is that andrew cowan? as in writer of the book about the pig? ... if it's him you mean ... i met him a couple of times ... he used to live round here (corby possibly?) and he seemed a nice sort of a person to me ...
it was a few years ago ... perhaps even 10 ... and i met his partner (wife) lynne too ... i think they met on that MA ...
i haven't bought any of his books now i come to think of it ... i did buy one of lynne's though ...
That's the guy, Fish. He hasn't done anything to me personally.... which is partly why I am spending my impotent rage here. Because I have nothing to complain about in terms of his behaviour towards me.
I hope he never reads this but I completely agree.
Went with Joe to a supper MA thing, and he was dismissive, rude and imperial.
Joe thinks he is great, but I think he is a wry smarmy fool.
I also thoroughly dislike Andrea Holland.
I hope I never have to meet her again.
Yes Curious Connie, being a uear is a sort of disease. It means you can't leave Norwich for at least five years and are addicted to speed poem writing and interesting hats and tights.
Span
I know I said 'that's all I'm going to say on the matter' but I obviously meant 'tonight' which was 'last night'.
The issue at hand is Mr. Cowan is in charge of the Creative Writing Level 3 unit at UEA this year. He has never liked poetry, and doesn't really know what to do with poets, so he has set them a line limit of 80 for their project. That's an 80 line total for a precrbied 6-10 poems. That means your poems have to average about 12 lines.
Prose writers get 1500 words, while script-writers get 20 pages. Mr. Cowan has already said he is completely inflexible on the matter.
ah see, yours is a sensible aversion.
I just don't llike him.
yes, that is rather rubbish. Tell whoever it is to go appeal to Womack or someone.
UEA does not generally like poetry I found.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I suspect not.
Much more a prose sort of place.
Span
And yup Bobblehat, perhaps that is the case.
However, contrary to my mean comment on here I am a great believer in the old adage treat others how you want to be treated.
Span
I just meant that a forum like this isn't the best place for this conversation. Just imagine if when you made a difficult decision at work you were named on international website and slated personally.
I wouldn't like it.
(incidentally I liked his book Pig, but have never met him).
I enjoyed Pig very much, but Crustaceans, a novel about loss with a terrible title, is even better.
I'll get my coat.
Visit my blog: http://whatisthisstrangeplace.blogspot.com/
Exactly ... you should be really careful about what you say on this PUBLIC phorum. I quite freely discussed my drunken rampages, unwholesome fantasies, passion for legumes and Hare-Krishna-ism and wondered why I wasn't allowed to join the convent. Sisters DO have the Internet!!!
*Mr Cowan has won on this thread. I've heard of him for the first time and two people have outed themselves as fans of his work.*
and everytime he enters his name into google up pops this thread!
1. I'm quietly confident that a thread on ABC isn't going to enhance his reputation too much.
2. The aim of the thread wasn't to 'beat' him, or destroy whatever reputation he has, merely to express some frustration.
3. Maybe if people start buying his books, he'll earn enough money from them to quit being a creative writing tutor, and that would be a good thing.
3. 'Crustaceans' starts off promisingly, but goes nowhere. It's a very good example of the man's rigid philosophy towards writing: everything is about clean sentences and steady pacing. Anything vaguely exciting, odd, fantastical or funny, is cheap and nasty.
Crustaceans concerns the loss of a small child, so the laughs do, it's true, come thin and slow.
Have to agree that it's hard on the poets to be burdened with Andrew Cowan and vice versa. Back in my day, Malcolm and Angela wouldn't allow poetry on to the course because they didn't feel qualified to talk about it authoritatively. I suspect the rule changed with Andrew Motion's reign. It seems commonsense to me that if they include poetry they should have a poet to supervise.
Visit my blog: http://whatisthisstrangeplace.blogspot.com/
....um, the MA in Poetry is supervised by Denise Riley who is a poet. I do not think Andrew Cowan teaches poetry on the MA...
There is a confusion on this site in general, often propogated by the people involved themselves, between an MA in Creative Writing at UEA and a BA with Creative Writing units.
The BA is something utterly different from the MA. Not that I am being a snob about this, but I am sick of hearing about UEA this or UEA that as though it is some kind of shrine to creativity. I had a very good time there, my writing improved lots, but it is not the be all and end all.
Also, if I'm right about this, there are only about 3 people who actually have the MA out of the people often called/calling themselves 'uea-ers'. The others are on the BA, have done the BA, or are part of the - student run - creative writing society.
So there we go. I sound like a irritable cow on this thread, I realise, but I find it tiring.
I feel like a tool for my post now. It is not the Hayley way. I like to be diplomatic, me.
I get angry or riled so rarely that I don't know what to do with it when I do. Seriously. I get angry about twice a year.
Don't worry, I not particularly proud of my comments on this thread either.
Was in a foul black mood yesterday and it was cruel and thoughtless way of venting. Mean me. Yup.
'Possibly because they want to get a reputation for educating people whose books sell more than 200 copies.'
Uneccessary, but possible true.
Fergal, UEA is blatantly not some shrine to creativity. Far from it.
I did not realise that in order to truly to have belonged to a university that I attended for three years and in order to be able to call myself a uear, where I still work every single day, that I had to have completed the MA.
Will bear it in mind though.
Span
ha ha - I didn't mean that. In fact I wasn't thinking of you at all in my little tirade. NOt even in the slightest.
Of course, anyone who's been to uea is a uea-er...by the very nature of the beast. I was talking about the use of those three letters - I just find something iffy about anyone who thinks that swinging the letters 'uea' around gives them credibility, or a stamp of approval, or a sense of superiority.
One has to imagine what it might be like for other users of this site sometimes. If I hadn't gone to uea, if lots of my frieads hadn't, if I didn't live in the fine city of Norwich, I would think we were all a bunch of wankers.
I'm sorry, but, at times, I would.
Yeah, it's not daft Harry at all. It stands for the University of East Anglia.
My point, I suppose, was that when people are part of something they think it is much bigger than it is. Norwich is a small place and it is easy to be a bit of a celebrity round these here parts. I do worry about the UEA folks moving to London only to discover no gold pavements and no fafare declaring they have arrived.
It's the same everywhere, especially London where they think nothing exists outside of the place. Mind you, reading an average newspaper you can wonder if anything actually does!
Harry Kerdean
Come come, Hayley - that's incredibly patronising, don't you think?
I loved my time at UEA, met some fantastic people, and grew loads as a writer. And having done the MA has opened doors for me - it's played a big part in getting almost every creative job I've successfully applied for since. And, thanks to the course, getting an agent was an absolute doddle. And everyone in the UK publishing industry has heard of the course. I'm not sure exactly which 'wankers' you're referring to, but I feel very privileged to have been able to mix with such a cool and talented bunch of people during my four years in Norwich - I don't really care if other people see it as cliquey. Sorry if it seems like I'm sounding off, but, having met so many talented and driven people on the course, and having watched what they've done since graduation, I can't imagine which UEA folks you're worrying about. Certainly none that I've ever met.
I think it is the same anywhere.
There are all sorts of groupings on this site and in real life land places.
Out of all the people I know who went to said university none of them hold it up as a badge of anything, why the hell would they. It ent great.
I think it is always easy to jump on a bandwagon and not take persoanl responsibility for how silly what you're saying might be, as I illustrated earlier by even getting involved in this thread.
Norwich is a funny old place, will be glad to leave soon me thinks.
But it is friendly, I will give it that.
Span
First, if you read what I wrote I included myself in the 'wankers' I used the word 'we' - I also used the word 'seem'
I do not think anybody on here are wankers, least of anyone from UEA. Everyone I've met in real life is wonderful company, intelligent, funny, nice to be around. On here I've read some astonishingly good stuff by people who went to UEA. I never said otherwise.
All I said was that sometimes, on the forums, there can be an element of superiority that I find uncomfortable. You may not think it is there, but I bet you a million grains of rice that there are people out there reading this and thinking, 'Yeah, from time to time I've thought they are wankers'.
I am not saying UEA hasn't opened doors... I'm not saying anything about UEA in itself. I'm not saying there is a clique - a group of friends does not have to be a clique.
All I was saying - I think you'll see that if you read carefully what I've written - is that there 'seems' 'sometimes' amongst people at uea who also come on here (not just MA people but BA people) that there is sense of entitlement. It can grate.
I am purely talking about people from uea who come on this site and how they - SOMETIMES - come across as a bit of smug mafia.
I say SOMETIMES, and it has nothing to do with doing the MA or BA or anything else.
I am sorry if I sounded patronising, but I wasn't intending to be.
I guess I would say that having an MA in Creative Writing doesn't necessarily make one a great writer, nor does -not- having an MA make one a bad writer. Certainly having the credentials helps in the 'outside world', especially in the qualification-obsessed UK, and no doubt the course itself is enormously helpful in honing one's skills, but I'd probably leave it at that...
(that last post is addressed to rokkit, not span, who had not posted when I was writing my response)...
Funnily enough I agree with span - Norwich is friendly and not elitist. It's a top place to be. If you don't believe me read the pub thread.
Wow, Fergal.
I didn't get to do the MA because the first year I applied for it, they didn't offer me a place. This is partly to do with the fact that, despite being one of the first to get my application in, I was one of the last to get interviewed. It was also due to the fact that Patricia Duncker made it abundantly clear they wanted more mature students that year, and from my interview group they offered the places to two 'mature student' twins who already had about two MA's each under their belt (I learned this from talking to them before we were interviewed).
The second year I applied, I got offered a place without an interview (albeit on the poetry MA, which some might consider less worthwhile than the prose MA,) but didn't do it because I didn't get any funding and couldn't afford it.
I kinda disagree with the idea that, despite doing the 3 year BA and chairing writing feedback seminars and workshops every week for a year, this puts me in a different league to people who've done the MA. I'm also in the wonderful position of being slightly resented for being a 'UEA'er while having none of the doors opened to me that Tim merrily lists.
Cheers.
Jon, I wasn't getting at you. I think you are a talented writer.
I honestly went on the MA at UEA because the bank would give me a loan to do it. A year of writing full time - a luxury! Getting to meet writers like Michele Roberts and Patricia Duncker - a luxury! Being part of a writing community - a luxury!
I guess that's the good thing about UEA. The sense of community.
I wasn't trying to start a war. I refer the honorable gentlement to the word 'seems' again - I am not saying anything about anyone. I just said 'seems'.
I am very proud of the work I put in to the MA, but I put in loads before I went, and put in loads now. I love writing. I can't imagine not doing it. Whether I get paid to do it or not is irrelevent to me (would be nice). Getting published is important to me because a writer needs a reader - FACT.. I just have to write. I don't know how not to. Most people who writer, whether they go to UEA or not, feel that way. Love words. Love books.
And that's a good thing about this site too. Getting readers. No matter their background or whatever.
Please fellow UEA's, do not hate me. I think you're all great.
I know you weren't trying to start a war. It's just quite a sore point for me (as lots of things tend to be, these days,) and I struggle sometimes to convince myself I can achieve *anything*, in writing or any other avenue, without the MA. I know, logically, that's a no-brainer. But that's how I feel sometimes, and it seems to reinforce that when you and Tim slam a great big wedge down between the MA and everything else UEA.
But you are a brilliant writer - you don't need an MA to tell you that.
Someone said to me, when I thought I couldn't afford to go on the MA, that you don't need an MA to be a writer. Seriously. The only thing the MA gives you is time to write - that's why it suits older people, or people who've already got careers and don't have the time to write.
I was being very tongue in cheek when I impled the MA was the only thing worth while... that was me being silly.
Good writing is good writing. I don't think any of my favourite writers have an MA in creative writing, and in fact, I nearlly considered not doing it because of that. (Don't like Ian McEwan, don't like Kazuo Ishiguro, don't even like Dan Rhodes)...
I think my main point was that there is more to life than UEA. By a long way. But we all know that, don't we?
(And I'm not turning against anyone who does do a course - I don't like it when people criticise the value of creative writing courses... I don't see people saying people shouldn't study painting, or music).
Sorry folks but I just don't *get* it, Jack are you saying that it is impossible for any writer to acheive any kind of success or recognition without an MA from UEA? Has every author, be it poet or prose attained this then? Now I don't want to upset anyone here, but some of the best writers (IMHO) on here don't have the holy grail and I am sure that at least one of them is well on her way to success!
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