Discussion Groups Going Downhill

Old Timer, I like the way you think. As I've said before, I'd hate for us to lose anyone or for newcomers to feel like it is too cliquey (which I don't think it is, but everyone has their own opinion.) Keep posting, ignore people trying to mess it up and hopefully we should have a forum that everyone feels happy to contribute to. By the way, thanks to everyone for sticking around and commenting on this topic rather than just leaving the forums - it is appreciated :-) Cheers Emily

Another possibility occurs to me - if you go right back to Karl's opening, one reason for the forums declining a little suggests itself. One of the main benefits of the forum, for me, has been to find people that I felt were interesting and begin communicating with them outside the forum. If others have done the same, then an awful lot of what was once said in public is now said one-to-one. As I start to communicate one-to-one with more of the posters who interested me initially, it is inevitable that the forum becomes less interesting than having one-to-one conversations. And also, the sheer pleasure of being able to talk about writing to other people without having their eyes glaze over is something which will be stronger in newcomers than those who have been here a while. Maybe what I'm saying is, that now I'm The Eagles and its time to let the Sex Pistols have their head...

I agree with you Andrew, through this site I have corresponded privately with several talers and it has been very interesting and helpful for my writing. Not sure about the eagles though, or the sex pistols, radiohead well no you're talking, let radiohead have thier say

Let Radiohead have their say! What are you trying to do to us, MT drive us all to suicide. No alarms and no surprises, my backside. Who are they trying to kid? A? Get it, Kid A. That's almost a joke. Seriously, I love 'em - I have ever since my kids brainwashed me with the constant playing of The Bends CD. Am off now to get some oxygen for my iron lung. By the way, an we have some Nirvana, too - same reason, brainwashed with In Utero.

Let me have my say too! er, can't think of anything. No, wait... Is Big Brother on DVD yet?

No Karl - You are, unfortunately, completely right. Sad, isn't it?

Karl, I agree with you. Oftentimes I do not even reply to messages because I am not in the mood to be attacked for my particular standpoint, views, etc. It is sad.

Karl, for once I do agree with you....just because opinions differ is no reason for the kind of abuse that I have seen thrown at you......and at others.......i must admit, on occasions...i have been a little angry at some of the responses to my postings and maybe on the odd occasion I have responded in kind.....apologies if I have... your point is well made and hopefully people who read these postings will bear it in mind.....a little piss-taking is alright..between consenting adults...but personal abuse is not big and definitely not clever...

Seconded, Thirded and fourthed. The wit and intellectual joy of these thread has been eroded by the depressing influx of 'schoolchildren at the back of the bus'. There is often some juicy conversation revving up here and all the often anonymous kids want to do is throw crisp packets, toss inarticulate, ungrammatical insults and as great aunt Ethel might have said, 'lower the tone'. Are we writers here? Articulate, intellectually curious and ever seeking to improve our literary skills? For me, the atmosphere of debate, discussion and support is extremely precious. Otherwise, I'm nothing more than a lone typist out in the wilderness, crying out for that need to 'connect'. SIGH.

Great metaphors Wolfie. No wonder I enjoy your writing so much. It's nice to know that others feel the same way I do.

All you need to do is respect the other person's opinion even when - no, especially when - you don't agree with it. Just like Ralph and I did in the thread about Parsons v. Hornby. And seek the common ground. And keep smiling. And remember, we're all brothers and sisters. Oh, I almost forgot - love one another.

As I've said before, it's a case of 'play nice'. The whole treating people as you'd want to be treated thing. The forums are a great place to have debates but it's far better to debate using strong and convincing arguments than it is to just throw random rude words at people because you disagree with them. Certainly, the forums used to be very friendly and it would be a shame if they stopped been as friendly. After all, everyone here is after (broadly) the same thing - getting their writing out to a wider audience, improving their writing and/or reading great new writing. If everyone tries to play nice (and also not be too sensitive) hopefully we can all have fun! Cheers Em

Here's my take, for what its worth. There are still good discussions to be had, and some interesting new people have come on board recently (hello Steve and John L) but the atmosphere feels a bit different. To be fair, nothing has ever been said to me that offended me, but I have seen responses to other people that I thought overstepped the mark. What I like in a discussion is not to bludgeon someone into submission with my views, but hopefully to come away with my views having been tempered and modified by aspects of the argument I may not have thought of. I think it is possible (and in my view desirable) to be able to disagree with someone's view without falling out with the person. It's a question of distinguishing the person from the views. Obviously there are limits - someone who advocates racism and wants to put it into practice is probably not someone I'm going to get on with, but the subjects on discussion here are really not so emotive that tempers need to get frayed. I'm still opposed to moderators (but, reading my last sentence again - I have noticed that the dailyabc does seem to revel in 'tempers frayed' 'things are getting heated' language) If I was new here, would I feel like my opinions are welcome on the forums ? Not at present.

Well i actually joined this place in the hope that i could hear peoples advice and stuff. Any type of thread can be used in loads of ways. The point is people say what they want and stuff i think it's a little weird that people would bother being personal when people are only intending to reach a point and see what others think. If i thought i would be the focus of a personal attack........actually it wouldn't bother me personally that much but some people will take offence and it's pretty juvenile...........errr.....okay i forgot what my point was........bye then

I can only endorse everything that has been said already. Like Andrew, I have never felt offended, personally. Maybe because (as far as I'm aware) I have never been a target. But I have seen some pretty nasty remarks made to, and about, others. Do people react in this unacceptable way due to feelings of inadequacy in self expression (something that should be alien to users of a site of this nature)? In my experience that's what lies behind most acts of mindless violence.

I don't post much anymore; however, I read the threads once in a blue moon. This is good one, Karl. I agree with all the above. I've never been offended by anyone myself, but I've certainly read nasty comments made to others. Deliberately. I've also read many supportive postings and some very funny. I've made many friends at ABCtales.

Well I have certainly never made any nasty comments about anyone, but I have noticed lots of lengthy arguments going on recently.

Andrew, I'll try to avoid the dailyabc revelling in 'tempers frayed' and 'things are getting heated' language - and I'm sure all the other editors will too. Certainly never an intentional thing (other than directing people towards the more active discussions). Although when I worked at a paper, I heard a great phrase 'The key to being a succesful editor is annoying your readers so much they write half the paper for you' I agree with you that it's possible to disagree with a view but not a person (I'm the same as you about racism - and I can't count any homophobes among my mates either. Know a few sexists though!) Stimulating discussion is a good thing but it's that aggression vs assertion thing that needs to be watched (by the individual rather than any moderater ideally). I don't agree with moderation except in extreme cases (mainly legal things) - the forums certainly managed themselves for a long time and a community should be exactly that (certainly when I post, it's generally as me and rarely as ABCtales moderater!) rather than a 'you can talk about this but not that.' We certainly want anyone new (and everyone who's been here from the beginning) to feel comfortable posting. Maybe we need an 'enter if you dare' forum so that everyone who's 'feisty' can let their views known in that thread and anyone who doesn't want to deal with it can avoid that forum?

....Sorry about the girl in the legal dept John......i know the feeling !! I agre with your comment that this "chat room" is way more intelligent than chat rooms, I'll venture into chat rooms on occasion (usually after a night out when my judgement is a little suspect" ) the level of debate is non-existent, in fact there is no debate, just a series of unfunny flirting-type activity.... There a lot of regulars in this forum who are great to swap ideas and views with, the abusive ones, do not tend to reveal themselves but hide behind alias'....and before anyone corrects me, a ,ot of people use nom de plumes but they always use the same ones, so you sort of know who are they are..... I'm rambling...better get back to work.....might head for the legal dept...see what's happening there !!

Maybe a 'robust' thread is the solution. I don't want to fetter anyone on this thread - sometimes its the feisty people who make me think most. Nothing wrong with the dailyabc pointing people to where the interesting debates are going on - just that the language used might suggest that a debate can't be interesting till it gets heated.

I suspect we may be getting our wires crossed a little. I don't think anyone is 'arguing' against heated debate. As I understand it, Karl and others are, understandably, unhappy with nasty personal insults which crop up from time to time.

You're half right, Fecky. I don't actually mind the insults. I worked as a nightclub bouncer for several years, so insults and threats kind of came with the territory. What I do object to, though, is the silly bickering by - as Wolfie so aptly puts it - the children at the back of the bus. I would hate to see this message board degenerate into anything less than the supportive community we've all taken a part in building. A couple of months ago I was fortunate enough to be chosen as "Writer of the Week" and shared this information on the message board section of my old school website. Unfortunately it met with a totally different reception from that which I'd been used to receiving on ABCtales. I was greeted with the, "Self praise is no praise at all," kind of thing. I replied, apologising if my motives for sharing in my achievements had been misunderstood, but filing a secret note away in my mind to keep future small victories away from the notice of old school mates. I lived several years in America where people are encouraged to share in the successes of others. ABCtales used to be like this. It still is. Yet I detect a disruptive element creeping into our discussions. People can write whatever they like about me. I find it quite amusing. In fact, I thoroughly enjoy it. But it would be a tragedy if other members of our community declined to share their views for fear of them being ridiculed. Does any of that make sense?

Sadly it does make sense. To quote Gore Vidal 'Every time a friend succeeds, a little part of me dies'...there is a certain depressing element in some people that wishes to deny other people their successor even a writer's strong voice. They choose instead to ridicule to mask their own insecurity. Maybe in a funny sort of way, it will make us all stronger. After all, when we are all published megastars, we will be completely unfazed by the snide, vicious and personal diatribes from the media. ABC:- Training ground for a writer's life! (hey give me a break, whatsawrongwivanoptimist?)

As someone who came new to the whole internet/chat/posting thing only a couple of months ago, I'd like to endorse what was said about ABC being so different from the 'chat'sites - I was really disappointed to find that the chat sites I visited were utterly unintelligible! I put it down to (too much) age and (too little) experience and am relieved to find that I'm not the only one who finds these sites less than rewarding. Obviously I don't know what ABC was like when it started. I've really enjoyed reading some of the debates on these threads, but have been disappointed when they sometimes seemed to deteriorate into the 'back of the bus' stuff. On the other hand, some of the more light-hearted 'silliness' is also a joy to read. I just hope people don't stop posting and expressing their views - or telling us about their successes. Isn't support, encouragement and celebration of success, however we individually measure it, one of the most important reasons we're here?? (God that sounds Pollyanna-ish...)

florel, a good example of what the threads used to be like can be found if you keep clicking Older Topics until you get to the last page of the general discussion forum. i've just read the thread called to rhyme or not to rhyme, to remind myself. it also shows that as far as one or two people are concerned, half-witted rudeness is not a new phenomenon...

I fear all the good 'uns got off at Adelstrop. As did I. Goodbye.

Not having an unlimited internet deal (or access to a PC at work} I've only recently discovered this thread. Virtually everything has been said above, so can I just voice my general agreement? Another thread I was recently taking an interest in - probably the "Changed endings" one - was recently interrupted by a barely believable outburst: funny thing is, the "writer" doesn't specify his target, so nobody knows exactly who he/she was getting apoplectic at! I'll be sexist here, and assume that it's a "he." I do know that a well-known name on the site was not only the subject of abuse on the threads, but foul, threatening e-mails. This was some time ago, so it's nothing new. It is, however, very disappointing if we can't debate and exchange our opinions in a humorous and relatively adult way without losing our rags - the astonishingly wide variety of material on the site proves that no two of us think, or write, in exactly the same way. Nor should we! And, sadly, I do believe that this stupidity may be putting newcomers off - there aren't many unknown names here, are there?

No, it wasn't "Changed endings", it was "Why love poems don't work'. It was still pretty stupid.

No, it wasn't "Changed endings", it was "Why love poems don't work'. It was still pretty stupid.

Tony Cook. Come on, Tony, I know you're reading this thread with interest. What are your opinions?

have stopped travelling round the coast in my VW camper full of teenagers long enough to put on some lipfinity and walk into a cyber cafe ... and well well ... what HAS been happening ... i agree that the tone of the forums has changed but also that this is not the first instance of this type of change ... i agree it IS offputting ... but really there were offputting things before ... somehow people were not offput by them to the same degree ... like any community this forum will have a changing membership and old timers sighing and longing for the Good Old Days ... and fresh newcomers with ideas ... there is no solution .... ages back i remember someone saying ignore the idiots (or the kids at the back of the bus) and they will go away ... it is a basic behaviour management technique and good advice i reckon ... anyway am tootling along the south coast at present ... anyone around for a beer? ... i am sure robert and liana will pass a message onto me via mobile phone ... could do with relief from kids ...

the forums are changing, of course, as people come and go. this is not in itself a bad thing [although there WAS a time when they were an utter joy], but what is important is that those who do have something worthwhile to contribute continue to do so. if they don't, the forums will become just another horrific chatroom... *strokes beard wisely*