Urs Meier

V.good post asdp.... You are not alone in feeling disgusted at the over- reaction of unfortunately far too many English supporters over this incident... and I think it is far less to do with football than an endemic disease... I would go so far as to say that the all or nothing attitudes of many England supporters and mirrored in the press (highlighted by Andrew above) - capable of moving from high praise to scathing criticism in an instant - is at least partially responsible for the football teams underperformance on many occasions... a feature of English football play is this look of being utterly petrified (of making mistakes) whilst being on the pitch... the playing so as not to make mistakes as opposed to seizing creative opportunities within a game... these players are on an emotional rollercoaster which means they can be pretty good one moment and going to pieces in the next... I would say due to the impossible pressures heaped upon them. If anything, England's football team need to play with less heart and more head... Far too much emotional investment in my opinion is made in sporting heroes here in a misplaced sense of patriotism... Its no wonder they stumble time and time again... The number of TV references to Henman carrying the flag for England (after last Thursday)... for fucks sake Tennis is an individual playing an individual sport, what the hell is the point of heaping his impending game with such national significance... You have to be superhuman not to freeze under these conditions...

in the hour of loss, it is unfair and stupid to search the mistake just in one person. it shows that the author´s having no manners and is no man of honour. greetings from germany

whey hey ... another triumph for the tabloid reading english footie fan ...

Dirk, the Germans are hardly noted for their honour.

George... I thought his criticism was aimed at one man, the author, and he never claimed to be speaking for all Germans... why the tabloid reaction of automatically slagging of all Germans!!! for his personal opinion?

take a look at the website asdp referred to.. i think it's just sad and pathetic the way those people are reacting.. but not as sad as the fact that they can't even find the right website.. despite the numerous posts stating that it's not the ref's website.. at the end of the day.. people are just making way too big a deal out of the whole thing..

Oi, swissarmyknife! Fuck off!

No England fan complained that Michael Owen has dived for penalties (or at the very least gone into the box hoping for a brush against a trailing leg), or that in our most recent moments of triumph that Spain in Euro 96 game had a perfectly good goal disallowed. Human error of refs is part of the game. Our level of football is such at the moment that it is very small moments that make a difference in a match between winning and losing. For me personally, going out of this tournament has been much easier to bear than in 2000, because we actually did manage to play some capable and at times compelling football. We got beaten by a side who have reached the final and whose team won the Champions League this year. Portugal made Holland look very ordinary last night - they didn't make England look ordinary; it was a tough game between us (which I have to say, I think Portugal deserved to win - I was proud of the way we responded in extra time, but over the 90 minutes, I think they were better than us - not murderered us, not outclassed us, but were just better than us. Like Arsenal were on the whole better than Chelsea last year) Try to remember how poor we were under Keegan - this is much better football. Let's keep hold of Eriksson and just try to be a little more bold / thoughtful when we go one up.

What had the average english fan said if... -> England-Portugal 1-0: "Wow, we were good!" -> England-Portugal 0-1: "The stupid Ref was clearly against us" That's common, everyone does so. Sociology calls it "Correspondence bias". Everyone tends to blame the surroundings for his own failure. The success however is never caused by the surroundings but by the own capacity... But... well... I understand that, backed by the media, the masses loose objectivity. I understand too that it is confortable to blame someone else, especially since in the own league the rules are handled less tightly and the goal could have been given. But I want everyone supporting england and flaming Urs Meier to understand the rest of the world, to try to objective. Best regards

we're all potential killers Karl its just that some of us manage to reach our potential. I agree whole heartedly with putting his name up here. He gladly took the responsibility of reffing that match in the understanding of what it meant to the thousands of fans watching, especially the Portugese fans! He bottled it. plain and simple. I have already stated that I agree totally that the nature of our game was poor but we scored more than they did. end of story. if they were the better team they'd have scored more than us. No goals are awarded for techincal ability or artistic impression just crossing the line within the laws of the game. Look at the headlines demanding Beckham's head on a plate and sacking Sven since his decision took us out of the comp. Had he done his job we'd be in a semi final and our players would now have the chance to try again and do better. I've never technically killed anyone and he doesn't deserve to die for his neglegence but he does deserve a world of grief and the full feelings of those he has cheated coming at him from all angles.

Gerry, I read his 'greetings from Germany' sign-off as implying he WAS speaking for Germany. Ok, I know he doesn't, but it reeked of nationalism to me and I responded, perhaps with the picture of desecrated war graves in my minds eye. The work of 'honourable' Germans. Yeah, I know it has nothing to do with footbawl, but I rise to the bait instinctively. The guy had no need to sign off as he did, but he knew he was being provocative.

As an aside to the slagging beckham has been receiving from some quarters, it appears he has been having bad marital problems yet again. I can categorically say that those problems would affect his, or anybody else's work. Been there, done that.

mississippi re: the swiss guy and the english thug who left the comments which wanted someone else to die: remind me a bit of your own but yours where done in a more intellectual way.... seems to be a common trait here somewhere........

of course you'll cover it up with some more smart wording but i think the proof speaks for itself.. My bad language i account for and know it is not right and part of the stress and illness i am going through where as you as it seems are just an out and out bully with no respect for human life.. an apology for belittling me while i was ill will be appropriate at some point i hope.

I agree with both Ely and Missi threads above. Ely I always find your threads interesting as they are mostly right and make in my opion of cause for what its worth so worth reading. Missi your thread were my thoughts entirely about Beckham and his problems and it is!! only those who have been their who could possiably understand and I can't help feeling a little sorry for him...

As long as you have an acceptable excuse for your ignorance it doesn't really count then does it? As you're 'ill' it's ok to be abusive but as I'm not I'm an arsehole. It hasn't taken long for you to start back in again has it? The only 'belittling' that occurred was in your own fragile mind. If you expect/want/believe an apology from me is required you'll have to wait until hell freezes over. I shan't be repeating this ok? I owe you NOTHING.

Before any more strangers turn up and have a go at the English please bear this in mind: The majority of people in this thread thought it a bad idea to email the referee (me included... as should be obvious by my posting the news report item) and I doubt the two people who supported the idea intended the kind of malicious threats Meier has had to endure. Although 16,000 emails is a huge amount it only represents a third of the fans that were actually out in Portugal and is a mere fraction of the millions that watched the game via TV. You have to realise that many people in this country are led on by the tabloid press without thinking of the consequences. We all make mistakes in life (and it hasn't been proved that Meier made a mistake) and I'd like to the people that sent an email themselves receive 16,000 next time they make a mistake at work. In the meantime would you strangers to this forum stop assuming we all think alike. The majority of English people deplore what has happened and I, for one, resent you popping into this thread with your sanctimonious outpourings. Go dish it out on some footie site.

I'm not sure if you were referring to me as being 'for' emailing the guy, Colin. I really didn't care one way or t'other as it happens. It was the BBC that originally broadcast his email address on the news, so perhaps they are the real culprits. For the record, I didn't send an email and apart from the fact that I think the whole idea rather childish, I couldn't be arsed. He apparently ASKS for feed-back himself on his site though. Perhaps, like another well-known site, the only feed-back acceptable is of the complimentary variety.

No, Karl and Ely were the 'two' and neither of them, from what I have seen, would condone the worse of the emails. I labelled you and others in the 'don't care' camp' which left the thread 6-2 against. If the abstainer's piled in it would be 50-2 no doubt. As I said, the press havea lot to answer for.

see?

Well i very disappointed to know that even the fan with the media has been done this, it's a stupid game where 22 gays run after one ball, i swiss i don't like the soccer but, The england go to kill wife and children in Irak and they won to kill the referee, what you eat to become so pitiful.

tripe. we eat tripe i meant, of course.

des tripes, vous en avez pas assez j'ai l'impression....

quoi que

veramente no, fate pietà con il vostro Sunnewspaper

Listen buddy, if you've nothing constructive to add, piss off. You are spoiling my bonne bloody humeur.

You would have a stronger case, had that unfortunate decision, been the deciding factor in the game (even then IMO still in poor taste to incite others to vent anger upon him... that is just mob behaviour)... There were still at least 30 minutes of play, plus the penalties to decide the rest of the game... the truth is whilst we came close, we did not do it. The Portuguese did. End of story. This kind of nonsense to fail to deal with a course of events reminds me of the dreadful stick that Beckham had to put with on the terraces following his fateful sending off during the last but one World Cup... shameful disgraceful mob behaviour by any reasonable standards.

c'est quoi ton problème, serais-tu le patron du Sun ou un des fous fan de foot, qui se permette d'émettre des menaces de mort pour un match de foot, en plus tu est vulgaire, ça démontre la bassesse du football Anglais...

Whats french for "yawns loudly"?

Rugby Union: I've just watched Rathbone score against England. The referee was in a position whereby he was unable to see whether it was a touch-down or not. He immediately went to the Video Official, and within less than ten seconds wasgiven his answer. Surely this highlights the benifits of Video Officials within football. The play of the game wasn't disturbed at all. In fact he had his answer before everyone had picked themselves up from the floor. With a Video Official England would have booked their place in the semi-finals of Euro 2004.

it's over the England has loose not a game but more a you think....

I have Karl Wiggins telephone number and address. I know a lot of people out there find him annoying. Please mail me and I will tell you how to contact him at home. I wouldn't be so crass as to think displaying these things publicly was a good idea.

Sorry, that doesn't actually make sense. Could you try a little harder dear?

Karl, this sort of thing is in poor taste indeed... now what human that you have come across that is infallible... especially when it comes to making split-instant decisions? Would you be reacting this way had the decision gone England's way instead? That is why a football game lasts 90 minutes or more... and on the balance of play you would be hard put to argue England were the better team and deserved victory..

Yes it had sense, did you think to sent death threats and forgotten like that...

as you see the think are not realy calm... http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?loe666&1(link is external)

... mm... nope, still not making sense. If i were going to join a swiss site and then proceed to insult the nation, I think i'd learn how to converse properly first. Then I'd get a good pair of running shoes. This is a writers site... sometimes we chat, sometimes we fight, sometimes we laugh (this is encouraged) and sometimes we insult directly (this is not encouraged.) Your horreurs at the English are pointless here... no one connected with the site runs off kicking people at football matches, even fewer read the Sun Newspaper, and even fewer than that bugger off to invade another nation on a murdering spree. Although, keep it up, and you'll be the first to know if we do. (I have a european road atlas and I'm not afraid to use it) Thank you and goodnight.

As I've said on the football thread, I don't think our desire as England fans to find scapegoats is at all healthy and goes some way to explaining why we keep going out of tournaments having led the game 1-0. We remain poor at retaining possession and slowing the game down, we play too much with our hearts and not enough with our heads. I'm as gutted as anyone that the goal was disallowed, but it is utterly wrong to claim we were 'robbed' - we tried to hang on for a 1-0 and failed to do so, Portugal came out and attacked and had nearly all of the ball and most of the territory. I wish to god we'd scraped through and won the tournament, but I'm sick of people acting like cry babies. We lost, narrowly, and perhaps luck wasn't with us. Why don't we try over the next two years having our England get togethers focussing on how the midfield can relieve pressure on the defence, how the strikers can drop off and make themselves available for passes that might reach them, rather than long aimless hopeful balls that come straight back at us, and try to reach the stage where we don't need to rely on luck to win these big games. England at the moment are like Henman - we're good, but not good enough to win against the big boys unless we play really really well. Henman has had the sense to go to a coach and work on the weak points on his game. It may not still be enough, but it is a better approach than complaining that he was cheated. The ref didn't cheat us, he made a decision based on personal opinion that didn't favour us. Goals like that are sometimes, though rarely disallowed in the premiership but are usually disallowed on the continent, and that's where we were playing. Instead of whining about the ref, why not celebrate the character that England showed in the second half of injury time by coming back to equalise when they were clearly exhausted and mentally drained? I'd like to see England live up to their reputation as being noble and gracious in defeat. And what the hell, the French went out the next day, without even putting up a fight! Let's rejoice in schadenfreude!

On the balance of play, Gerry, England put more goals in the back of the net than Portugal, which gives us a victory. Whether it's deserved or not is another matter, but that's football. In the past the situation has sometimes been reversed, with us being the better side but losing through one reason or another. As for displaying Urs Meier's details, which you feel is in poor taste, perhaps you should take issue with him. I'm telling no secrets. They're all freely available on his website. Perhaps you'd like to join his fan club.

As I've stated above, Andrew, I believe this highlights the need for a fourth official, a Video Official. It doesn't disrupt the game in the slightest and, before everyone's picked themselves up of the floor, the ref has the answer in a situation that, for one reason or another, he was blocked from seeing. To make a decision on something that he didn't quite see clearly without further consultation from others who were closer (or a Video Official if one were available) is disgraceful. The sole job of a linesman is to be another pair of eyes for the ref. Without the benefit of a Video Official, Meier should have used this instead of contracting what the linesman, who was closer and had a clearer view, saw. In basketball you have always have two refs. Sometimes they have a brief discussion, but mostly one's in a better position than the other to determine the play. As for Beckham, I feel for him.

england deserved to lose the match karl, they didn't play well, wheareas the portuguese fully deserved their win..and england have benefitted in the past from dodgy referees..and russian linesmen....and i don't think putting the refs details up is in good taste, apparently he's had all sorts of threats....england are out, deal with it...

Perhaps for handballs, did the ball cross the line, was the player in the penalty area when he was fouled - although I think human error is part of the game and I don't want football to turn into American football. Sadly, I think that video evidence would not have helped us - Campbell does get past his first man with physical force and John Terry does jump with the goalkeeper and make physical contact. So it is not a sharp, black or white thing - it is a matter of personal interpretation. I think 80% of premiership referees would have allowed it, but only 40% of continental referees would have done. So, it might be a bit unlucky, but it was not a decision which was plainly wrong - many other refs would have done the same in his situation. What I think might have helped is for him to stop the game (it is not right that a team celebrating a goal suddenly become aware that the ref has disallowed it and that the opposition are racing up the pitch) and to consult with the linesman who had no doubts at all. We were not robbed - we were a bit unlucky about that decision. Over the ninety minutes, we were not the better side. I think we shaded extra time. Is significant, I think that our best game came when we were one-nil down and didn't have to play a style of football that doesn't come naturally to us. It was far, far more unfortunate that Rooney got injured, as this meant we had no presence in the game as a counter-attacking force, which was clearly Sven's hope - Rooney can hold it up, drop off and bring the midfield into the game. We can't defend for sixty-five solid minutes with no respite, and I hope we've at least learned that. We either have to trust our instincts and keep attacking, which relieves the pressure, or become more professional and Italian at holding the ball. You can't sit back and defend a one-nil unless you are adept at keeping possession, which we are not. We have the players who could be trained to become adept at it, but their instincts are to clear, kick it long and surrender possession, and you just can't do that against a quality side.

Karl, I understand exactly where you are coming from, mate. I too feel totally gutted by what happened, but I don't think putting out this kind of bad karma on the web does England any favours. In my view a country that responds in this negative way does not deserve to win. We should try to rise above it. We have a great team and a great potential future, let's do everything we can to encourage our lads for the next tournament rather than abusing a duff ref from the last tournament.

Well it appears he's done himself no good anyway as it EUFA have decided he won't be refing the final, a job he wanted badly. As is always the case in these disputes, those that feel aggrieved will adamantly declare he was a shit and cheated us, those in the other camp will always say it's just sour grapes and the ref was right. In this mornings paper Meier's girlfriend (who also happens to be an international ref) lays the blame for England's defeat at Beckhams right foot.

"England at the moment are like Henman - we're good, but not good enough to win against the big boys unless we play really really well" these 'big boys' you mean the likes of Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Holland (scraped through on penalties against Sweden) Portugal perhaps (beaten by England) yeah, they're in a differenrt league obviously as their current tyhreat on the cup shows. Just as you're sick of us cry babies, I'm sick of England's biggest critics being English. The kind of people who, had that decision NOT been made and we had gone on to lift the cup, would still be saying, "well yeah we've won it but we're still not as good as the French, they deserved to win it even though they shit out to Greece, or Italy even though they were utter crap for all but 30 minutes of the tournament, because. let's face it, they're great and we're just us"

My little boy is just about the only kid in his class who wanted England to win the tournament. The majority of them wanted France to win because they're Arsenal supporters, and Arsenal has so many key French players in the squad. I thought I was doing right in encouraging him to support Watford because we live in such a Watford hotbed and I firmly believe in supporting the local community. Anybody can support Arsenal or Man U, that's a cop out, but a real supporter follows his local side through relegation threats and everything else. However, he's now starting to become isolated (not bullied) a little bit at school because of the team he supports, yet the majority of these kids have never even been to a match ..... which is surely the fault of their fathers. My kid has to learn to fight his own battles, but at seven years of age he's far too young to face unhappiness because of his loyaties to a football team. We've had a chat and I've suggested that although we're Watford through and through, it may be interesting to follow the trials and tribulations of a Premiership side this season as well. Not necessarily support them, although many people have a second team, but just to watch them play on telly and take an interest in their progress. Hopefully, he'll come to his own conclusions about that and be able to establish common points of rapport around football that will lead to increased friendships.

Well said L. Stormy, you are correct. I was one of the two and you also judged my feelings correctly. I have no qualm with any of your comments. TO ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS FORUM TO BE A CLOSED SHOP: I have had, what might be considered in your little world, a 'falling out' with Stormy here, and with Missi on the Elvis thread, amongst others. However these are actually merely differences of opinion that have been discussed by intelligent people and reasoned on the same basis. No problem. Next time you test your weight against the stirrup of your very highest mount I suggest you consider, for a moment, the fact that you may be simply debating a point and not waging all out war against the ABC sycophants and their minions. Don't react, respond. Don't get angry, get wiser. If you, or I, really knew it all we'd be elsewhere and the world would be a better place.

Well Karl, knives are freely available in any kitchen drawer - this is not quite the same as putting one in someone's hand and instructing them to stab someone else.

Yes, i tend to agree that Karl has not done anything underhand, i posted the tossers website on the other thread yesterday, and the site was shown on national TV as well.

Ely - christ no! You utterly miss the point (oops, sound like Hen - perhaps I should say that I failed to make the point clearly). I think there is another way to support England - a way that doesn't involve assuming that we ought to win everything and only get cheated out of it or betrayed by players letting their country down, and a way that doesn't just say 'well, our players aren't good enough to win anyway' We DO have a set of players who are good enough to win a tournament. But it is not going to fall into our laps. The Spanish have had players good enough to win tournaments for years and have never done it. The Dutch ought to have won two thirds of the tournaments they've qualified for and have never done it. The Germans (though they are undeniably poor at present) over the last twenty-five years - have they had better star players than us? Not really. A better set of fairly good players throughout a team? Not really. Better luck? Occasionally, yeah. But is their fantastic record over that time about luck, or is it about playing a system of football that our players, who in general are more powerful, more dangerous and more lively, could learn something from? I think England could get better and compete better and have a better chance of winning things by addressing some of our faults. We have strengths, we have faults. So does every other team - even France, who look amazing on paper don't seem as good on grass. I think employing a foreign coach was a good progressive move; standing by the coach rather than baying for his head is also a good progressive move. I don't believe that touchline rants are required. The things we don't do well, we can learn to do well - they are not impossible, they just need work. I love England to bits and have had a hell of a time supporting them. And yes, I still believe that this was a winnable tournament and we missed out on a good chance. And yes, I believe that if we play well, we can give anyone a game. Nobody has stuffed us, or really outplayed us in the last few years and our midfield HAS stopped running round like headless chickens like in the Keegan (and to an extent Hoddle) era. I also like that our front six are all creative and dangerous, rather than two players who are there solely as 'stoppers'. That's a huge improvement. What we do have a tendency to do - and it is a predictable tendency, which is a problem because opposition coaches can think of ways to deal with it, is to move our back four to the edge of the box, and our midfield just in front of them. That allows the opposition to bring on very attacking players, knowing that we are probably not going to attack on the break. I don't really blame Sven for that - his plan seems a decent one. If we go one nil up, I've got Michael Owen who has electric pace and is a deadly finisher, and Wayne Rooney who can drop off and find space for shorter balls and buy time for midfield to get up the park. That's a good recipe for a side who play counter-attacking football once they take the lead. It isn't Sven's fault that Owen was out of form and lost confidence in his pace, or that Rooney got injured. If we'd hung on for the 1-0, it might have been a nailbiting performance, but I and most other fans would have been satisfied that we'd got to the semi-finals. I think we could have done, if we had just been a bit more clever with the ball - our defenders did a great job of winning the ball; Campbell and Cole looked magnificent all night, but we gave it away very cheaply, meaning that by the 80th minute, our legs looked very tired and concentration was wavering (am thinking of John Terry for their equaliser) And I'll accept that despite my thoughts pre-Portugal that Vassell looked very lively in earlier games and could be given a run-out, in the event he didn't look like someone who could really replace Owen in the starting lineup. England are NOT awful, overpaid players who can't cut it and don't care. But nor are they champions-elect who were robbed. They are a pretty good team who with some tweaking and a bit more composure will be a difficult side for anyone to face. I'd bloody love England to win it, and yes, it is nice to look round and say - at this tournament, we did better than Germany, Italy and Spain, and as well as France (if not better, at least we were winning and scored two goals, against a side obviously better than Greece) I don't want to moan and whinge about being robbed, and I don't want to slate the team or players for being crap or not caring. I am wistful that we didn't quite pull it off and hopeful that we will work on the areas that might make the difference between seeing out a victory and having it snatched from us right at the death. I'd quite like to see us try the formation that Fergie has tried a few times. Four at the back, then Gerrard and Becks just in front of the back four - both can harry, Gerrard can tackle, both can take the ball off the defenders and PASS it long. Then three very attacking players - Rooney, Scholes, Lampard, and Owen up front. That causes the opposition problems in defending, because how can they tell which of our attacking midfielders is going to play in the hole? It would also let Cole push forward, because there are two midfielders who are there to cover, but not only cover but develop possession and attacks. (But then, tactically, I loved the Dutch formation in France 98 - Jaap Stam at the back, everyone else attacking) Seen the group for the world cup qualifiers? Czech Republic, Holland, Turkey and Greece in a group together? Bloody hell!!!