil and corrupt and must be stopped by every peaceful and legal means at our disposal. Ron Kovic claimed yesterday that millions of Americans are getting ready to march in their own country. We'll see.

"why dont you spend more time banging on against the various Muslim/African/Asian countries that harm their citizens human rights far more than Bush's USA" I wouldn't presume to speak for Liana on this one but, for myself, I do complain about human rights abuses perpetrated by countries other than the US. I wouldn't want Robert Mugabe or the leaders of Burma coming over he to stay with the Queen either. The reason why Bush gets more flak is not because he's the worst leader in the world but because he is the leader of the world's only superpower. The US has a huge influence over many things other than the daily lives of people living in the US. I don't think Bush's domestic policies are much better than his foreign policies but I'm happy to accept that, while this is interesting, it isn't really any of my business. Other things are. Bush is responsible for my country being dragged in the war in Iraq (I doubt Blair would've done it all by himself). Bush is responsible for the continued funding and sale of arms to Israel which enables Ariel Sharon to continue to pursue his current policy towards the Palestinians, which even many Zionists regard as lunacy. Whether you agree or disagree with Bush's line, it's hard to suggest that his policies on these matters are not fundamentally important to the future security of the world.

"personal rational feelings" tony dee? A contradiction i think. You appear as incapable of rational thought as you are of having 'instincts' worth relying on in the first place. Even if you understood your own thoughts or beliefs it wouldn't matter because your heros (splutter) couldn't give a flying f.uck what you think or hadn't you noticed over there on planet stupid

Tony C- always suspicious of the oil & money line- think of the money it's costing to rebuild Iraq- I remember being told we were in the last gulf war for the oil money - have we seen much of it- the Bush family/interests may or may not be profiting - but I don't know if there's hard evidence on that - and does George Bush need the money thast much - as always the electorate can decide - unlike so many other countries- brings me on to david- it's good you protest agin Mugabe & co - but i have to say there's very little evidence of much protesting against all the corrupt regimes as I go around my daily london walks- yes the US is the most important country - that's why bush deserves more respect than afforded by some at least of the protestors yesterday - considering the enormous power Bush and US have thank goodness it's a fundamentally decent country led by a fundamentally decent govt and is on the whole a force for good in the world - and yes I was against UK getting involved in Iraq but as I repeat can see the moral case for it - ask the Iraqis who do they prefer - Saddam Hussein or the current interim regime which by next year should lead to a more democratic govt than the Hussein era

mm - try again b0llocks

is that supposed to be insulting? only an idiot would be insulted by such a limp-wristed attempt

I don't accept that Bush should be respected on the grounds that the US in an important country. So was Stalin. Although it depends what you mean by respect. The fact the 100,000 (?) people bothered to go out on the street and shout about the guy's policies suggest they respect the fact that he is an important figure and that his decisions matter. I don't accept that the US is a force for good in the world. Neither do I go along with those who say it is always a force for bad. The US is a force for the US. I think most US presidents have been fairly genuine about doing what they believe is best for their country. Sometimes it has also been good for the rest of us. World War Two is a good example. Unfortunately, from my point of view, it's one of the last examples of US foreign policy having clear positive effects. That doesn't mean I believe all subsequent US military interventions have been part of an evil conspiracy or that I would compare US presidents with corrupt and/or brutal dictators. I just think the vast majority of them have been wrong most of the time.

tony dee, i don't Have to be rude, i choose to be from time to time. i think it's rather rude to invade another country and slaughter innocent people and the unborn. Not only is it rude but it is also the action of a murderer. Being rude is as nothing compared to being a murderer. If you could get that c.ock out of your mouth for long enough you might be able to admit your complicity in these atrocities committed in our name. And i don't see any evidence of you "trying to work out" your position on this. You chose your position on this a long time ago. Obviously. And you were wrong then. For people with a wider perspective on world issues than you it was never a question of choosing between government-backed terrorism or Taliban, Hussein, etc. etc. terrorism. It's all part of the same thing except government-backed terrorism is also draped in the cloak of hypocrisy, rhetoric and maniacal arrogance. Don't you agree? It's rude to speak with your mouth full.

Ok forget my attempt at dialogue Tan - I now see that you truly are an idiot

BTW - have to go and do some teaching now - but will be back tomorrow to continue 'debate' if necessary :-)

Don't forget the mouthwash...

Oo-er. I have nothing against Americans. I do have a lot against their government. There is a clear distinction but individual septics have to take some responsibility for the state of their nation and the way in which it operates around the world. Very few of them stand up and protest. They have incredibly low turnouts at election time and they have a great deal of which to be ashamed at the moment. Of course I would not attack an individual American for the state of their nation - unless it was Dubya or Cheney or Powell etc. - but I will take them on for not doing enough about it. Fair?

*raises eyebrows* (OK I don't raise 'em, I just thought I'd put that in before someone else does.)

*Sends off for'Tony Dee 'Look at me i'm popular,do you want to be?'DVD.*

lolol