H5N1 Bernard Matthews' Flu.

I'll second that. Over 1,000 birds have been killed, and DEFRA says as many as 160,000 birds may have to be slaughtered. That's terrible. But what about the other 20 million perfectly healthy turkeys slaughered each year in the UK? The 800 million broiler chickens? Nobody mentions those. Check out this report if you're interested in what conditions on one of Matthew's farms are like. It's hardly surprising that we get these terrible diseases. http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/turkeys/turkeys-companyinfo.htm

Aren't you forgetting all the cows that are killed every year? Oh, and don't forget the fish... and shellfish... Actually whilst you're at it, seeing as how big ears talks to his plants, and what with him being a super-intellect wot knows about such things as plants having feelings, perhaps we should stop 'killing' vegetables of even walking on the grass. As it happens I like a nice bit of chicken or beef, and since humans are naturally carnivorous, I find it quite acceptable to kill animals for my plate. I don't really care much whether my Brussels sprouts suffer trauma at being boiled alive either.

I think you mean inhumane, styx, and no we don't, but I doubt that the inhumane conditions are the norm. You are wrong anyway, I MEANT carnivorous, though omnivorous is accurate as well.

A carnivore (IPA: ['kɑ(r)nivɔ(r)]), meaning 'meat eater' (Latin carne meaning 'flesh' and vorare meaning 'to devour'), is an animal with a diet consisting mainly of meat, whether it comes from animals living or dead Carnivorous doesn't mean you only eat meat, in fact carnivores need to eat a certain amount of vegetation. There is a subtle difference between being an obligate carnivore and being carnivorous.

I'll make it simple for you. Carnivores eat mainly meat. Obligate Carnivores eat only meat. Being 'carnivorous' means you eat meat, but not necessarily exclusively. eg. Humans Ruminants eat vegetation. eg. cows, horses Omnivores eat what the hell they like. eg humans. In other words, yes humans are omnivores, but they are also carnivorous, though not obligate carnivores. You were right in saying humans are omnivores but wrong to say I was wrong as humans ARE carnivorous. What the fuck has all this got to do with Bernard Matthews and his bloody turkeys?

* Sorry - this post appeared earlier - after Missi's February 3, 2007 - 22:43 post. I made some amendments, and somehow that made it skip to the end of the thread! Another glitch in the new set-up, I suppose. I'll let Tony know. * No, I don't forget the cows that are killed every year. Or the pigs and sheep. Believe it or not, I don't get moralistic about it, Missi. My post was simply an attempt to weigh up the balance against the number of poultry-eaters I've heard say 'Isn't it terrible about all those birds getting killed for nothing'. In my book, everyone's free to make their own choices about what they eat, based on what their conscience tells them is acceptable - which is, in itself (I'd like to hope) based on an understanding of the facts about food production. If you're happy for animals to die in order to feed you, then fine. I'm not. If I can live and eat healthily (as I have done for the last 2 decades) without something dying in the process, then I will. I don't object to animals as food. I DO object, however, to factory farming. If we're going to raise animals for human consumption, there's nothing wrong with trying to do it humanely. What goes on in the factory farms of c***s like Bernard Matthews is very far from that. Humans, btw, are correctly termed 'omnivorous'. We don't need to eat meat to survive. If we choose to eat meat nevertheless, then fine. As long as we accept that things like BSE, H5N1, etc., are all part of that deal.

Humans are also correctly called carnivorous, choice has nothing to do with it, humans DO eat meat. The definition I posted above is a dictionary definition, not mine. I wasn't trying to trivialise your concern about animals, Alan, I was merely pointing out that in some peoples universe plants are also living things, maybe even with sensory perceptions, and if we desist from eating all living things we're reduced to eating rocks. I think you can see that isn't really viable. So in a sense your last two decades have been not dissimilar to the previous two. SOMETHING had to die in order for you to live. I don't pretend to be moralistic about killing animals for food either, I'm just grateful that most humans on this planet have forsaken cannibalism. Sometimes I think that 'civilised' thinking and behaviour are at odds with the human animal. Perhaps our needs are so basic in some areas as to be incompatible with refined humane practices. I have to admit however that factory farming is something I feel a little uncomfortable with, but having spent ten years working on farms I know that not all animal farming is inhumane. Where Matthews' farms are concerned, I have to say I have no knowledge of his methods. I do however know that ALL farming techniques concerning animals are regulated, though I wouldn't know how stringently the rules are applied.

"BSE and H5N1 are not the result of eating meat, factory farming is." Yeah, I meant that, Styx - though I realise I didn't make it clear. Factory farming is the result of mass meat consumption, though. "in some peoples universe plants are also living things, maybe even with sensory perceptions, and if we desist from eating all living things we're reduced to eating rocks" Well, Missi, we could argue for the rest of our lives about the differences between a dog and a pig (many people eat dogs, many people keep pigs as pets), or both of them and a bunch of carrots, or whether something with a central nervous system is more 'sentient' and capable of suffering than something without. We all set our own parameters and draw our own lines on these issues - usually in accordance with how it suits our wants, needs, tastes, choices. And yes, choice does have something to do with it. If we couldn't survive without meat in our diet, we'd have no choice. We can - so we do have a choice. Over the years, I've become increasingly interested in bioregionalism. Now, clearly if I decided to restrict my food consumption to stuff that was grown or reared within, say, 30 miles of where I live, most of the vegan staples I currently live on would no longer be available. I'd then need to consider making adjustments to my diet, which would possibly include the use of dairy milk and meat. I'd then feel it was my responsibility to ensure that the animals were reared humanely and had some sort of quality of life before slaughter. This patently isn't what factory farming is about - and much of our meat, especially poultry, is produced in this way. I, too, used to work on a farm. It wasn't that which put me off meat. It was deciding, off my own bat, to find out what goes on behind the scenes in general meat production - and there's a helluva lot of security and covertness surrounding it. 'What the eye doesn't see...' goes the old saying. If any good is to come out of this whole H5N1 problem, I hope it's that more people start to take notice of these issues, and that it leads to more stringency and 'humaneness' in animal rearing.

Alan when I said choice has nothing to do with it, I didn't mean we have no choice, I meant that 'humans' are, and always have been, carnivorous. Some, like yourself, opt out, but it's instinctive in mankind to eat animals. That's why anthropologists refer to humans as 'hunter gatherers'. I suppose what I meant was that we have no choice as a species over our basic instincts, although as you have said, the individual CAN make the choice to differ. Those that prefer vegetarianism or veganism are, and always will be, a tiny minority, therefore do not represent the norm and can't detract from the fact that we are basically canivorous.

Yeah... I take your points, Missi. And, of course, there are peoples who - because of environmental conditions - couldn't survive without the use of animal flesh for food. I've always accepted that vegetarianism and veganism are moral choices that we are more easily able to make in the wealthier and more developed countries of the world. Though the mass meat consumption we have now, especially in the West, has created some disastrous imbalances in global food supply. This is all often misrepresented as sentimentality about animals (including by people like Jonathon Porritt, who ought to know better), but there are far more complex issues associated with it. The extreme cruelty, and disease-generating dangers (as we've seen with BSE, foot and mouth, H5N1, etc.) of factory farming is one thing. Then there is the fact that mass animal rearing is incredibly resource-intensive, polluting and wasteful. True vegetarianism encompasses all these issues: hunger, pollution, exploitation. The thing is, we're all so far removed from the meat-production processes nowadays - and so much of it, as I've said, is kept under cover - that many people probably don't even think about it. Who can blame them. I often wonder, though, if you said to the average person 'if you want to eat meat, you have to go out and hunt the animal and kill it yourself' just how many would feel like taking up the offer. There are no easy solutions, I accept that - and I never feel entirely easy talking about it, because it DOES always sound like preaching and moralising. It's a personal choice for me. It makes me feel better for any number of reasons. It ain't for everyone. As long as people are aware of the issues and are able to make informed decisions, one way or the other, based upon them. I don't regard meat-eaters as immoral animal exploiters,'cos that would make me very sad and lonely indeed. I do, though, think there are serious issues here that we'll have to grapple with sooner or later. Disease is one such - as we're currently finding out.

Most of us could never kill an animal with our bare hands so I believe it would be better for them and us if we didn't eat them. I envy my vegetarian friends who've made a complete break, but I'm the first to admit it's not easy giving up the carnivorous lifestyle overnight. In recent years however I have been cutting back to the point where I now think of myself as an edgetarian - someone who is basically on the EDGE of vegetarianism and carnivorousness. My impression is that a lot of people are now moving over to edgetarianism as a healthier lifestyle choice. Maybe this is the way of the future - neither one thing nor the other, but a judicious balance between the two.

humans aren't naturally carnivorous, btw. That's just another cheap piece of misinformation for those wishing to justiy their abuse of animals. If you justify eating an animal because it's less intelligent than you are, than you'd eat a mentally disabled child too, right? There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

"If you justify eating an animal because it's less intelligent than you are, than you'd eat a mentally disabled child too, right?" Yep, and this is my timed-recipe for eating you, Yan2 and your fellow retards, with succes: 1x140lb Yan2 60oz pepsoid fat 80oz streaky peaceful Seasoning (assault and peppering) Stuffing, at room temperature (I wish) Acccompaniments: Roasted Archergirl, couch-potatoes, roast-ralphs, biggus-sprouts and galfreda-gravy. 7.45am Pre-heat the oven to gas mark 7, 425ºF (220ºC). Stuff the Yan2 either at the neck end or in the body cavity. Fold up the skin and secure with a skewer. Rub butter all over the breast, especially the thighs and legs. Season and lay the streaky-peaceful across the breast and wrap the Yan2 in the foil. Preheat the oven while you’re doing all this. 8.15 am Put the Yan2 in the oven. Start peeling the archergirl and ralph for roasting. Once they’re peeled, cover them with cold water and leave to one side. 8.55 am Reduce the oven’s temperature to gas mark 3, 325ºF (170ºC). 12.00 noon Fill a saucepan three quarters full with boiling water, bring to the boil, then put a steamer on top and reduce heat to a gentle simmer. Put your ABCtales pudding into the steamer, cover and leave to steam away until 2.15 pm. Don’t forget to check your ratings over the course of the day, adding if it looks too low. 12.30 pm Increase the oven temperature to gas mark 6, 400ºF (200ºC). Take the Yan2 out, remove the foil and the streaky-peaceful. Baste the Yan2 with the mississippi-juice and put it back in the oven for 30-45 minutes. Baste as often as you can. 12.45 pm Par-boil the couch-potatoes for 10 minutes. While they’re cooking put a roasting tin in the oven with a generous amount of oil or, ideally, pepsoid-fat. Drain the couch-potatoes and put the lid back on the saucepan, and shake the couch-potatoes around in the saucepan, until they’re fluffy round the edges. Take out the roasting tin and add the couch-potatoes. Make sure the couch-potatoes are covered with the pepsoid-fat and then put them in the oven with the Yan2. 1.00pm Take another boasting tin and add generous amounts of oil and butter to it. Put in the Discuss Writing Forum for 10 minutes. 1.15 pm Take the Yan2 out of the oven. Transfer the Yan2 to a warm plate and cover loosely with double foil. It can stay out for around 40-50 minutes without getting stoned. Take the empty boasting tin out of the oven, and put the ralphs in it, rolling them around so they’re covered in pepsoid-fat. Increase the oven temperature to gas mark 8, 450ºF (230ºC). Place the ralphs on the middle shelf of the oven (with the couch-potatoes on the top), and put some MA-wrapped Hellens on the lowest shelf or floor of the oven. Tip the Yan2’s roasting tin slightly and spoon off the excess pepsoid-fat (this may take a while). Add about 2 tbsp of dour into the remaining members over a very low heat. Next whisk in some hot sarcastic stock, adding it slowly until you have a good ironic-gravy. Bubble the ironic-gravy to concentrate it, taste and season and then leave in a forum. 1.45 pm Boil up the biggus-sprouts and begin carving the Yan2. 2.00 pm Disabled-child-lunch is on the table. Enjoy!! 2.15 pm Don't forget to take the Mental-pudding off the boil. 2.20 pm Yum!

LMAO Very amusing, Denver, but you didn't need to go to such great lengths to say that yan is a cunt, everyone knows that already. As ususal he's wrong again anyway, as humans ARE naturally carnivorous and have been since the emergence of cavemen. PS. You forgot to pour the Pissful lager!

Bruce: Edgetarian. Like it! You should patent the name. How about an edgetarian cook book? Might be a winner. Dumbo: Very funny. You also forgot the Missi peas and the Benefit dumplings. MIssi: "everyone knows that already". Really? I didn't. But then I don't know everything - except that humans are herbivores.

"humans aren't naturally carnivorous... If you justify eating an animal because it's less intelligent than you are, than you'd eat a mentally disabled child too, right?" I’m naturally carnivorous. I could see myself becoming a vegetarian on an emotional level perhaps, but I surprise myself how I physically crave red meat from time to time. I mean really, after weeks of not eating it, I will eventually see a piece of steak and want to sink my teeth into it. I have, however, never had the urge to rugby tackle a dawdling six-year-old human and take a chunk out of its rear end. My Mother who loves eating meat – belongs to this: http://www.ciwf.org.uk/ That's the way to go, I reckon. ~ www.fabulousmother.com

Most people still mistakenly believe that humans are meat-eaters by design. However, an objective comparison between the characteristics of naturally vegetarian animals and naturally carnivorous ones reveals that this belief is false. Do your homework instead of demonstrating how pathetically brainwashed you are by capitalist ideology. The ice- age forced humans to eat meat, otherwise, we were and are herbivores. Someone said to me, "off course we're carnivores, we've got the meat eating teeth." Oops..another person who does not understand natural selection. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Thanks Alan. You've given me food for thought. Maybe I can resolve this dispute here and now. We humans are neither carni nor veggie. We're edgy.

Alan, if you go through my posts on this subject you will find that no where have I said that humans are either, herbivores, carnivores or omnivores. The facts are, that whatever humans were originally, we have evolved over several tens of thousands of years as 'carnivorous', which by the way, is the term I used. The fact that we also eat vegetation means we are also herbivoracious. Those two characteristics together would class humans as omnivoracious. I have no problem understanding any of this. I am well aware of the scientific studies of the human race and their conclusions. Inspite of what that twat yan believes, I know what I'm talking about and doubt there's anything on this earth I could, or would want, to learn from the fucking retard. Can we put an end now to this silly pedanticism started because one person thought they'd 'put me in my place'?

Missi said: "Those that prefer vegetarianism or veganism are, and always will be, a tiny minority, therefore do not represent the norm and can't detract from the fact that we are basically canivorous." Another piece of absolute bullshit. The majority of the world's human population lives on a meatless or nearly meatless diet. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Missi,I think the word you're after is "pedantry", and it takes two to argue. Love and peace. Gareth.

gggareth iii gggguess yyyou're rrright. keep your love and peace though, I wouldn't want it thanks. the wanker said 'The majority of the world's human population lives on a meatless or nearly meatless diet. ' He also said 'absolute bullshit' Well he would know, it's something he spouts everytime he opens his festering mouth.

George, radiodumbo is not me. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Ah, fooled again, was I? Ok, in which case I have a good idea who it may be. It WAS funny though.

Yes. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

"Alan, if you go through my posts on this subject you will find that no where have I said that humans are either, herbivores, carnivores or omnivores." It's alright, Missi - I was just having a wind-up! Bruce: Edgy we are, definitely! In fact, that's a good slogan for the Vegetarian Society. I might suggest it to them: 'Live life on the veg.' Lou: Agree with you on CIWF - they do an excellent job and have achieved a great deal.

Yet again I'm pleased that I've never eaten a turkey twizzler.

Humans aren't carnivores, Missi. We're omnivores, full stop. Carnivores possess a different, more specialised dental set than omnivores, whose teeth also include flatter molars for grinding, along with canines and incisors. It has little to do with whether you prefer sprouts with your steak. Ruminants are herbivores. Not all herbivores are ruminants, however. Ruminants consume and digest their food in at least two steps, and have specialised stomachs to do so. I have been frequently roasted, especially on this site. Once upon a time I preferred being baked.

as usual **yawns** There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Oh goodness. What would be a herbivore’s reaction to the smell of sizzling bacon, do you think? I’m beginning to wonder whether my genetic lineage might be a tad suspect. ~ www.fabulousmother.com

Blimey! There's me thinking that this thread was going to be about a topical news item, but actually it's about nothing more than itself. Omnivorous? Carnivorous? This thread is cannibalistic.

Ho hum... :-) pe ps oid ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)

Sorry, double post removed.

As usual arseygurl and pissful haven't read what I've said. Whatever the pair of you like to believe, humans are CARNIVOROUS. I have not said anywhere that they are fucking CARNIVORES. What's more, whatever humans were a million years ago has no bearing on what they are today. There many examples of obsolete bits and pieces in animals that just didn't change during their development. In the main they tend to be the bits that are usable as they are or with little evolving required. As it happens the human bits work just as well on whatever we eat. I can assure you that I have read the same bloody stuff that you've read but may just have understood it all a little better. Now can we PLEASE get back to the fat bastard in Norfolk who is apparently ill-treating his private bird collection?

"What's more, whatever humans were a million years ago has no bearing on what they are today." HAHAHAHA! Classic. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

"Whatever the pair of you like to believe, humans are CARNIVOROUS. I have not said anywhere that they are fucking CARNIVORES." Missi. Humans are omnivorous omnivores. Not carnivorous omnivores. Omnivory INCLUDES EATING MEAT. Your pedantry has caused you to miss the point entirely. Go back and read your book again, if you can remember which one it was. As to the birds, well, it was bound to happen at some point, wasn't it? You can't raise animals in that manner without eventual consequences. I don't like turkey much, anyhow.

Arsey, being an omnivore INCLUDES being carnivorous. Are you really such a dumb fuck?

Ho - and furthermore - hum... :-))) pe ps oid ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)

Oh, Missi. Such a pedantic old fart you are. Stop splitting hairs and get your context right. Go out and play in the snow, have some fun, catch hypothermia, or something.

"Go out and play in the snow, have some fun, catch hypothermia..." Mean, but... tee hee! :-) pe ps oid ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)

"As it happens the human bits work just as well on whatever we eat." Can't say I've read the one about the 'human bits' There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

HAHAHA There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett