Erotica!

Personally, I think that most writers fail to write about sex very well and it slips into the bounds of comedy, which completely defeats the object. However, in the rare instances that they do 'get it right' it can be an utterly compelling and butterflies in the stomach experience to read. Sex is life after all, an affirmation that we are alive; only we ponderous human beings have to dissect it and sprinkle it with neurosis. Saying that, I am a tad hypocritical in that I am certainly no hippy chick and I do believe in boundaries, morality and all that jazz. I dislike the term erotica but very like cinema, if the relationship between two characters demands or needs a show of sexual congress, then it can strengthen the reader's bond with those characters. Richard is so very right though; this discussion can never truly be resolved. All I know is that I love Henry Miller and I love John Donne. That's not because they are sexual writers but because they bring a page alive and make me feel glad that I am too.

Excellent thread everyone. I sort of take Mark YBs point. Maybe we are just getting bogged down in semantics when we talk about porn/erotica and whether or not there's a difference. They are basically the same in as much as they're produced in order to stimulate, arouse, entertain, whatever. However as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I do not believe that erotic/pornographic literature can be exploitative, and can't therefore be put in the same category as top shelf porn. Mark YB seems to be arguing that as a society we have degraded ourselves by considering erotica acceptable. I take the opposite view. I think that the acceptance of erotica is just an extension (and celebration) of the realisation that humans are sexual creatures. I basically see erotic literature as a beacon in the darkness of Victorian 'morality'.

I love the honesty and integrity of DHLawrence who was supposed to have written `pornography` but he actually detested it. I don't obviously agree with his sex obsession, but he really challenges me, his intelligence and sensetivity. The thing that bothers me is that a lot of our judgements are not based on thought at all but more our neurosis. I think the art of self-reflection when it comes to topics like these is an imperative and I have also been grateful for the fact that people have been willing to dialogue seriously about what everyone had assumed was an acceptable medium of literature. I believe on this web-site I am probably in a minority in thinking erotica as well written porn, but I too believe it's something that we are probably not going to agree on due to it's repercussive nature.

Polish Mark, posted mine while you were posting yours, Victorian Morality! My goat is bleating at that one! Celebrating that humans are sexual creature, yeah I suppose so, but as long as you're celebrating with someone who has not been exploited by our so called sexual freedom. When millions of babies are being born into this world with aids because the male chooses not to wear a condom. Or when young girls are pressurised to lose their virginity because all their mates are, and feel degraded and used. When rape is on the increase because as a society we are being soaked in sexual imagery, and our weaker brothers cannot see why they can't get a piece of it. I despair of our sexual freedom yet it's so un PC to raise a voice against `freedom`. Where is the bottom line. I don't mean to take the discussion away but maybe polish mark is right, it is about our sexual freedom.

surprisingly I find myself agreeing with mark (for once) in that erotica is porn dressed up, but, then I would ask you to define porn. In the same way that one mans poetry is anothers pile of dog doo; one mans picture of a girl in a short skirt is another, more innocent perhaps, man's porn. It would be interesting, if anyone has the facts, to know what the rape (and general related sex crime) statistics are in countries where porn, sex shops and prostitution is legally and readily available compared to those where it is repressed. You cannot supress the instictive nature of humans, particularly males, through belief or religion. (see world history for details), but you can try to educate them. But that does not solve the problem for those who have no access to relief (as above by ivy and mlb et al) unless you train them into monks. Hardly likely. You have to remember that whilst most of us in society can control our feelings so that we do not commit crime there are others that can't. If porn or erotica helps to prevent them doing so then it must be a plus point. I haven't seen any sign of social breakdown in Sweden and Holland due to their liberal attitudes. Finally. You should not be so defensive Mark. You are brave to stick your head above the parapet and are as entitled to your belief and opinions us the rest of us. oh, and who picked Ali's 'what we learn from porn' item? I thought it was brilliant. But that's because I've watched movies such as these (was forced to) and saw the irony in her piece. If you haven't watched a porn movie, surely you won't get the gags!

I Picked that,because it was funny and well written. I cherried that while in the middle of the discussion! I'm telling you that so you know, despite my personal views my job as an on-line sub-editor is about the quality of the writing and it's integrity of intention. Did anyone sing along to Ali's `curry rhapsody`? About being defensive, reading my conributions you're absolutely right! I did not need to be. I suppose I expected more stick and was defending myself before it happened. I wrote my last bit at twelve last night , looking back I regret coming across as the web-site's moral centre, that's just arrogant and untrue. I had one point to make, which I made several times, that was sufficient, I apologise for my sermonising, I was on a bit of a roll. Finally, can I say how much I have enjoyed the debate!

this thread is now making me think ... several people have referred to "writing about sex" and i think of this as distinct from "erotica" or "porn" ... as a writer i find myself writing about sex A Lot ... but not for the purposes of sexually arousing the reader ... and i don't think that is the effect it has either ... certainly i have never had any feedback that suggests such ... so why write about it? i haven't thought about why before ... now i am doing i realise that i want to reflect sex which is a significant part of life in as honest a way as possible ... and also i recognise that sex is a massive "driver" ... and characters need motivation ... so maybe that is also it ... a lot of writing is "about" sex ... surely all the romance stuff has to be ... it just doesn't address the actual business of it ... the lights fade at the bedroom door etc. so perhaps there is a continuum ... from the sensual (where a poem about say eating an orange can actually be about oral sex for some people *not looking at anyone in particular*) right through to hardcore porn ... we are all in the same business ... sex can be a lot of things ... among them funny, kinky, sad, a power play ... perhaps in an ideal world sex might only take place within a loving union ... however i want to hear about the breadth of human experience and this goes for sex too ... i want to read things that reflect the reality ... somewhere frank foley quotes hemingway about "writing one true line" ... i want to write (and hear) as many true lines about sex as about anything else ...

This has certainly developed - unlike some threads - into an interesting, varied exchange of views. If I could stick my fourpennorth in.. I fully agree with Spag Man. Most, if not all, first encounters are fumbling, often embarrassing and sometimes disastrous affairs: neither erotic or pornographic. I - and probably many others out there - have written such scenes, though not for the short stories on the site. Why? Because it's so difficult writing about full-blooded sexual matters and keeping your face straight. Look at all the well-thought-of authors who've failed. We've all grown up exposed to the typical juvenile British Carry On/seaside postcard attitude to sex.. that it's basically a joke! My only contribution to the Erotica section should maybe have been lassified as Humour, because it was meant to amuse and I'm sorry to rehash "HTWE" but it's relevant - just try writing a paragraph using any of the words bra, pants or knickers without giggling. I'm sure I couldn't. Nor could I use any of the more familiar Anglo-Saxon terms without embarrassment. Maybe I shouldn't admit it, but I think that there are some contributions to the Erotica section which belong in top-shelf mags and it would be better all round if they were left there. There's a point which no-one else has made, so maybe I'm just odd: I invariably become very involved with my characters (because if I don't, how can I expect the reader to?) and I like to grant them some respect and privacy in sexual matters. I don't need to explain every movement, every gasp - that's really naff, and says more about the writer than the characters or plot. Okay, I know they're fictional! Still, I'd rather leave something to the reader's imagination. Does anyone else feel so proprietorial? So, what's pornography? Two or more anonymous lumps of flesh doing various things with or to each other. Doesn't turn me on. And erotica? Running your fingertips down the spine of someone you really care about - right down to the toes and back again. Lying naked in the dark (before, after or indeed instead of anything more exhausting) and whispering promises, making plans. Engaging in a REAL, loving relationship. That's erotic. Cheers, Roy

never had a knee-trembler up a back alleyway, then, Royston?

Hear, hear - go straight to the top of the class, Ms Fishbone *looks at class list...sees she's already there...*

To me sex is part of two characters . The characters who are "in love" are going to have sex are't they? But what I hate is how they never show the real attitude to sex when it is your first time with that person. Usually there is a lot of self doubt and nervousness to sex for the first time with a new girlfriend/boyfriend. In reality it takes a healthy sexlife to get to the oint where you know what each other likes. They never show the insecurities of first time sex. That always annoys me. Its like these people are go amazing and so good in the bedroom. In truth we all may be good but we never reach the sexual heights of those in flims and books. Now me thinks I should do some research on 'Erotica'

preferably in Cambodia where internet access is limited

exactly which oint do you use, Mr Si?

best definition ive seen yet, roy of the rovers ;O)

Roy Bateman has written an excellent piece on the `erotica/porn` question. "How To Write Erotica" on http//www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewstory.cgi?s=4363 Personally I don't see the difference, one man,s artistic errection is another man's porno erection. Apparently, it has freed woman up to be liberated about their sexuality, great! But it also can be beautifully exploitative and I feel has set back women's lib as it now gives a great reason why the media can portray naked female flesh everywhere as `artistic` and `liberating`. In the 70's woman would have torn that garbage off the walls as exploiting the female form for monetary gains while inciting abusive actions from frustrated males. Now I expect the onslaught!

First of all in response to Jake, the erotica secition is almost all 18 rated and therefore is not available to children. Everything that has gone onto that section has been checked by an editor as it all gets 'spiked' before entry to the site. Inevitably, one day, something will slip through but it is an area we keep a close eye on and I feel it's valid as a form of free expression. In reply to Mark I'm not even sure where to begin. What we set out to do and what we will continue to do is to allow as great a degree of free expression as we possibly can without causing undue offence or breaking the law. pip pip Tony, the chief exec.

Pornography, from the Greek word pornographos meaning to write about prostitutes, is another issue entirely from erotica, from erotikos the Greek word for love. And of course ABCTales, as a sensible organisation in a sensible country, should include erotica among its wares. Why ever not?

The very oint of our existence of course

I love reading erotica. * note to self. Don't say things out loud ever again*

There is a difference. Erotice imagery (or porn, whatever you want to call it) involves real people, any number of whom may be exploited, drugged, conned, whatever... With erotic literature the protagonists do not exist in any physical sense. Erotic literature therefore is not expolitative.

Oooh, I bet it's Vaseline...

I am not against ABCtales having erotica on their site. Otherwise I would be a hypocrite for still working for them if I disagreed that strongly! My unease comes from my Christian worldview, I've cherried stories with graphic sex scenes in because I felt the writing was good, that is obviously my criteria. For me writing sex scenes, apart from erotica, in a story is redundant and gratuitous. Surely there is more depth when trying to write about love showing the progress of the heart . There is of course context and It would be pure ignorance to suggest that there could never be a case for describing the act of sex. Mandylifeboats, whoI admire as a smashing writer, says that `eros` comes from love and `pornography` is taken from a word connected to prostitution. Surely that's just semantics, just because you label something one thing does not mean you get the desired response. What about the reader, and their responses, tastefully, lovingly, beautifullydescibed sex can just mean more creative and subtle masturbation, let's just be honest about it and call it what it is. This is the crux, what we think about the sexual act and how we should treat it's public face is the point here. If you believe that if you call a type of porn `erotica` and therefore it takes it away from the men in dirty raincoats, excellent you can enjoy your porn guilt free. But what about responsibility to those elements in society who crave those written and pictorial images to assuage whatever sexual needs being frustrated? Finally, I must add I am talking about writing and pictures that overtly label itself `erotica`, not Art as art. My arguement may seem repressed and bigotted but I believe the act of sex to be a sacred union, in the ideal. Just because we pevert it does not destory the bottom line sacredness. Gosh am I not brave to hide behind an alias?

i think you are brave mark! i've never tried to write anything of this kind, but i hope that you are not suggesting that sex is sacred in the sense that it should not be written about. my only problem with it is that [from what i have seen, ahem], the writing about it is usually appallingly bad. but surely a good writer should be free to write about sex if he or she wants to? the "tasteful, lovingly beautifully described sex act" gets a response from the reader in the same way that for example a beautifully poignant and sad poem gets a response. what's wrong with that? i'll get me raincoat

Thanks Robert. I think I left myself wide open by coming from my own different paradigm, spiritually. Forget that arguement as it's not played on the same playing field. Going back to the simple act of writing, fine write it, if that's what you want to do, even do it well, but what is the difference between poen and erotica? One is tastefully written porn, or what about calling porn, appallingly written erotica? It's the pretense of it all, if people feel that liberated about it call it what it is, if there is no shame in it! This has got my goat, is that obvious?

if "erotic" can be defined as "of, devoted to, or tending to arouse sexual love or desire" and erotica as "depictions of things erotic" and pornography as "the depiction of erotic behavior intended to cause sexual excitement" where does this leave us? what is the actual difference? ... is it in the intention? ... in which case some writing which pertains to be erotica is in fact pornography as it is written (and read) with the intention of causing sexual excitement ...

i don't think that there is any pretense in this, is there? i thought it was quite simple. the kind of thing that the newsagent has on the top shelf doesn't pretend to be anything other than porn, and the people who buy it don't pretend that they are doing so for the quality of writing. like most people, i find this type of stuff objectionable. but that doesn't mean that all writing that includes sex is the same does it? there's a piece on abc called amatorius, by shaz, which i read today. i considered it to be a good piece of writing, and it was about sex. is shaz a pornographer? should i feel ashamed for thinking for thinking that her writing was good? [incidentally, shaz has also posted a piece called Chilli and Ice, which i think is even better, and worth a read]

If, instead of `erotica`, on the site we put `well written porn` it would not work, would it? People would say "should't you just call it `erotica` it sounds much less offensive". You can always, I suppose, have your cake and eat it if you want to. But purely writing about sex descriptively, however tasteful, isn't it for the same purpose? Or perhaps more realistically, doesn't it produce the same outcome, which I will not condemn, okay! This is a good and interesting thread!

I, too, thought chilli and ice was better than amatorius. Sometimes the less obvious lets your own imagination out to play rather than relying on the writer to draw the picture for you. I'm glad you said 'goat' Mark. I'd have been jealous otherwise!

You mean I could have said sheep?

well, you guys can argue about the definition of porn for eternity. I would suggest that the times read for these stories tells us something about human nature. (I mentioned this before somewhere I believe). Check out the 'diary' genre and see if the stories there feature so highly. Does this mean that ABC are providing a valuable public service? By letting robert and his raincoat in are we keeping him from more hideous crimes out on the street? Does this widen the debate? now, where's my fleece?

*panicking* is there any way that anyone can tell the number of times i've read stormy's barbara?

23

is that the number of times i read all of it, or does it include all the times when due to pressing matters i was unable to get to the end?

What puts me off many religions is that they sneer at the man in the raincoat rather than trying to see what forces him to read cheap titillation in the first place. I was a volunteer for the Samaritans many years ago and listening to the loneliness and frustration experienced by people forced into non-voluntary chastity made me think differently about pornography. Looking at pictures of busty beauties is often the nearest the shy, the ugly and the crippled ever come to any kind of sexual experience - and even the most chaste among us will admit we have all been given sexual impulses for the continuation of the human race. I would like to congratulate ABCTales on its enlightened policy of including as wide a range of literary work as possible, for every possible taste. The over-18 stickers should surely be sufficient to warn Disgusted of Dorking that the story or poem in question is not for him?

As stated before this is the reason why we should keep off religion and stick to the debate in general. I've had more prejudice because of what people assume I believe because of making a stand on morality than most other topics. Take religion out of the equasion, there are as many different `religions` as there are people. We all have a religion, whether it is unrestrained hedonism, or Communism. I find it very interesting that the bricks mostly fly when you come out against something like `erotica`. As if immediately you are a bigot and trying to oppress someone or something, this just stops debate and is knee jerk defensive. The fact is our so called `liberalisation` has not made this a better place to live, it's cheapened and made society more dangerous for the vulnerable. These people that Mandy talked about who are needy and require our love and help, this is exactly my point. Does it help them tormenting them more with forbidden imagery that they can only fantasise about, or worse take out the frustrations on other vulnerable elements in society. The nakedness that assaults us from everywhere, whether it be posters at a bus stop, adverts on television is all due to the fact sex sells, but it's so irresponsible. Everything is sacrificed to the `God` of freedom! If you make a stand it's shouted down because you must be some kind of `right wing fascist` to have a differing opinion. Everything I've just spoke out against I used to believe. Now I REALISE MY MOTIVES WERE TO DO WITH MY OWN PERSONAL ANGST THAN REAL THOUGHT OUT OPINION. bECAUSE I FELT `OPPRESSED` I COULD SMELL IT AT 40 PACESsomewhere else. At the very real risk of repeating myself, there is no difference between porn and erotica. Erotica, is our liberated way of sanctioning something that people feel should be allowed to be written, i.e, down the line sexual desription. I have not read one arguement apart from semantics or distress at the opposing view that has changed my mind. Now I must go, my fingers are aching!

What an intriguing and well argued thread. But mark I do believe that 'liberalisation' has led to an improvement in society. Of course pictures of Anna Kournikova in her bra plastered across every intersection in Brighton are weird - but they are not necessarily offensive. I too have problems with top shelf magazines but I would never ban them. Oppression causes far too many other problems - look at the Americans and their stange and bizarre attitude to alcohol. Liberalisation takes time and many a step backwards and well as many forwards to have its effect, but surely anything that stops us being quite so alienated from our true natures and hence our society is a good thing. Lang may yer lum reek, I say! Translations by request - or ask ferguswergus! pip pip, tony

Many people only have access to 'forbidden imagery' to feed their fantasies, which was precisely my point!

i don't think you CAN take religion out of the argument mark as it is clearly informing your standpoint ... you say that you used to believe in other things and have evidently changed ... i am not "religious" myself but this does not discount the spiritual ... and i have some problems with the apparent "judgement" going on above ... i am uncomfortable with an idealogical position which knows better what is good for someone (described above as These people who are needy and require our love and help ) ... surely this is a patronising viewpoint? ... the whole things alarms me because where does it stop? ... are you also fundamentally opposed to writing which reflects, say, the homosexual experience? people are very different and have different needs and approaches to sex and sexuality ... i don't think we ought to be condemning someone for finding images or words sexually arousing ... or believing them to be sad individuals ... (i need only to refer you back to the sexy bits thread) ... yes sex sells ... and what it ultimately sells is survival of the species ...

If I've come across as judgemental it's probably because I am. We all are , it's about what side we are judging from that causes one to be labelled, intolerant, etc. I hate religious bigotry. It's narrow, frightening and ugly. My faith is based on a person, Jesus, who only stood for love. Who did he love, sinners. The word `sin` is an anathema to people nowdays, my heart is capable of being full of it. I am so fed up with people confusing God with religious people, God is love, not confined within narrow denominations. I just happened to believe that you can only find him through Jesus. Alison said we can't get away from the religious aspect, but this is what makes people nervous, mentioning my faith is usually the catalyst for heart attacks from the office and presumption from those who stereo type `religious` people as deserving less consideration because they naturally must be thick, bigotted etc. I think the writing of `erotica` is just another sympton of a sick society, I really do, not the people who write it, not the people that read it, but all of us that have allowed our hearts and minds to be so hardened to what is and what is not acceptable. There are no bottom lines, no plumblines, as though we are capable of judging ourselves. I don't believe we are , our society proves it. You may think what the hell as this got to do with `erotica`, as I said, it's just another sympton of a sick society.

Is like the difference between an ad for tins of special offer baked beans and a picture of yummy looking food in a recipe book. Erotica is about feeding the senses. The worst thing about ads with well endowed people in them is how inadequate they make me feel. In an interview Melinder Messenger gave once I read she said something like she didn't see why other women's inferiority complexes should prevent her from earning a living. That is quite right, I think. It is when people have to sell THEMSELVES is horrible and wrong.

coming across this quite by accident, i must say that this is the most interesting thread ive read yet. dunno whether stuff like this is actually resolvable. this is because the premises and so on that people try to set up are pretty much only semantical, based on thresholds that we apply. i would say that imagery and text are equal as excitatory stimuli (ooh i sound like a proper psychologist mum!), but lit gets away with being labelled as art nowadays because of the oral and visual nature of our society. people dont read now as much as they watch, so the minority media get saddled with being for the few, which is of course a realistic definition of art, or that is the impression i get from reading fr leavis and clap like that. THE GIST mind u, i am just speaking a lot of bollards here. pretty much illustrates why we cant decide whether erotica in writing is actually literary or just a minority pornography. (crosses fingers)