Save our Short Story

Damn.. I've been missing all the fun. This thread suddenly took off while I was away. Jesus.. you lot know an awful lot about short stories between you. S'pose that goes with the territory. To go back a bit.. think this is the Carver you were refering to Drew. Just a slice from the beginning of the poem.. You Don't Know What Love Is (An Evening With Charles Bukowski) You don't know what love is Bukowski said I'm 51 years old look at me I'm in love with this young broad I got it bad but she's hung up too so it's all right man that's the way it should be I get in their blood and they can't get me out They try everything to get away from me but they all come back in the end They all came back to me except the one I planted I cried over that one but I cried easy in those days Don't let me get onto the hard stuff man I get mean then I could sit here and drink beer with you hippies all night I could drink ten quarts of this beer and nothing it's like water But let me get onto the hard stuff and I'll start throwing people out windows I'll throw anybody out the window I've done it But you don't know what love is You don't know because you've never been in love it's that simple.. It's from Carver's 'All of Us: Collected Poems'. It's great. Makes me laugh. Makes me cry. Also a great collection for people who don't usually read much poetry. Like in his stories, he's using very simple, conversational techniques that you can't help but be affected by. He's an extremely good poet, I reckon. Carver can get get a bit too soppy at points but, in this collection, these moments are very few and far between. Sometimes I wonder if the measure of a great writer is when you can forgive them for when they don't achieve what they have achieved before. Because they can write so well that they have that added pressure of measuring up to their really top class stuff. Here's a quick snippet from one of my favourite poems of his. Locking Yourself Out, Then Trying to Get back In You simply go out and shut the door without thinking. And when you look back at what you've done it's too late. If this sounds like the story of a life, okay. It was raining. The neighbors who had a key were away. I tried and tried the lower windows. Stared inside at the sofa, plants, the table and chairs, the stereo set-up. My coffee cup and ashtray waited for me on the glass-topped table, and my heart went out to them. I said, Hello, friends, or something like that. After all, this wasn't so bad. Worse things had happened. This was even a little funny. I found the ladder. Took that and leaned it against the house. Then climbed in the rain to the deck, swung myself over the railing and tried the door. Which was locked, of course. But I looked in just the same at my desk, some papers, and my chair. This was the window on the other side of the desk where I'd raise my eyes and stare out when I sat at that desk. This is not like downstairs, I thought. This is something else... Would have to disagree with d. on A.L Kennedy but I think we've both read different books (would have to agree with you on some of those snippets though) I really can't fault her collection 'Now That You're Back' and have to disagree with Pais on Everything You Need.. think it's her best stuff (incidentally d. Everything You Need is fairly chocked full of short stories written by the character Nathan Staples.. these could easily be read as stand-alone A.L stories.. they're great) Haven't read Indelible Acts though. Anyway.. back to work

Thanks Andrew, yes that was the poem I was thinking of. Carver's poems are like his short stories. He said he wrote them when he didn't have time for the stories - too much drinking, too much work. Like Bukowski he goes back over the same ground with some of his poems becoming later his stories.

Yes.. I tend to remember Carver stories a lot by what happens in them (i.e- that one with the peacock, that one about the blind man etc) I remember this collection containing a poem about him selling his furniture in the front garden, which I feintly remember being the subject of a story. Because I've moved around quite a lot the last few years and, coupled with not being very well off I've stupidly lost or sold the Carver stories I did have. Large error, methinks. My favourite story of his is not very well known and, as I say, the title eludes me. I know it's in from Where I'm Calling From: The Selected Stories. The narrators wife has left him and he's living in a house on his own. I think the wife has taken up with a painter, if I recall. It's really about him coming to terms with the break-up and reflecting on the pattern of his life after she's left. BUT what struck me most about it was the way he describes a very simple action.. can't remember what exactly it is.. but it is described in such a way that you feel that it is the end of a particular cycle in life for this character. It is superbly written.. an idea that I think Paul Auster might like.. that what actually changes human beings are not their initial reactions to events.. and it's not even anything associated with their instincts.. but inexplicable gestures or tiny coincidences that almost exist in a purely spiritual plane.. and it is up to the individual to weed these tiny occurances out and make of them what they will. I know that sounded a bit long-winded.. but that's how I remember this story. Oh.. anyone wondering how Ray gets back in the house. I might as well type in the end of that poem. Last two stanzas. And it was something to look in like that, unseen, from the deck. To be there, inside, and not be there. I don't even think I can talk about it. I brought my face close to the glass and imagined myself inside, sitting at the desk. Looking up from my work now and again. Thinking about some other place and some other time. The people I had loved then. I stood there for a minute in the rain. Considering myself to be the luckiest of men. Even though a wave of grief passed through me. Even though I felt violently ashamed of the injury I'd done back then. I bashed that beautiful window. And stepped back in. I know I've hijacked this thread with poetry. But it's interesting to see how short stories and poems interconnect at times, maybe. What I find is that Carver is a lot more explicitin the poems but at the same time that is what strengthens his stories Weird eh? What makes his stories so powerful, to me, is what they intimate. So Carver is a lot more explicit on subjects like death and alcoholism in this collection. Some of the poems are sad ..but they never go over the top. I think when he might go overboard he is always saved by his meticulous concentration on the spoken word and descriptions. something I find lacking in Bukowski for instance. Anyway.. sorry to rant on but this collection has got me hooked.

I've been reading some of Bukowski's stuff on Plagiarist.com, and this was for the first time so my first impression was that they weren't poems but they were very short anecdotes, tales. I must admit i was hooked for an entire afternoon reading them. His actual short stories were very good as well imo.

I read All of Me before I read any of the short stories and - I'm with you, Andrew. I thought they were great, and I didn't mind the sentimental stuff either (you have to concede that a man told he had 6 months to live from combined lung cancer and brain tumour has to be excused the odd bit of sentimentality . . . it's probably a wonder there isn't more) . . . I've always always got time for Carver. And Bukowski too for that matter. Like you've all said (much better than I will), it's anecdotal, conversational "poetry", very easy on the eye and ear and - you don't have to work at understanding, understanding is offered you on a plate - here, they seem to be saying, enjoy (or in the case of Bukowski, here - take it or leave it . . .)

I like the name Julia Darling. My other half calls me that... I love the short story.....love it to pieces.

d bes, you don't have to be gay to enter 'the gay read' short story comp. you could do a gay faery story. you will always find there are many doors that are closed to you in life. the trick is to run harder to the ones that are open.

d bes, you don't have to be gay to enter 'the gay read' short story comp. you could do a gay faery story. you will always find there are many doors that are closed to you in life. the trick is to run harder to the ones that are open. [%sig%]

I sympathise with D.Bes; I've been through the local Manchester library which is fairly large and tried to find the non-specific-author short stories. The vast majority tend to be location-specific (Irish/Scottish/Manchester), genre-specific or minority-sourced (erotica, gay,lesbian,feminist,Black author,crime,SF) or collections by well-known authors as printed previously in women's magazines. The very best stories were in a couple of prize-winning compilations where the above features didn't matter and, like ABCTales stories, could cross genre, length or any other boundary. Publishers could, if they bothered, easily get at least twenty volumes of first-rate "general" stories from this site just by being lazy and sticking to the cherry-picked items. But they will say there's "no market". I used to envy published authors but now I think the whole publishing thing's a shitty business as some of "our" people can testify. Write for fun! [%sig%]

thanks for the recommendations - d bes. you could check out laura hirds website at www.laurahird.com and go to the litmag central section. there are links to loads of short story magaizine publishers here. Some good collections are by Dan Rhodes - Don't Tell Me The Truth About Love. + Frances Gapper - Absent Kisses. Of course Raymond Carver. Damon Runyon.

I forgot to mention Pastoralia by George Saunders. This is brilliant.

Yeah, Runyon is one of the top short story writers, all right: taught me the bet-structure story, one of the best of all forms. Carver - I find one good story ("A Small, Good Thing", "Vitamins") to four bad. Of the old writers I love Saki and Wodehouse, but I try not to read them these days in case their influence makes me old-fashioned. I did read the Frances Gapper book after you recommended it but wasn't overstruck, though all power to her for getting a book of short stories out and going her own way. I like some of Pastoralia, particularly "Sea Oak", but my favourite George Saunders was "I Can Speak!" in the anthology "The Burned Children of America", about a machine which can make a baby speak: "Plus we will throw in several other personalizing options. Say you call Derek 'Lovemeister'. (I am using this example from my own personal home, as my wife, Ann, and I call our son Billy 'Lovemeister,' because he is so sweet.) With the ICS2100, you might choose to have Derek say, upon crawling into a room, 'Here comes the Lovemeister!' or 'Stop talking dirty, the Lovemeister has arrived!' How we do this is, laser beams coming out of the earlobes, which sense the doorframe. So the 'I Can Speak' knows it has just entered a room, from its position on Derek's head! And also you will have over one hundred Discretionary Phrases to more highly personalize Derek. For instance, you might choose to have him say, on his birthday, 'Mommy and Daddy, remember that time you conceived me in Aruba?' Although probably you did not in fact conceive Derek in Aruba." I love it. Oh, it's great talking about these things. No one I know has read a single one of the books I've read this last year, in which I've become a short-story nerd. d.beswetherick. [%sig%]

agree there, i often see eyes glaze over when i start to talk. i'd shoot myself before i bought anything by zadie smith but now i might have to. do you think i could find the george saunders story anywhere else? he's hilarious. sea oak is the funniest thing ever written. in fact i've just stole a few lines from it for something im writing now. or i might buy and tear the zadie smith bit out. i worte a damyon runyon story on here - fat sam wild harry and peary sue. he was a big influence on me (ever since i saw bernard cribbens in guys and dolls when i was 15. i went out and bought all of runyon's stuff after.) im going to buy the dogwalker book. it looks interesting (from what i can tell by the comments on amazon) sorry you don't rate carver or gapper. i've read all of carver's stuff a number of times. hmm, don't want this to turn into just naming things but ... i also love james meek. i think his museum of doubt is available cheap on canongate.net or he has stories in the collections children of albion rovers and rovers return, both also cheap on canongate (or used to be) and one last thing, hotel honolulu by paul theroux. it's not a short story collection exactly but it is. about a guy who runs a hotel - 80 rooms, 80 stories. it's fab as well.

Interesting conversation this -- thanks. Now off to the library to get more recommended books I haven't got time to read! [%sig%]

I'm not sure the "Burning Children" anthology is worth getting just for the Saunders story and a couple of others: most of the stories struck me as weak - but then I'm hypercritical. Zadie Smith's introduction was an embarrassment, so I'm with you on her. No doubt Saunders' story will crop up in one of his own collections soon. By the way, have you read his children's book, "The Gappers of Frip"? I haven't, but I enjoy your "Mini People of Timbukty" and I suspect that you have the same sort of imagination as Saunders. * It's not that I don't rate Carver, just that I only like about one in four of his stories. I find him somewhat prosaic and dull in his lesser stories, but I admire his approach enormously because he is so honest and exact, and that really is rare. d.beswetherick.

Zadie Smith's story in the Granta anthology of promising trendy new writers (or whatever it was called) didn't grab me at all. Haven't read the novels (unless you count the first 3 pages of White Teeth). By far the best story in that anthology was Rachel Seiffert's, IMVHO. I like Carver a lot. You mentioned A Small, Good Thing which is a beautiful story. I feel like I can learn a lot from him. Some of HG Wells' short stories are fab. I hadn't really got into the genre much until I started reading ABC.

yes sheepshank i only managed about 2 pages of back teeth. but her and danielle steel are tremendously successful so we must be wrong. one of my favourite carver stories is 'fat'. ive got his collected poems as well and his collected previous unpublished works - these are poor actually. bukowski met carver on a number of occasions and it was either buk or carver who wrote some poems about it, i forget which. (which reminds me of that story in four weddings...) i love bukowski but have never rated his short stories. thanks for the comment about mini people d. bes. i'm on chapter 12 of that now and it seems to have turned into a novel. it started off as a short story but now i have mapped out all the mini adventures. but what do i say to the publisher if they accept 'rising camp' (commercial gay fiction) my next book is about mini people. stop talking about yourself drew, nobody cares. ok. no, i havent read his childrens book but i would like to. i've taken pastoralia back off my shelf to reread.

oh and one more thing... d bes - you mentioned michael faber - i liked his short story collection - some rain must fall (is that right i can't be bothered to go upstairs?) but i hated his novel 'under the skin'. there was a story in there about a man who works in a porn shop. i liked that one.

i am selfconscious, that's a fact. i just bought the dogwalker book from bol.com. it was £3.50. a bargain. there's a short story collection coming out with me in it in a couple of weeks. it's called death comes easy, and info is here, my story, the pitch, is on abc. i will check out wells, funnily enough i was looking at his collected novels the other day.

I really want to like short stories, but often find they are frustrating in one way or another... there was a guardian or observer mag about a month ago stuffed with absolutely barkingly unreadable s.hite by apparently wellknown authors... Sorry men, i am in fact female, and i enjoy women writers especially... alice hoffman writes brilliant short stories but one of my favourite books of short stories is The World's Smallest Unicorn by Shena Mackay (notonlyawoman, butscottishaswellohdear). There is a fab story in that book called The Wilderness Club. I think you would enjoy it, Drew, as it is completely off the wall but startingly well written rather like your mini people saga. Which is certainly not a short story at the moment but a thrilling epic serial.

Thanks pais, I'll check it out. Have you read Laura Hird, Nail and Other Stories? They are good. Or a collection entitled Groundswell ed by Helen Sandler. (Helen has done a few now and there's another one coming out very soon.)

I love Chrissie Glazebrook's website - There's a very funny fictional diary of a writer on there - Ester Corrigan. It made me cringe in more than a few places. There's also a link there to the2ndhand, a very mad american website which is great - very short insane stories. it's the kind of thing i want to be doing. (it's on my 2 do list.) dear d bes, as it happens i couldn't even struggle my way through your a l kennedy quote. honestly.

I felt the same about AL Kennedy when I read Original Bliss. I found some of the prose twisted and hard to read. And too introspective for my taste. I picked up Indelible Acts in the bookshop and read one story which I liked. Perhaps I was just in the right mood. Yesterday I was in a cafe and found a book of short stories by Carol Shields: Various Miracles. Read a couple and they were so beautifully written that I just got carried along by the words. Annie Proulx, that's my other recommendation, although not to everyone's taste I think. I love the earthy prose. None of the endless introspection that you find in so much British stuff. d bes, did you give The Island of Dr Moreau a try? I found that quite dark & scarey in a turn-of-the-century way. I looked up Pastoralia on bol. They don't have it. Nor do they have anything else I look for! [%sig%]

Chekhov is not bad you know and as for James Joyce......memorable phrases and a wonderfully lyrical style. I am cross with d bes (can I call you that?) for never entering competitions. Come on you talented defeatists...get your booty out there. In the words of the Dr Pepper ad: what's the worst that can happen?

Actually wolfgirl I was thinking about James Joyce in bed this morning. I did Dubliners for A-level and that was probably the first time I realised the craft that could go into writing. Dubliners is a wonderful collection. The Dead is often cited as one of the greatest short stories of all time. I tried to read some Chekov recently as Carver talked of him as being his biggest influence. I didn't rate him. However, that might have been because the stories I read were his early ones, the ones where he was churning them out for little magazines to make a living. Can you recommend any good collections of his to read? and I'm with d bes on the competition front. the majority of them are up their own backsides with their list of rules - and it's not allowed to appear anywhere else and we will keep it in a drawer for two years so some second rate writer can flick his/her eyes over it and then not give you any feedback. we will announce the result in 14 years at a small location in ireland and then publish it in a tiny collection no one will see. no way. i'd advise anyone entering a comp to ignore the rules - send your stories to as many as possible if that's what you want to do.

Lady With Lapdog and other stories (Penguin Classics) is a good place to start. He may not be obvious but there is a craft and a cleverness to him which sometimes takes several reading. Some profess him bleak and meaningless and some people find great meaning in his work. Also, Edgar A Poe's The Telltale Heart is one of my favs, although his style reads a little archaic to our hip sensibilities. Competitions ARE a good way to get exposure. (stamps foot/paw).

Don't read that many short stories but really enjoyed Courrtia Newland's Society Within. Also liked some by Ivan Turgenev. I'm with the skeptics on competitions. Apart from the ABCtales ones, because we need the cash.

This is a truly excellent thread. The enthusiasm for reading and talking about books and stories is tangibly threaded through the whole discussion –– really enjoyable, and loads of stimulating ideas and suggestions. There is SO MUCH I haven't read. I loved AL Kennedy's novel "So I Am Glad" when I discovered her books for the first time in Borders bookshop in Glasgow, but was mightily disappointed in "Everything You Need" which is much longer but probably a lot slacker in accordance with d. bes's crit above. I just read it without really analysing why it disappointed me. I also got hold of a book of short stories by her, "Now That You're Back", but haven't found it interesting enough to persevere with. Then there's Annie Proulx, who used to have an E. before the Annie. I have a book of short stories by her that I haven't been able to finish because they are so dense and strange, but after many years of dithering and failing to pick it up have just finished The Shipping News and found it incredibly rich and gorgeous and packed with ice and no-colour experiences. She is such a clever storyteller, and her first novel was published at the age of 56 so there is hope for me! So I haven't been rewarded in the same way by reading contemporary short stories as I have by reading contemporary novels. I vaguely remember reading some short stories by Tolstoy in my teens and enjoying them, but am way way past teens nowadays.

Welcome to the fray, Pais. Enthusiasm for reading is exciting and a successful short story is such a find...

Nobody has mentioned William Trevor . . . Greatest living short story writer, surely?!?

I liked 'the storyteller' by Saki too and 'the Boarpig' i think it was called.I'll need to go and the anthology now.

never heard of him peter. but i'll check him out. also saki. what about having a short story section on bookmunch? i'm sure you could get some free books from the people doing the campaign and also some interviews, competitions etc - as if you probably haven't got enough to do. (isn't jim crace odd btw - your interview totally put me off ever buying a book by him - his answers not your questions I mean). i'm not keen on james kelman's novels - i gave up half way through 'How Late it Was, How Late' but I love his short story collection, 'Not Not While The Giro'. These stories are like Magnus Mills' fiction coupled with a deeper sense of psychology. They mostly deal with working class Scottish men in different situations. I guess d bes would like them - they are spare, direct. and one more: I enjoyed 'Bend Sinister; the Gay Times Book of Short Stories 3'. The Gay Times books 1 & 2 I didn't like and also there are many collections of gay short stories of which I've got many which have never appealed. There are only so many stories you can enjoy about 'being gay'. (Just as I've overdoesed on stories about 'being black' - check out the New Black voices series although I don't know if you can get them in this country - my degree was in American studies and as the tutors were radicals in the 60s this was a huge part of what I was doing. ) What was I talking about? Oh, Bend Sinister - a collection of gay stories about the supernatural, wierd, spooky. More than anything these were fun, you know, proper pulpy stories with a story to tell. I lied, and one more thing. Joe R Lansdale is a very pulpy writer I like. You can read a free short story of his every week on his website. He's written about a million short stories and as many novels. I'm waiting for Drive-in to be delivered - a shock horror novel set in a drive-in. and finally Peter, checked out William Trevor but could only seem to find novels - what book am I looking for?

oh Peter, if you want a review copy of 'Death Comes Easy; Gay Times Book of Short Stories 4' then I can probably get you one. Just drop me a line.

Wow, Drew, you are a mine of extremely useful information. Peter, I find Trevor dull and slow, I'm afraid. (I never seem to share your taste, though I very much admire what you're doing on Bookmunch.) I agree, Flash, that the Boar-Pig is one of Saki's best. Not all Saki stories have lasted, but the ones that have are in my opinion models of the form. My top eight Saki stories (I'm only writing these out because they are evocative to me and because I think you can often sense the quality of writers from their titles): The Storyteller. The Unrest-Cure. The Boar-Pig. The Open Window. The Romancers. The Schartz-Metterklume Method. The Lumber-Room. Gabriel-Ernest. If I ever did a Carver or a Saunders and was plucked from my obscurity to teach Creative Writing in an obscure American University (ha), I think I might start on the first day with the opening of Gabriel-Ernest: "There is a wild beast in your woods," said the artist Cunningham, as he was being driven to the station. It was the only remark he had made during the drive, but as Van Cheele had talked incessantly his companion's silence had not been noticeable. "A stray fox or two and some resident weasels. Nothing more formidable," said Van Cheele. The artist said nothing. "What did you mean about a wild beast?" said Van Cheele later, when they were on the platform. [In the next paragraph Van Cheele explores, and then...] What Van Cheele saw on this particular afternoon was, however, something far removed from his ordinary range of experience. On a shelf of smooth stone overhanging a deep pool in the hollow of an old coppice a boy of about sixteen lay asprawl, drying his wet limbs luxuriously in the sun. His wet hair, parted by a recent dive, lay close to his head, and his light-brown eyes, so light that there was an almost tigerish gleam in them, were turned towards Van Cheele with a certain lazy watchfulness. It was an unexpected apparition, and Van Cheele found himself engaged in the novel process of thinking before he spoke. [] "What are you doing there?" he demanded. "Obviously, sunning myself," replied the boy. d.beswetherick. [%sig%]

Just got my hands on the McSweeneys Mammoth Short Story collection (which Hamish Hamilton are publishing in the next fortnight) and that includes a spirited defence of the short story by Michael Chabon (in addition to a vast collection of new stories by people like . . . . takes deep breath . . . Dave Eggers, Rick Moody, Nick Hornby - in addition to people like Moorcock, Stephen King, Elmore Leonard etc etc etc Have a feeling this may be a lot more fun than Burned Children . . .

Sounds great. There were some excellent short stories in Leonard's "When the Women Come Out to Dance." I much prefer contemporary American short stories to British, for some reason. [%sig%]

I never read that Elmore collection (I wasn't sure if it was a collection of "western" stories - I'd read Cuba Libre some years before and - the western stuff doesn't float my boat as much as the . . . errr . . . cool stuff . . .) - is it worth a read then?

There were a couple of Western stories. One of them was good, about a woman who'd been captured by Indians (wrong word?) and had her face tattooed, and was sent into isolation by the whites when she returned to them. Most of the stories are contemporary, though. About half the stories are excellent. The title story is exquisite, for example. Elmore could teach a few writers about economy. Of course, this stuff isn't "literature" (there's usually a crime element, though not always) but the prose and dialogue style is remarkable at times - sinuous and restrained. d.beswetherick [%sig%]

I read my first Leonard book a few months ago - Tishomongo Blues - and thought the dialogue was brilliant but the story didn't grip me. The final set piece was all based around a Civil War re-enactment. Joe R Lansdale who I mentioned above is a bit like Leonard but dirtier. Try 'Freezer Burn' which has some good characters but a week (? it takes a week to get through it) ending. I checked out the Leonard short story collection but its not out yet (in fact it is due out today). I will get it. And thanks Peter the McSweeneys Treasury of Thrilling Tales also looks fab. I love the cover artwork. (My favourite book cover is Pulp by Bukowski - )