Andrew Pack - Praise for Raymond Carver.

Thanks for the Coover tip, he's one I haven't read. Find myself agreeing with you about the culture of postmodernism, though I suppose it is its own worst enemy; you know, they always shoot the messenger, don't they? It's like, on the one hand it has opened everything up by dismissing the very idea of an objective authority, or an objective criteria for judgement, and we love it for that ... but the very fact of its doing this has left us feeling "thrown" and without a reference point, cast adrift in a chaotic world of anything goes!! And we hate it for that! Back to Barthelme. I recall some of the stories you mentioned above ... "get along there, li'l porcupines" ... HA!! BTW, do you know anything about Frederick Barthelme? Is it DB's son, or something? Is he any good? A while back you asked for top 5 Carver, thus; - Cathedral. - Fat. - What we talk about ... love. - Neighbours. - Put yourself in my shoes. - Vitamins. - Careful. - A small, good thing (not sure of original title) - Bicycles, Muscles, Cigarettes. - They're not your husband. As I said, 5. They chose themselves really!

Unfortunately haven't got long to write today, but just wanted to write a short bit about postmodernism to follow on from what you said. I'm totally torn about postmodernist writing really, on the one hand I think it helped in many ways to unblock a lot of stuffy rules and regulations on writing, but has also been open to a great deal of abuse, whereby "postmodernism" can be renamed as "getting away with anything." A lot of writers write something which isn't particularly noteworthy and then slap the postmodern tag on to justify their shoddy work - use of the tag "ironic" is also rife to disguise a laziness that often creeps into some texts. Saying that though, there are writers who use postmodernism to good effect - John Barth's Lost in the funhouse is a good example (although I only really like the title story), The Things they carried by Tim O'Brien is also great, massively makes you wonder what is real and what isn't - he toys with the real and made-up to great effect. If you haven't read it, quickest example is the start of the book where he dedicates it to all the soldiers he fought with in Vietnam (which feature in the stories) and then the next page has the usual disclaimer - all characters/situations are fictitious etc. Coover does this amazingly well in The Babysitter too - creates loads of different scenarios and narrative threads that all offer different explanations and stories within the one story as to what could be going on. It's a bit tricky to find - although it's in the Pricksongs and Descants collection. Sorry if this is a bit rambling, but I'm in a massive rush, have to go now, but look forward to continuing this discussion after the weekend. Have a good one.

I did enjoy reading Andrew's writings about Raymond Carver as I'm a massiv fan myself - it is well written and takes a broad-ranging approach regarding his work. The only criticism I have really is the conclusion that Andrew makes - I agree with Andrew that newcomers to Carver could be left floundering at the lack of a conventional twist and focus on character and situation rather than mainstream plot structure, but I think that was Carver's intention from the start - people do have to read his stories more closely than many others or risk missing the point. I think Carver wrote what he did and how he did so that people would stop and wonder 'what's this all about' and then maybe re-read or approach other stories in a different way second time around and grasp the meaning and denouements therein. Carver was a minimalist writer in terms of his actual prose, but does have hidden depths many others lack for all their flowery writing. The other thing I disagree with is the idea that maybe Carver's prose would have been better if his life had been more peaceful or normal. Happiness, peace and normality are all well and good in real life, but a bit dull in writing. All writers really deal with emotional distress to some degree and if everything went smoothly from start to finish in stories and novels (and poems) they'd be pretty dull and a lot shorter. After the denim is a perfect example of this by Carver, it strikes up emotions in the reader that could never be present if the young couple who seem to benefit from the old couple's distress lose in the end. The losers are the nice people, the people you want to win - and in that way it is all the more engrossing and heart-rending. In some ways it's like real life too I suppose, where nice, normal people often don't come out on top. Still, I've gone on for far too long - I just wanted to add my praise for this piece and put my ten p's worth in as well.

Certainly don't think that Carver's prose would have been better if he had lived an ordinary life, but I think the last collection, where his life was beginning to be happy is some of his best work and I think Carver would have had a great deal to tell us about happiness and love as well as the distaff side of life. My regret is that he didn't live long enough to tell us. Anyone who likes Raymond Carver ought to check out Frank Foley's work, pared down and beautiful.

It was undoubtably a great loss when Carver died - especially at a comparatively young age - people like Thomas Hardy wrote most of their best stuff later in life when you can be more reflective - and in Carver's case, not an alcoholic or massive smoker anymore. Still, it's a testament to Carver that he left such a mark in a relatively short time - and, especially considering he was hardly ever a writer first and foremost, having to spend most of his time doing menial jobs to pay for his family. Anyway, I'll go and have a look at Frank's stuff - and, if you can find it - Forty Stories by Donald Barthelme is an amazing book of stories, just as good as Carver, but a bit more absurd and light-hearted.

Julian - firstly, sorry the reply was a bit terse. I was frantically trying to say something before BT kicked me off at 8am. Thank you for the comments, much appreciated. Maybe I haven't worded the ending properly - my view is that Carver's stories are proper stories, in that they make you think and care, but we are brought up to believe that stories should have a twist in the tail. You only have to watch a mainstream movie to realise that plot-twists have sacrificed everything else that makes a film worth while, just as long as most of the audience are surprised. For example, Sixth Sense which fundamentally does not work as a film - the twist folds beneath the slightest scrutiny and without the twist the film is a non-entity. The lack of obvious twist and meaning has meant greater longevity of Carver's stories for me. I have read Fat about eighty times and am still no closer to knowing what the story is 'about' if it has a meaning deeper than the literal. Sometimes I feel it is about kindness, sometimes alienation, sometimes loneliness. Sometimes I feel catastrophically sad for the fat man, sometimes I fear he will end up like Mr Creosote. Thats what makes it such a good story for me, it is utterly simple very plausible and yet just works beneath the surface in ways the characters can't quite fathom. Sorry, I can go on a bit about Raymond Carver.

I know what you mean, I could talk about Carver all day, been thinking about doing something about him myself, although I fear I may have lost the essay writing touch after being out of academia for 3 years. Fat is a good story - sometimes, like you say, his stories aren't "about" anything, but snapshots of people's lives at particular times - you're let in and can wander around for a bit and often feel disappointed when the story ends. And, while with the sixth sense you go - ah, that's the end then, with Carver you're always wondering what the underlying meaning could be when often there isn't any definable point, more a series of observations on life etc. Anyway - favourite 5 Carver? (I know it's a bit constricting) I love Gazebo, After the Denim, the one where he's in rehab (I think it's Where I'm calling from), Cathedral and The third thing that killed my father off. You say you liked the one with the birthday cake - I thought it dragged a bit - there's a shorter version (with a few differences) in What we talk about when we talk about love - has a different title too, which annoyingly escapes me for the moment.

this is great. just having this "discussion", like this is great. oh, the wonders of the modern world. ok, where am i? yes. this "pause effect" that RC has, where you finish a story and try to do the human thing and categorise it, place it ... and you simply can't with any certainty, well, hemmingway knew this too. he said he stripped his stories until the original 'story', what it was actually about, was almost completely omitted from the final draft. he said that omitting in this way could strengthen the story and (get this) "make people feel something more than they understood" i love that last sentence. it's beautiful and true. perhaps hemmingway and carver came close to writing life. life's not this or that (although we try to make it so) it just is.. you can't pin it down and say, yep, that's it. it always plays away from rigid definition. and so do these stories.

julian, been meaning to write to you about Barthelme. (you mentioned him on the "three books" thread, and i sat here saying, oh, god, yes, Barthelme, how did i forget donald barthelme!) you know, the first of his i read was "forty stories" (borrowed so many times from chiswick library, they must have thought i was lending it to them!) and it blew me away. he did all the things i wanted to do, broke all the rules of "story" i wanted to break. i think "chablis" is the first story and it has voice, and i mean VOICE. i can't recall all the titles, but i damn well remember the feeling i had reading them... it was the first time i understood the freedom the writer has. yes, the schools teach you this, and this - do this, no, not that ... oh, god you can't do THAT! - but barthelme was the first writer i read that said, it's ok, you are free to write whatever you want, screw the rules, just write. this sounds phoney and false, but i can honestly say that reading the great DON, changed the way i thought about writing. (if that makes me not very widely read, well, it must be true) Julian, have you read any Richard Brautigan? i couldn't write the above without mentioning him. whatever literature is, and i'm not sure anyone knows now, in our postmodern world, well, the literati would say Brautigan wasn't it. so who needs them? these little ultra short stories are gems. track down "revenge of the lawn". take you a couple of hours at most, but you'll feel better for it. (oh, and that carver story about the baker/birthday cake, is called, A small, good thing. i think)

Frank, glad to find someone who's read Barthelme, because, like you, he absolutely blew apart any preconceptions I ever had about reading short stories or writing them. Just as Salinger did with the novel in Catcher in the Rye (he writes a mean short story too), Barthelme revitalised the short-fiction form and, by ignoring every rule possible, showed that reading and writing, especially in stories, could be note-worthy and discover new areas of thought in a way most people thought only longer fiction could. Chablis is a great story, you get to see the sort of absurdity that is to come, whilst still having two feet on the ground. Then you get to things like Porcupines at the University and Paul Klee, Bluebeard, Captain Blood and friend Colby and things start getting fantastically weird. There's a story called Visitors too, which I loved - a bit more on the normal side as well, which showed how diverse his writing is. You mention Hemmingway with reference to sparse writing, like Carver, and I think they certainly are similar - different, but similar (would take too long to go into, but I think you know what I mean). I think it's possible to emulate Carver and Hemmingway with a degree of success, but Barthelme gives you no chance, which I admire even more - he rejuvinated the whole genre as far as I can see in much the same way that Carver carved (no pun intended) himself into its history. I haven't heard of Richard Brautigan before, but I will definitely go and scour the shelves for him - oh, last thing too, someone had a thread about favourite short stories and I never wrote in to say "The babysitter" by Robert Coover. Have you read it - another postmodern classic (even though I stand on the thin line between liking and despising the whole postmodern thing). And, very last thing - I think the long version is called A small, good thing - is the shorter version (in What we talk about when we talk about love) called The Bath?