Yoko Ono

And of course Americans cant speak of compassion after what they did to the Native Americans... and the Brits.. jeez, how could THEY start?

MEETING THE BRITISH We met the British in the dead of winter. The sky was lavender and the snow lavender-blue. I could hear, far below, the sound of two streams coming together (both were frozen over) and, no less strange, myself calling out in French across that forest- clearing. Neither General Jeffrey Amherst nor Colonel Henry Bouquet could stomach our willow-tobacco. As for the unusual scent when the Colonel shook out his hand- kerchief: C'est la lavande, une fleur mauve comme le ciel. They gave us six fishhooks and two blankets embroidered with smallpox. Paul Muldoon

Not sure why Yoko has more or less right to talk about compassion that anyone else. I'd imagine the main reason why 10,000 Koreans died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be because the Americans dropped a nuclear bomb on them. But as Liana suggests, most countries that have been powerful have also, at times, done things which were very bad. I'd advise Yoko to stop her love and peace statements because they generally are twee and ridiculous but the idea that she's personally responsible for the actions of the Japanese government many years ago is nonsensical.

I didn't say she was personally responsible. She engaged the hippy movement in Japan and was an avant-garde artist before she met John Lennon. All I am saying is that she says nothing negative about Japan whereas she dishes out on Americans like an angry wife who has found out her husband is cheating on her. Americans give reparations to Native Americans for our genocide. Americans give affirmative action to blacks and hispanics (I'm still not sure what we did to the hispanics except for the Alamo. Americans even give to third-world countries for what England and Europe has done to them. The Brits? Back in the 18th century. I don't think that's such a lovely accusation.

"Americans even give to third-world countries for what England and Europe has done to them." What do Americans give to third world countries? The USA is, proportionally, one of the lowest aid givers in the developed world. It gives far less, in proporition to its wealth, than Britain, although Britain's not too good. On top of that a large percentage of US aid to third word countries is only given on the proviso that it is spent on weapons, sold by US countries. In addition to that, while I wouldn't defend Europe's imperial record, one important factor in the post-imperial disasters, in Africa particularly but not exclusively, is that the US and the USSR spent 30 years fighting the 'cold war' by proxy in the third world. In terms of affirmative action, I don't think it's meant to be a gift, I think it's a measure designed to create better social harmony. Whether it succeeds is another matter.

I think that's probably some of the most racist codswallop I've read for some time. Mob rule usually turns people into sadists, and we are all at the mercy of that. Doubtless the Japanese army were a bunch of bastards, and I'm not gonna even go down that Guardian reader's path by cooing "oooh, but we can all be like that. "

Which post are you referring to?

The very first. Ooops, just read your post now, so I can see why you'd be a bit miffed at mine.

No problem.

David, you have some very good points. The "COLD WAR" was fought on many fronts, but I believe that it was namely Cuba, Korea, and Afghanistan that felt the most terrible effects of the COLD WAR. The Soviet Union also gave arms and military support to African nations... Apartheid was a terrible thing, but it was a continuation of the European policy in nations like China and Thailand, just to mention two countries outside of Africa. THE COLD WAR was also a means of stabilzing Europe through an intensely realistic politic.

"The "COLD WAR" was fought on many fronts, but I believe that it was namely Cuba, Korea, and Afghanistan that felt the most terrible effects of the COLD WAR." Try telling that to the people of Angola. "The Soviet Union also gave arms and military support to African nations..." Yes, this was part of my point. That the US and the Soviets had a habit of playing out there 'cold war' by backing opposing sides in other people's civil wars.

Suppose we had done nothing? What would have happened then? Genocide? What happened in Cuba, Korea, and Afghanistan was psychologically the most terrifying... it almost eliminated the human element in the national personality...

Two Countries with enough nuclear power to blow up the world know when to say stop. This is historically proven and disproves the idea that "given enough time, anything can happen." There is a repetition of patterns that does occur just as the seasons occur and recur. Two races fighting with machetes or machine guns only stop when the noise stops. Africans are not just angry with Europe and America... there are many internal tensions too. People kill for power and for money. Fools kill for love.

Can only assume that you are being deeply provocative for some point of your own. Your assertions are sweeping and I have no idea on what you base them 'at least Germans never speak of compassion' - what, none of them? Ever? In any context? Even assuming that any German who was around at the time and condoned Hitler then loses any right to human emotion (which I would challenge), what about German jews, Germans who opposed Nazi's? I never thought I would ever read any statement that would make me jump to the defence of Yoko Ono, well done for that at least. Human beings make mistakes. Human beings in the service of oppressive regimes make terrible mistakes on a huge scale. Does that mean that they are forever excluded from regret, compassion, remorse? And as for turning in all the fascists who committed such acts - most of them are dead by now. Those that aren't have had to live with unspeakable memories for the last sixty years - I'm not sure any punishment we could dish out to them could compare to that. There's not a race on the planet who would not be doomed by your yardstick. Us Brits certainly don't come out of India too well. America created its wealth on slavery and didn't even consider that black people had equal rights until they were forced to in the Sixties. As Orson Welles famously said in the Third Man "The Romans had generations of war and destruction and created art, cities, technology. The Swiss have had peace for three thousand years and the sole product of that... the cuckoo clock" The world is an ugly place, but history is something to be learned from, not shackles to brand certain nationalities as forever evil. There's not too much shading, IMHO, from 'all Japanese people are cruel and don't deserve to be forgiven' to 'all Jews are grasping and greedy and the world would be better off without them'

"What happened in Cuba, Korea, and Afghanistan was psychologically the most terrifying" Out of these three examples, in two cases at least the governments preferred by the US were considerably worse than the ones preferred by the Soviet Union. The current Cuban regime, though a repressive dictatorship, is a still lot better than the US backed dictatorship it replaced. In Afghanistan, the Soviet backed communist regime, though unpleasant, was far less unpleasant that the Islamic fundamentalists who the US supported during the 1980s and who came to power in the 1990s. Neither the US nor the USSR ever prevented genocide in Africa during the cold war but they make a lot of wars, which may have happened anyway, a lot worse than they would otherwise have been. "Africans are not just angry with Europe and America... there are many internal tensions too." That's not the point. Many of the Africans involved in the proxy wars of the cold war may not even have known that Europe and America exist. That doesn't alter the fact that the US and USSR, amongst others, were providing them with a hell of a lot of weapons.

The USSR persecuted all voices that were not in line with Marxist thinking... the national identity was erased... what could be more psychologically terrifying than that? It's a Kafka-esque world! Let me ask you something? Do you agree that Einstein was a genius and a Communist? Now that's an oxymoronic thing to say, isn't it? Einstein said that a Communist state was very much an actualized religious fundamentalist state. That's why communist hate religious freedom. You think that the USSR was more humane than Americans? Ask the Czecks (pronounced like "checks"), ask the Chinese immigrants who lived in China when everyone was treated the same whether floor sweeper or brain surgeon. "PROXY WARS OF THE COLD WAR?" What does that mean exactly? Are you talking about wars caused by apartheid or be the COLD WAR between the US and the Soviet Union? Why do you omit the fact that France also got involved in the politic and supported the Soviet Union. Not until the late 1980's did Europe realize that Communism was a dead system. Africans did not know that EUROPE AND AMERICA existed? Afrikaans or others? AS an aside, why not blame the capitalists with the diamond trade for wars? Let me ask you something? IF you had to choose between a Russian and an American as a friend, who would you choose? Russian men are self-centered, egoistical, intellectual, hard-drinking nihilists in general. Russians give minimal support to foreign countries. This is the philosophy of the Communists: "You start your own revolutions!" As for blacks in Russia, I think that they literally kill blacks if they behave badly. They are also segregated in ghettos. Have you ever seen one black Russian official even? Russia is currently renowned for its mob, its KGB, and its dancers. Communism is the opiate of the mind.

David, let me ask you a simple question: What if Americans simply gave money to Africans, almost reparations for the evil that was done there? What would Africans do with the money, especially in the framework of the current political milieu. What happens to the money that we give as taxpayers to the salvation army? What happens to the millions given to Africans to stop the spread of AIDS? Yes, some of it goes to the causes, but the rest, can organizations track them path of money so closely? What happensto the billions given to S. Korea by the IMF, especially in the current milieu?

I'm glad you told us how "Czecks" is pronounced Steven... because I was lost there for a moment... I think your arguments are so fundamentally flawed and naive, I'm not even going to start in on a reply. Andrew, nice one.

Russian men are self-centered, egoistical, intellectual, hard-drinking nihilists ... hmmm ...

Hey Steven, news-flash "As for blacks in Russia, I think that they literally kill blacks if they behave badly" - do you know, I think they execute quite a lot of them in America too... Not at all clear what your point is, at various times in this debate you have branded all inhabitants of an oppressive regime as culpable and at others as victims.

Andrew, Liana: you are so right, so absolutely right. If you lived in China or Russia right now, you're so right you'd be put in jail.

Steve - you seem to have a lot of passion...and you're obviously well read. But you don't seem to have any clear questions to ask, nor do you seem open to discussion. You phrase everything rhetorically - to make an impact. You keep saying 'Let me ask your something' - when, of course, you're not interested in how people will answer the ensuing question, but in making your own view on the matter clear. As pointed out, you're also big on sweeping generalisations, presumably because they sound dramatic and decisive. "Russian men are self-centered, egoistical, intellectual, hard-drinking nihilists." If we're to do the same with American men, then you make of yourself, in this thread, a fine example: loud, melodramatic, intellectual, hot-headed sophists. The last post in particular - contributes nothing. You're just shouting people down. I'm sure that's not what you mean to do, but you really don't leave anyone any space to enter into a proper debate.

"You think that the USSR was more humane than Americans?" No. I didn't say that. The USA was/is a far nicer place to live than the USSR was, for most people at least. My point was that the regime US backed in Cuba was worse than the communist one that replaced it. I'm not a supporter of Communism but it's wrong to assume that just because Communist didn't work, which it didn't, every government that was backed as alternative to Communism was necessarily a good thing.

Steven - is it still the Eighties where you are living? I cannot for the life of me tell what the points you are trying to make are, other than America = good, all previous foes of America = bad. Seriously mate, I haven't heard the "if you said that in Russia, you'd be arrested" retort for over twenty years, and only then from the most ardent Reaganites. I think Hen is right - you've come onto this thread and made a lot of sweeping statements, many of which come pretty close to racism - I'm thinking of the Japanese ones in particular, and haven't been able to assemble any sort of argument whatsoever. Pick one of your points and examine what it is you are actually trying to say. There's potentially an interesting debate to be had about for example, whether America gets too hard a press for being the only world superpower - there is only a very short debate to be had about whether all Japanese people forsake the right to show compassion as a result of what their country did sixty years ago. We could also have an interesting debate about say, Russia's tendency to imprison dissidents as against the criminalisation and imprisonment of people for drug offences in the land of the free and the home of the brave... If you are detecting anti-American comments here, it is because people are setting out to show you that the wild and distorted generalisations you are making about other nations can be turned on America and Britain too.