Kate crucified | ABCtales

Fri, 2007-09-07 14:19

#2

Joe public doesn't have the full facts about the case - only what the media has reported. That's why I have no opinion on the guilt or innocence of anyone in cases like these. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Fri, 2007-09-07 14:21

#3

bobblehat2023

"It is dreadful,and as usual our govt is weedy." Our government can't intervene in a legal process in another democratic country. In fact, it couldn't interfere with the legal process if the case was actually taking place in the UK. "The Portugese are dropping Kate in it because their policing and legal system were/are inadequate." What is your evidence for this? Lots of missing children are not found in the UK. "They are both docs.They were overconfident about the risk but docs are trained to manage risk.If there had been an accident they would have sorted it out,they have the skills.If Maddy had died they would have done all the right things.Anything else is too stupid to contemplate and they are not stupid people." Is your position that doctors and clever people do not commit murders or cause accidental deaths? Are you sure?

Fri, 2007-09-07 14:47

#4

pepsoid

Ditto re Jude. pe ps oid Blogs! "the art of tea" "that's an odd courgette"

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Fri, 2007-09-07 15:37

#5

camilla

I'm saying docs don't panic and have resuss skills if there was an accidental or non accidental injury.I'm saying that the Portugese response was slow and secret when swiftness and publicity is accepted as gold standard in missing child cases .I don't actually think many small children from ordianry families known to a wide social circle do go missing in the UK.Missing kids are generally older. There was a case in the paper when I was on hols in Cornwall.Polish man only in UK one week violently raped and beat nearly to death innocent woman walking home,then assaults policeman.He will get 4 years and can't be deported.I think we get treated far less well by other countries.I think there is a double standard.Brits come last.

Fri, 2007-09-07 15:49

#6

Yan2

They've always been a little too 'motivated' for my liking. We'll see. When the power of love overcomes the love of power, we'll find peace. - Jimi Hendrix

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

Fri, 2007-09-07 16:05

#7

markbrown

Camilla, that's a fairly absurd linking of one case with another there. First off, the Portuguese legal system is the Portuguese legal system. I'm not sure that you, or any state, has the right to change the legal system of another country on the basis of one case. Second, it may be true that not many white, middle class, photogenic children go missing in the UK. Plenty of kids from other ordinary families do. And, sadly, it's statistically more likely that the perpetrator of violence towards a child is someone that they know. You can see why any investigation needs to be thorough though, surely? I'm not sure what the case you refer to has to do with your other points, unless your point is that people from other countries are all out to do violence and injustice on the poor, beleaguered Briton. By your standard, I'd say we were doing pretty well at exporting criminals to other countries. I'm not sure how many children in Vietnam or Thailand would like to be in Gary Glitter's gang, for instance. It's about crimes not countries. If you think that it's otherwise, I'd suggest doing a bit of thinking. Cheers, Mark

Fri, 2007-09-07 16:11

#8

camilla

But we all know that you get a child back quickly or... not.That is why the USA has the child alert on the motorways thing.It is what one is supposed to do.Abduction by a stranger still does happen.A pretty little child..... very valuable.As a Mother a child death is awful but to just not know if she is being hurt and then be persecuted for her loss.It reminds me of the picture of the falling man or other jumpers from WTC on 9/11.It is unbearable.Everyone has lost a child for a minute in a shop or on the beach,but only for moment.The bogeyman does exist and he shares his hobbies on the internet.The McCanns ongoing suffering is unbearable and I should think a lot of people would rather not think about it anymore.Like the picture of the falling man we would rather put it away.

Fri, 2007-09-07 16:31

#9

markbrown

Camilla, I don't think that there's any conspiracy of callousness towards the McCanns, nor do I think that an individual's response to their situation is in anyway a barometer of their individual moral or emotional standing. There's only so long you can continue to feel for someone you don't know before your concern becomes more about you and your needs than about them and their needs. The McCann case isn't a measure of the redeem-ability of the universe. It's not 'If she's found alive there is hope in the world, if she is dead everything has gone to the dogs'. It's an individual and private grief, that a couple of people have chosen to make as public as possible as a means to, what is hopefully, a good end. I suggest that a lot of people would love to think about it a lot more, for a variety of reasons, all of which are more about them than the situation. I sometimes wonder why we don't start disinterring corpses and charging a few bob a waltz with them. Cheers, Mark

Fri, 2007-09-07 17:07

#10

brooosh

Human nature being what it is, you can never be sure about anyone, but from what I've seen of the McCanns it seems to me highly unlikely that they have killed their daughter. Kate's plea for the kidnapper not to hurt Madeleine seemed to come straight from the heart, and rang true with me. You could probably fake concerned innocence for a few days, but I just don't think you could keep it up for 120 odd days under the intense media scrutiny they have had to face. If they HAD murdered Madeleine or accidentally killed her and were trying to get away with it they would have given a press conference, muttered something about being too grief stricken to continue and then got the hell out of the limelight. The fact they chose to stay so doggedly in the public eye suggests to me they are probably innocent. If my child had been abducted I would do exactly the same because once the story disappears from the front pages you might as well kiss your child goodbye. Incidentally, I am not sure their being doctors has much relevance. After all Harold Shipman was a doctor.

Fri, 2007-09-07 17:46

#11

Ewan

The thing is, we - none of us - just don't know what happened, do we? Someone does, sure: but who that someone is, perhaps not even the police know. One thing that has been made clear to me when reading the Spanish press in Galicia, whilst on holiday for the last 3 weeks, is that someone close to the investigation has been leaking information willy nilly to the Portuguese and Spanish press. This has fuelled speculation at every turn. I make no judgement on what happened, because, I repeat, we don't know. I hope they are innocent, but their social class and profession are not grounds to declare them so. Ewan

Author Page at the 'Zon

Fri, 2007-09-07 19:40

#12

camilla

I agree with Mark about the pornography of public grief.Everyone concerned about and grieving for people we don't know.This is clearly absurd,voyeuristic and needs to be questioned. When does the media inform and when does it just pander to base emotions? From Big Brother to flowers from strangers it has all got sickly. Perhaps we try to create virtual worlds as the real one has become so lacking.So we care about strangers and don't know our neighbours well. I watched "In Which We Serve" today.One has to get past Celia and Noels diction but after that there were moments of deeply moving dignity.What used to be called our stiff upper lip.It was beautiful. Ewan the McCanns come from pretty ordinary backgrounds.They got through all that training.If they had done in Maddy they could have come up with an accident story.Shipman covered himself for years. Mark I'm not sure I can give chapter and verse about my unease about Europe.It just is a deep unease.I think we play by rules that others don't. PS I dont buy newspapers but the other half has a bit of a thing for them because of his work.Why do we have news at all? It is rarely useful just windy uppy.The NyTimes has"all the news fit to print" our papers print an awful lot of opinion pretending to be fact and an awful lot of stories designed to stir.

Fri, 2007-09-07 19:40

#13

camilla

I agree with Mark about the pornography of public grief.Everyone concerned about and grieving for people we don't know.This is clearly absurd,voyeuristic and needs to be questioned. When does the media inform and when does it just pander to base emotions? From Big Brother to flowers from strangers it has all got sickly. Perhaps we try to create virtual worlds as the real one has become so lacking.So we care about strangers and don't know our neighbours well. I watched "In Which We Serve" today.One has to get past Celia and Noels diction but after that there were moments of deeply moving dignity.What used to be called our stiff upper lip.It was beautiful. Ewan the McCanns come from pretty ordinary backgrounds.They got through all that training.If they had done in Maddy they could have come up with an accident story.Shipman covered himself for years. Mark I'm not sure I can give chapter and verse about my unease about Europe.It just is a deep unease.I think we play by rules that others don't. PS I dont buy newspapers but the other half has a bit of a thing for them because of his work.Why do we have news at all? It is rarely useful just windy uppy.The NyTimes has"all the news fit to print" our papers print an awful lot of opinion pretending to be fact and an awful lot of stories designed to stir.

Fri, 2007-09-07 20:43

#14

styx

I didn't want to start a thread on this some time ago but wanted to say, as a parent I would never have left my young son to go out for a meal, even just a few yards down the road. And not because he might have been abducted, he might well have woken and been terrified. But knowing him he might have thought it a good idea to play with matches or somesuch. YOU NEVER NEVER LEAVE YOUNG CHILDREN ALONE! I must disagree strongly with you Camilla about us Brits playing by different rules than others. The Guildford Four, The Birmingham Eight or was it 6 or 10? Yes I suppose we do play by different rules.

Fri, 2007-09-07 21:07

#15

camilla

Yea well the Polish man who raped and nearly killed the Cornish woman in Newquay had the following put up as a defence.That he came from a small village and had had a lot to drink.He then had been given some drugs which of course he took.The judge was exasperated that the man would only serve 4 years (for ruining someones life) and that he could not be deported subsequently.Whatever miscarriages there have been there are far far more injustices for victims.This is our legal system and it sucks.That we can't even deport someone back to an EU country is ludicrous.And I would never have left a four year old alone either because they might get up and try to give themselves Calpol.

Fri, 2007-09-07 21:29

#16

styx

I don't believe that anyone as cute as Mrs McCann could harm her own daughter. I expect Gwynneth Paltry to play her in the upcoming film.

Fri, 2007-09-07 22:21

#17

pepsoid

I hate all this Trial By Media stuff that seems to have become so popular of late. There's so much randomness, conjecture, so much potential for us getting it all completely wrong. What are our opinions really based on? Who's telling us the truth, who has hidden agendas, etc, etc, etc? Again... re Jude... no opinion re guilt or innocence... pe ps oid Blogs! "the art of tea" "that's an odd courgette"

The All New Pepsoid the Second!