Greeting Card Verse High Brow Versus popular versus mainstream versus accessibl

it's a great discussion. i for one happen to think that poetry has got itself well and truly stuck up its own arse and any form of expression which helps pop it back into the daylight is fine by me. having said that, greeting card poetry is often very bad - purple rony being a rare exception. but it does have a market.

sadly the people who decide what constitutes poetry are either ultra modern, or,ultra ancient. In school I was never taught anything middle of the road. It was always ancient verse from historical times to the nineteenth century. Then I had a new english literature teacher who only taught ultra modern "poetry" The bird, swiftly flying, hit the glass, and died. To me that is not poetry, but there again *what do I know*?. I don't have an english degree so I, like many others, do not count,.Only the academics appear to count. Personally I love greetings card verse and have an abundant collection of it for my own personal pleasure, and I'm always on the lookout for more. Thanks for reading my thoughts on this. Peter.

the whole point, i always thought, of poetry is ultimately to give the reader enjoyment. personally, i like to read and write poetry that makes me think about things, about anything really. however, plenty of people dont enjoy thinking about things too hard, which is fine, so receiving a card on their birthday with a nice rhyme inside it which makes them aware of how much the person who sent it cares for them, or one that makes them laugh cant be a bad thing; as i said, poetry is about enjoyment, so if greetings card poetry gives people that then it definitely could be on a par with, well, poetry that you dont find inside a birthday card. perhaps you can tell that my poems are usually continuous sentences...

IT IS VERY SERIOUS and ILLEGAL to BUG/track etc someones life for ideas for your HALLMARK cards- numerous times - even quotes of this authors to FAMILY members (on cards), NUMEROUS CARDS stolen of this author!s, even VALENTINE CARDS ALREADY written to give, the night before the important day they are STOLEN from SOUTHERN ENGLAND - author writes her OWN poetry on a card/writes HER OWNwords on BLANKL card - then THEY ARE STOLEN EVEN AT THE RECIPIENTS HOUSE - wrote a thank you to someone - even THAT phrase was COMMERCIALIZED - BOOTS, chemists COPIED family member!s TOTALLY OWN DESIGN (complsetse card) and AUDACIOUSLY manufactured a card PLUS PHOTO ALBUM plus his COLOURS etc. - he is TRAINED GRAPHIC DESIGNER- TYPICAL EXAMPLE too is this author encouraging her NOW STOLEN white pony, to juimp a fence in open air school, saying "come on, you can do it" - HALLMARK card published with shetland on front, placard rouond neck saying "YOU CAN DO IT" (event l997/98 - card 2OO 0- ALSO COPIED/TRACKED this author and family for ideas is GIBSON CARDS, an ARUNDEL card co., and several others - perhaps MARIA ALVAREZ "rOSIE" daily telegraph REPORTER put bugs in house in l998 June for ALL this commercialization?? or MR BARRETT, journalist, ID FRAUD investigator, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR "and other things" who is so much in league with people "high up" in the county council that a member of the COUNTY COUNCIL calls re; repairing his road WHEN IT IS PRIVATE and he AUTOMATICALLY SHOULD HIMSELF pay for repairs! IS He how you obtain your ideas FROM OUR HOUSE???

Stroof! [%sig%]

Very interesting one. I don't think mainstream poetry exists (except perhaps in greetings cards). I reckon what might've been mainstream poetry a hundred years or so ago, is now mixed with catchy tunes to make pop music. For me poetry is, by nature, a fringe artform practised by and for people on the fringes. That's just the first things that come into my head though.

I think purple Ronnie is a superb example of modern 'connection' poetry, some of the words especially regarding friendship are really touching without being flogged to death [%sig%]

Maggie's post really should have been on the Gen Diss forum. It's hilarious.

YOu're right about pop tunes - but would anyone with a long scarf and floppy hat ever consider the lyrics of Pink Floyd Poetry, or the lyrics of MS dynamite or Brnie Taupin?

YOu're right about pop tunes - but would anyone with a long scarf and floppy hat ever consider the lyrics of Pink Floyd Poetry, or the lyrics of MS dynamite or Brnie Taupin? [%sig%]

everybody likes poetry but i don't think people know how to buy it. i mean books in bookshops have many different categories but poetry is all lumped together - you might get burns next to bukowski. cards could be a good way of highlighting poetry - purple ronnie i agree is a good example. i can see where david is coming from but i don't think i agree. poetry i think could be more mainstream. poets on the underground did well, as did wh auden after four weddings. davids poetry i believe is a good example of poetry that could be accessible and popular (more so than it already is i mean) many cards these days are artist specific - is there a market for poet specific cards? i don't know but i like to believe there is. You say you'd like to become a pig farmer because more than anything you want to annoy Jewish people I wonder why you can't just tickle them that would be a nice card wouldn't it?

Poetry is hard to flog to people... a friend of mine writes Harry Potter fanfiction on a website, and she gets about 30 reviews per chapter. A poem of mine will get on average 4. Tis just the way it is. I agree with Drew, people don't know how to buy poetry. I stand in book shops and leave with nothing. I like Ged's idea... but some poetry just isn't really greating-card friendly... I randomly blather on. I'd like to see it happen, if it does. Mia

Dunno about Pink Floyd but this bit of Ms Dynamite is definitely poetry: "Now who gives a d@mn About the ice on your hands? If it's not too complex Tell me how many Africans died For the baguettes on your Rolex? So what you pushing a nice car Don't you know there's no such thing as superstar We leave this world alone So who gives a f@ck about the things you own?" Interesting what Drew's saying about people not knowing who to buy poetry. Might be good for bookshops to mix poetry books in with fiction and see what happens. I like the greetings card idea. Maybe we could do some ABCtales cards featuring short poems by ABC poets. It's another crazy idea for me to chuck at Mark. On one of the other points, I'm not necessarily arguing the poetry couldn't be mainstream, I'm arguing that most poets don't want to be, often for the same reasons that they write poetry in the first place.

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It's a fascinating debate. Personally I don't rate Purple Ronnie that highly. Pink Floyd etc, it's so hard to disasociate the words from the music. But I would say another brick in the wall has some lyrics that stand up well sans musique eg 'we don't need no education' Very little poetry has wide spread appeal for many reasons of course. Most of it isn't seen as fun, unlike drinking Bacardi Breezers or sticking your **** out of a window to give two examples It doesn't fit in well with the great god television It often contains words or phrases deemed difficult to understand It doesn't get much marketing because it isn't seen as marketable and so the cycle goes Poets aren't seen as sexy, hence not worthy of celebrification I could go on and often do :-)

I think a lot of poets are not seen as sexy because they don't label themselves as Poets - and the one's that are Jim Morisson for example was labelled American Poet posthumously. Gabrielle for instance penned a whole album out of personal experience and I believe the words are more moving without music, I personally am not keen on the music but there's some pretty strong words therein. Pop is poetry for the masses as are greetings cards. On the subject of Purple Ronnie (giles andreae) He has sold over a million of his little poertry books about love etc over the past three years - I'm sure any poet living or dead doesn't come near that and if they do the twenty five million plus poem cards he's sold in th last ten years plus the two million plus he'll sell through Hallmark this year must make him Britain's most popular "Poet", yet will he be invited to judge the Poetry society National Comp, will he ever get a mention in Poetry Review, the answer is plainly No,and why - let me play devil's advocate here for the sake of debate - it's because his words are crafted to appeal to all, to allow people to say I love you, I Miss You, You're my best friend, without over egging the pudding, without being ******* miserable about it, he makes THE CONNECTION without alienating the majority of the Western World, we don't have to work out what he's trying to say, and he say's is so succinctly. Thoughts anyone?

I've never heard of Purple Ronnie. I'm obviously out of touch with popular culture. I don't go in for strict definitions of poetry but the one most commonly by people on the poetry scene is that it uses imagery to convey an idea that is not expressed directly. So. for example, when Nelly Furtado says "I'm like a bird" she clearly is using imagery. The image of Nelly as a bird conveys something about her character and personality but she isn't, in a literal sense, building a nest in a tree or flying through the air. But it's sometime hard to say for sure. For example: "I'm feeling supersonic, give me gin and tonic You can have it all but how much do you want it" Is Noel using imagery when he says he's feeling supersonic? That's one for the cultural studies students.

I can't believe you are even discussing this subject ... it's utter bullshit. People buy cards because they feel obliged to in today's society. We buy for the occasion (and these grow every year - led by card manufacturers such as Hallmark) not for the content. (Hey! Have you seen the latest Purple Ronnie? really funny ... nearly as good as those cards that fart when you open them ... I've bought one for my Hallmark bookshelf) No, we buy because of the event not because we think the verse within is 'better' than 'mainstream poetry' Of course greetings cards sell more than poetry collections. You can't buy individual poems. Most of the nation could not give two cliche'd hoots for poetry (oh, that nice Mrs Jones has just died, I think I'll send her family The Nation's Favourite Comic Poems.) It's like saying the lyrics on any 'One Voice' single are more appreciated than poetry since they sold a zillion copies (or not) without considering the fact that teenagers would buy the single irrespective of it's words. It's tosh. We buy cards because we have to. We buy poetry because we want to.

Ah yes Tony, I have just re-read my post. It sounds more aggressive than intended. My first sentence should be ignored ... especially since I then went on to discuss the subject. Sometimes I get carried away. President Clinton Cards (can't be bothered to change names, it's too much hassle)

I may be mistaken here but I've always believed that women spend time choosing cards by reading the verse within, whereas men buy cards out of duty and most don't even open them, they buy by the picture on the front. I've never heard of Purple Ronnie either, has he played the Bloomsbury? I also believe that most people buy books with an authors name on the cover and are wary of anthologies. The market for poetry is very limited, which is a shame I think. It's odd that comic poetry is always more acceptable to the masses and as far as I know the only genre ever to be accorded regular air time on popular TV, i.e. Pam Ayres (and she sold shed loads of books too) whereas serious stuff is considered far too weighty for the eye-candy crowd. Tony, dear boy to say that verse in popular music isn't poetry is ridiculous. Professor Chris Briggs teaches the work of Bob Dylan in his university courses and hails him as the most important poet since Shakespeare.

So you're not a Dylan fan then Mr Sedaka? I don't wanna sound like I'm on a crusade but his work isn't 'simple' in any sense of the word. Interestingly, most of the books of his work that I've seen/own print his stuff sans musique as you so eloquently put it. It reads well as poetry though some is so obviously meant to sung. Lennons work isn't in the same league as Dylans apart from maybe two or three items. I have to agree that to say Dylan is the best thing since Bill is a bit ridiculous, especially when you think of all the great poets in between. Briggs is a Dylan fanatic though so I'm not surprised at his reverance.

Interesting stuff. I'd agree with mississipi on Dylan.. it seems to be poetry to me because of the complex way he uses metaphor and imagery. I would definitely rate him as one of the best poets around. It's also interesting to note that when Dylan has approached something so solidly literary (Tarantula, I'm esp. thinking of..) he doesn't pull it off quite as well. I think when an artist is at the peak of their creative abilities they are working beyond what might be pigeon-holed as what is deemed 'poetry' etc. However you've still got the problem of who you deem to be an 'artist' ..don't have an answer to that one. Although I love John Lennon's music I wouldn't say it was in the same league as Dylan. Jim Morrison, in my eyes, is generally slack at poetry.. mediocre.. but I think he did a lot for how we might question the presentation of music on stage (including the lyrical content) I was going to post something on Jim Morrison just to see what people thought of his poetic buffoonery.. never got round to it tho. I don't usually buy anyone greetings cards unless they're of the supremely bizarre/surreal/disgusting variety. I'd also say that the idea of selling single poems is a great idea. God knows how you market it ..but if the cost was low I think it would be easier for joe Public to come into contact with something like 'Prufrock' or even some more 'difficult' poems.. if they were cheap to buy and not too long. I think that would definitely raise the profile of poetry. I think we're lucky though.. because websites like abc, uka and all kinds off internet zines seem to be perfect for poetry ..in that you can surf, read ..and not be scrolling for hours trying to read novel extracts (which seem, to me, have a really rough ride on the net) Anyway.. going off at a tangent ..but it's an interesting subject.

Well Neil, it's down to personal taste and ours differ obviously. How you can think that Lennon/McFartney are superior wordsmiths to Dylan escapes me though. There is no way they could have written stuff like Desolation Row, Chimes Of Freedom, Brownsville Girl, Ballad In Plain D or any of the 800 plus songs Dylans written. On the other hand Dylan would not have bothered with I Wanna Hold Your Hand, Yellow Submarine, Please Please Me or She Loves You. All very catchy tunes I agree, but the literary content?

Hey you'll hurt my feelings with remarks like that, Tony. Of course I read your posts (and all the others too) and yes, I know you said they were better 'songwriters'. By the way, how many Grammys did they accumulate for their superior work? I would agree with you that they were more successful in chart terms as popsmiths but they were rarely serious songwriters. Virtually all of Dylans peers cite him as an influence but not many cite L&M (or as McC has taken to putting it lately in order to massage his already inordinately swollen ego, M&L).

My remark was tongue in cheek Neil, my feelings usually only get hurt for real by things that affect my life. What were we discussing?

Dylan and McCartney :-) Actually I guessed you weren't actually suicidal :-) just you bully me enough when we meet at events already, b4 I've fallen out with you :-)

thouroughly agree with the principle but does it makemoney//if it does let u know we are greeting card writers only in the early stages have u heard of johnny no lobes he a great guy but he has no lobes lobeless to say his ears are stuck to his head locked fast they are but never the less johnny marches on bringing heartfelt greetings to all and sundrey if he was marketed he could make agreat deal of money but all he is interested in is wigwams wigwams you may say to yourself but they a marketable commodity especially when interest rates are set to rise why u may ask yourself because the are portable and one can choose to go upmarket at anytime the skys the limet with the wigwam and for good measure we throw in your very own and one and only johnny lobeless. it all makes sense really if u want to know more then e mail me at the above addressor catch us at johnny lobeless .com at home hope to hear from u very soon tata for now xx

And I thought it was just frolicsome banter Neil :-(