Scottish for Salmond?
Sun, 2012-03-11 00:47
#1
Scottish for Salmond?
Not being Scottish, apart from my grandpa being a Boddie, I may not have the credentials required to judge on the matter of Scottish independence, but do any Scots actually believe in Alex Salmond's vision or do you, like me, think he's a delusional prannit?
Australia's referendum springs to mind. All well and good slating The Queen until it came to voting.
Closer to home (you don't get much closer than Scotland) the fiasco that is Rangers FC is a good indicator to how Scotland's independence might pan (fizzle?) out.. it seems that chairman Craig Whyte, a Scot who, by the tender age of 15 made £20,000 on stocks and shares and now heads Liberty Capital (a London-based firm that specialises in buying distressed businesses, turning them around and selling them on), has been a little bit cheeky. Maybe he's a secret Celtic fan but the hangover faced by the dismantling of Rangers is now being seen in its true light, even by Celtic fans, as an absolute travesty.
Let's face it, without Rangers, the SPL would be about as entertaining as online bingo, or a personal meeting with Alex Salmond.
All the other SPL clubs (including Celtic) will probably end up buying Rangers just to keep the revenue provided to its own clubs by the Rangers' fans, that is if some nitwit (or the Scottish parliament) doesn't come along and buy it from the hideously capitalistic Whyte to save the SPL from extinction.
Whyte is by no means alone (I think his tax haven is Monaco at the moment). About half if not more of the Labour Party cabinet members under Blair's puke-stained reign hailed from Scotland (I can't remember whether Salmond was in it but it wouldn't surprise me) and they didn't seem to mind screwing up Britain, so what difference is there really between English MPs and Scottish MPS? And i wonder how many Scots work in The City? Quite a few by the sound of it.
My fear is that all the money being spent on gaining independence (and Salmond's place as the most delusional Scot that ever lived) is going to go down the tube when the Scottish people vote against it.
The alliance between England and Scotland has never been better. Why ruin it now for one man's self-importance?
oldpesky
Alex Salmond is a very clever man, and a great orator. Unfortunately, he is also a politician, and full of shit. I think he wants to be remembered in the same breath as Bruce or Wallace.
'Closer to home (you don't get much closer than Scotland) the fiasco that is Rangers FC is a good indicator to how Scotland's independence might pan (fizzle?) out'
That's a ludicrous statement...but it did make me smile...
although it's not as ludicrous as this one -
'All the other SPL clubs (including Celtic) will probably end up buying Rangers just to keep the revenue provided to its own clubs by the Rangers' fans'
That one made me laugh out loud.
Here's a couple of links to enlighten you to the hidden facts of this sordid affair involving the 'establishment club' in this bigoted little country of mine -
http://rangerstaxcase.com/
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/
'About half if not more of the Labour Party cabinet members under Blair's puke-stained reign hailed from Scotland (I can't remember whether Salmond was in it but it wouldn't surprise me)'
Alex Salmond isn't in the Labour Party. He's more likely to paint a saltire on his face and scream, "Freedom!"
I make no secret of the fact I grew up singing songs about getting British troops out of Ireland and despising everything about the British Empire. However, with age I have mellowed and have never felt more British, although, in truth, I don't really know what that means either. I just live from day to day being me.
blighters rock
Thanks OP. You're like a good wine. You mellow with age. I like a good whine but I mellow with age, too.
Course there are hidden facts to this shambolic mess. Money's always at the root.
Rangers wanted to be the Man Utd of Scotland and splashed out on players it couldn't afford, propping up the hopeless dream of becoming part of the English premier league with Celtic. How patriotic?
Patriotism's state of mind but Salmond, who always struck me as a modern Labour man (ie.a liar, cheat and hoodwinker hiding behind a veil of patronising sympathy for the masses while copying Thatcher) is a fraud who doesn't know it. Unlike you, he can't see how Scotland's, and Ireland's, relationship with England has changed over the past 20 years. Such a shame that he can't be a milkman or a posty and be of service to Scotland.
Ireland had to make the mistake of going with Europe to make peace with England.
The Rangers fiasco is all about money, reliant on Scotland's faithful football supporters' desperation to engineer a deal (that's already been set) with as little bother as possible.
Scotland's no different to England when it comes to money.
Panorama's Money Farmers showed me that.
Without Scottish and Irish people, AA would be dead in the water and look at Scottish managers in England. Bruce, Moyes, Ferguson, Coyle to name but a few. Scots have cod liver oil for blood and a backbone that's stronger than any other in the world but that Salmond's about as delusional as the BNP leader, whatever his name is.
Just send him off to Europe where he belongs because if he gets what he wants, that's who Scotland will have to deal with, and look what happened to Ireland.
Highhat
What is he going to do in Europe- EU? Gees that's where they all end up.
We know the Rangers here too- ha ha
Maybe a fish in the sea- this Salmond- sorry for butting in.. This Rangers business is quite well known..even in little Denmark. We like most Scots too, especially OP's- junior and Dad.. what am I saying..?
I'm a chatterbox...
somethingididntdo
There is something like one conservative MP in the whole of scotland (when last i checked). If it was it's own country there would effectively be no tories.
Even now while it's attached in the union, it still manages to spearhead progressive policies and keep things like education free (as opposed to 9k a year...).
When you'e staring down the barrel of a two-tier bullingdon club controlled society without free national healthcare (it's going that way; privatisation of everything else has worked oh so well so far...).
why the hell would you want to stay in the union if you didn't have to?
fuck aye, im all for Salmond. Get away from the Tory fucking madness while we can.
oldpesky
'There is something like one conservative MP in the whole of scotland (when last i checked). If it was its own country there would effectively be no tories.'
This has more to do with the 'first past the post' system than voting numbers. The Liberals, SNP and Tories all received over 400,000 votes.
An independent Scotland would be in the same boat as Iceland. Who would have bailed out Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland after their bubble burst? And don't be fooled thinking they wouldn't have got into that state if Scotland was independent. Here's a letter from Salmond to Fred Goodwin.
http://www.channel4.com/news/salmond-you-keep-scots-bank-debt-well-keep-...
oldpesky
Richard, that Rangers are a strange bunch. They claim to be 'the people' which comes from early in their history when the 'Irish immigrants of the East End' (Celtic) were the strongest team in the land.
The call went out for a Scottish team to take up the challenge. Rangers saw a business oportunity and became 'the Scottish protestant' team who would not sign Catholics. Hence, they claimed to represent the people and became the establishment team.
But these people could never claim to be Scottish nationalists. It would be unthinkable for them to sing songs about being born under a Union Jack and keeping Ulster British while voting Yes for Scottish independence.
They may have wanted to be the Man Utd of the north, but will be remembered more as the RBS of the football world. I wouldn't be surprised if Fred Goodwin was now part of the Blue Knights group trying to rescue them.
Watch this space for how the establishment club gets out of paying its debts so they can once again look down on the rest of us while claiming allegiance to queen and country. It's almost enough to make me wish for independence...but the situation would only be worse.
blighters rock
It's an elaborate tax-dodge, no doubt, Pesky, and I wouldn't be surprised if Whyte popped up as the new owner after the soot hits the ground.
The rich (who are generally backed by the govt in all ways) don't care what's right or wrong. To provide a resolution to a plan that has backfired in their faces is their only wish, and that is to keep Rangers in the SPL come what may.
Rangers fans should take over like Barcelona but the powers that be have made it so financially unstable that only the ultra rich can make a bid.
Whyte bought it for a quid and managed to make money from its further demise.
So incredibly messed up, it only goes to show how capitalism has screwed us all.
I remember the 80's, wondering/hoping that wealth would be shared out more equally with property prices going up and shares being floated to the masses but look at us now. Everyone's in debt and the divide between rich and poor is eight times worse.
They aren't half clever, those rich people, but where will it end unless we take back what's ours?
The Rangers situation can also be likened to the threat of house repossession by a bank from a family with nowhere else to go, with season tickets replacing mortgage repayments.
The only difference is that if the Rangers families decided to cancel their season ticket en masse, the board would have no alternative other than to close down the football club, but this wouldn't be possible because of the ensuing financial implications (ie. the SPL would suffer irreparably).
So, in my little world, it seems that the fans do hold the trump card but they need to play it to get the right result from this fiasco. Calling the bluff of the govt and the board is key, and may well lead to a tax write-off and the club in the hnads of the fans.
As with everything in this world, it's the people that pay, so why shouldn't they own what's rightfully theirs?
Wishful thinking, I know, but it's worth putting out there.
somethingididntdo
I think, re: the bank bailout question. That we'd be in a better state seen as, on a per capita basis, Scotland does better than England, with Scotland effectively losing a large amount of money to England because of the tax setup (Scotland gets less money from tax per head than London or NI, pays its way there, and that's without any f'n oil money either). If anything per person Scotland funded more of the damned bailout than England (this sums it up nicely:http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/nov/03/scotland.devolution).
As for the MP lark. Scotland doesn't use First Past the Post, so that's guff. It uses Mixed-Member Proportional Representation for general elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament), so my point stands: virtually no goddamn tories.
So yeh: too right let's have independence, and a country that prides itself on looking after people and educating them for educations sake, not for GDP.
oldpesky
'As for the MP lark. Scotland doesn't use First Past the Post, so that's guff. It uses Mixed-Member Proportional Representation for general elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament), so my point stands: virtually no goddamn tories.'
There is one Tory MP in Scotland because of the UK General Election which uses first past the post.
In the Scottish Parliament where proportional representation is used there are fifteen (15) Tory MSPs.
So, if Scotland was independent there would be more than one Tory MSP...because...Scotland doesn't use the same system as the UK in General elections. It's really not difficult, but if you want to think I'm wrong with my knowledge of electoral systems, more power to you.
'So yeh: too right let's have independence, and a country that prides itself on looking after people and educating them for educations sake, not for GDP.'
This one made me laugh. Nice one. I'm assuming you deliberately left out the missing apostrophe. My kind of humour.
oldpesky
Richard, the Rangers saga is going to drag through the courts for years. New creditors are popping up faster than daffodils.
It's funny you mention the possibility of the fans taking over. I was at an event yesterday in the Mitchell Library. As part of the Aye Write Festival four authors of books which touch on sectarianism in football read excerpts from their books and answered a few questions afterwards. One of the things that came up was how the fans should take more responsibility. I'm all for that in every club.
Owners and players come and go, but fans are for life. It is they the club belongs to no matter what it says in Companies House. The problem I have with Rangers fans taking control is the direction they would want to take them. No, I don't mean trying to sneak into England through the back door. I mean backwards. The fans would take them backwards. At the moment no-one is in control of Rangers. They are in big trouble for actions off the park, as well as being shite on it, but that's another story.
The fans rallied around the ground, some of them in tears, talking about how the big hoose must stay open, the long history and traditions of the club, how it is more than a club, it is a heritage. Fair play to them, they spoke honestly. And to put their money where their mouths were they sold every ticket for their first home game since entering administration.
So how did 50,000 passionate fans support their team that day. Did they sing songs of Rangers being the most successful league winning team in the world? No. Did they sing about players, past or present? No, apart from a rendition about current manager Ally McCoist (statistically their worst ever manager). Did they sings songs about their opponents on the field of play that day? No.
They sang about sending immigrants back to the country they came from. They sang about being up to their knees in fenian blood. They sang about everything to do with hating Catholics of Irish descent and nothing to do with football.
Only one Scottish newspaper reported the sectarian singing, which could be clearly heard on both radio and TV. That's the country I live in. Make of it what you will.
ps good win for Arsenal tonight. You're on a roll.
blighters rock
I'm out of my depth but glad to see a dialogue to learn from, although laying the blame for Scotland's troubles at the feet of Tories seems short-sighted and naive, especially when there aren't any (or many) Tories in Scotland as it is.
Independence would certainly allow Scotland to grow its own brand of political infrastructure unhindered by outsiders but I reckon it would cause a major resentment with England and inflict untold damage all-round. I also reckon that, once the dust had settled, there would be a sharp increase of Tory MSPs, although they would probably use a new name for themselves, perhaps something fresh and vibrant like the Conservative Party (cough).
It's a sad state of affairs that Scotland seeks independence but if it goes to a referendum and the people vote yes, I wish its people the very best and hope it proves to be a success.
My own hope/view is that Scotland will go to a referendum and will choose to stay with England by about 60/40.
At least a referendum will put the decision in the hands of the people and not just one Scotsman.
At that time, we'll all be able to move on.
oldpesky
Hi Richard, you know I couldn't really give a monkey's about it all. The political elite in this country, like any other country, don't give a damn about me or my friends in the underclass, and we don't give a damn about them.
Your prediction on how the referendum will go got me me thinking. I hadn't seen any opinion polls on the subject. So I found the latest one.
'On the referendum on Scottish independence, 32% of people would vote Yes, 53% would vote No (15% said don’t know or won’t vote).'
Source: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
You have to think that the don't knows and the won't votes have no real passion for independence. If they did, they wouldn't be in either of those camps. Of course, a lot can change between now and the referendum and those figures could change.
Just think, if I want to attend another ABCTales evening in the future I might have to get my passport stamped at border control.
blighters rock
Hi Pesky,
Blackburn and Rangers have a lot in common, then, minus the racism. I feel sorry for Steve Kean but fans are generally so thick and full of shite booze that they couldn't see the ball from the terraces even if it hit them plum in the gob. The Blackburn fans don't know how to react now that they're out of the relegation zone for a bit, but an apology to Kean is probably too much for their brain-cells to come to terms with.
If that's how Rangers fans are, they're welcome to the club!
Keep the faith. That's one thing that'll always be there.
blighters rock
Either that or you'll have to dig a tunnel under Hadrian's Wall. Oh, for the love of Abc!
32/53, hey? Sounds like a Scotland/England rugger match.
Not giving a monkey's is probably the best way forward as Salmond will waste billions on his vision anyway. Can't change other twats, we can only change our own twat selves.
Nighty night.
albamac
blighters rock
Its 10-0 to Archie on good points made, but boo-hooing Northern Ireland puts him in the same basket as AlphaMac so its back to 0-0. I celebrate true peace, as do The Queen and Sinn Fein
albamac
"Its 10-0 to Archie on good points made"
Does Archie deserve a point for this:
"in the 1979 referendum the Scots voted overwhelmingly to stay in the Union."
The referendum on Scottish independence is not scheduled to take place until the autumn of 2014, Archie. The 1979 referendum asked Scots if they wanted the provisions of the Scotland Act 1978 to be put into effect.
The result:
Yes 1,230,937 votes (52 %)
No 1,153,502 votes (48 %)
By what process did a majority of 77,435 become a minority? In this case, George Cunninghame, a Westminster MP, was the instrument by which democracy was subverted. He proposed an amendment to the bill, requiring that 40% of the electorate must vote in favour, thus ensuring that abstainers, absentees and the dead were counted as votes against devolution.
Has that rule been applied to any other democratic vote in the UK?
What's the score, now, br? Should I chip a few more in?
blighters rock
Thats more like it,Alba. Now Im learning something. The English will never want Scotland to become imdependent and this shows the lengths theyll go to stop it. If the ref proves they dont want it its job done but if its yes tje English willshow their true colours and do everything to stop it.
oldpesky
It's heartening to know that someone somewhere is willing to discuss the pros and cons of independence with themself. Personally, I couldn't give a fuck and neither do most of the Scottish people I know. I don't think I even know anyone who votes in any of the different elections. Will they vote in the independence referendum? I very much doubt it. If Salmond wants more than a simple Yes/No on the ballot paper he should include a 'I don't give a fuck' option. This might actually increase turnout, although I doubt that any of us 'I don't give a fuckers' would turnout, but you never know. I believe if voting was compulsory then the 'I don't give a fuck' camp would probably win.
If Scotland votes to remain in the union then England should have their own independence referendum.
Northern Ireland should be returned to the rest of Ireland. England doesn't want it and we already have enough of their shite causing trouble in Scotland. If Ireland doesn't want them in their current state perhaps we could ask Argentina if they want to stake a claim to them in replace of the Falklands.
Of course, there's always the chance that if Scotland claims independence then the English might just invade us all over again, waving their wee flags and wearing their butcher's apron. It's not our oil you want, though. It's our water. Aye, you might well be getting a wee bit of rain now, but you know it won't last, and before long you'll be looking at your ex-lovely English country gardens wilting under the ever-increasingly hot sun, and you'll look to us in the north with our hosepipes gushing needlessly just to taunt you. Well, if you want it, come and get it, if you think you're hard enough, or wrapped up warm and dry enough in suitably waterproofed Goretex kagouls, seeing as your umbrellas and bowler hats will be no match for our winds.
You may take away our sons and daughters as they can't get a decent job up here. You may point at us and laugh at our inability to qualify for major football championships. And you may get cheaper flights to the continent than from any of our airports. But one thing you'll never take away, even if you were to try from this day forth to the end of the world, is our overwhelming desire to talk pish even when sober.
blighters rock
Thanks for the reality check, Peskmeister. I almost thought I could give two poos there but I'm now definitely perched on your 'dont give a fuck' olive branch, happy to watch the squabblers down on the farm and saving a good old crap to splat 'em when they get too loud.
Sure it's Monday fellas, but isn't there anything else we can discuss, like Murray at Wimbledon or the traffic in London during The Olympics Roadworks. what are the odds on another riot?
I just got back from lunch in Chelsea and it's positively dead up there. I think they've all gone on holiday.
Now Rangers, there's a subject worth discussing.
Anyone? Anyone? Anyone?
albamac
"Wrong, wrong, wrong, Alba and Blighters. Firstly, George Cunningham IS A SCOTSMAN."
And your point is? A Westminster politician, working for a Westminster-led, Unionist party acting against the democratic rights of a 'free' people and you ignore all of that by describing him, simply, as a 'Scotsman'.
albamac
"Give me a link to some further reading on this subject, and I shall read it."
Got broadband, Archie?
"The referendum was on devolution, correct?"
Yes.
"It was about setting up a devolved Scottish assembly, yes?"
Yes.
"Well, what is devolution but the first step on the road to full independence?"
Nice try, Archie. Devolution is about the decentralisation of power. Other countries have managed it better than the UK.
"Isn't it safe to assume that the people who wanted a devolved Scotland were mostly the same people who wanted an independent Scotland?"
No, not at all. The latest Ipsos MORI poll (21 June, 2012) suggests that 71% if Scots, including those who want to remain in the Union, are unhappy with the present settlement.
"Yes, I agree that Cunningham rigged the result, but the fact remains that most Scots did not vote for devolution."
By any normal measure, that is not true and nothing you or anyone else says will ever make it so. The vote was rigged and a clear majority in favour was discounted. The British Government cheated! Quelle surprise! (pardon my French, just this once)
albamac
From The Independent:
"In 1975, the Government faced a dilemma: how to exploit the potential of its new oil fields without fuelling demands for Scottish independence. So it buried the evidence".
How black gold was hijacked: North sea oil and the betrayal of Scotland
albamac
So, think you can trust BBC Scotland - well read on ...
albamac
Proving BBC Bias in Scotland
albamac
Russia Today: BBC Bias against Scottish independence
oldpesky
Good grief, that was a bit of a read to catch-up. Did I learn anything interesting? Mmm, well, yes, perhaps I did. Let's see.
'Rather than engage in conversation, oldpesky attempted to discredit that opinion by holding its author up to derision,'
Think you'll find I engaged in lengthy conversation and pointed out, correctly as it happens, that the different voting systems in Scotland and the UK elections is why there is only one Tory MP but considerably more Tory MSPs.
There are none so blind as those who chose not to see.
Next up: The Case of the Missing Apostrophe
I've checked my files and hired Glen Mulcairn to dig deeper than I could possibly didg and, the results are conclusive. The apostrophe is still missing. There is a rumour flying around here that it may be being held hostage by the same group who has Madeleine McCann but I refuse to finance Mulcairn further.
'I took oldpesky to task and you leapt to support him in a position that neither of you could defend, using the same failed approach.'
Ooh, that does sound exciting, but I'm afraid it's a blatant lie. I have not been taken anywhere. Well, not yet anyway. Is there still time? I've had a shower and shave, and my bags are packed. I'm waiting for your call, or even tickets to arrive.
'By the way, wasn't it oldpesky's bullying that prompted me to question his treatment of somethingididntdo?'
Mmm, 'oldpesky's bullying'. Is that really what you or others think about poiting out the irony of missing an apostrophe while talking about education?
Well, I'm afraid if that's the case there is nothing else for me here on ABCTales. My time is up. I am no longer funny. (Was I ever? Who knows?)
I will unsubscribe from this topic with immediate effect and begin work on my resignation letter which will be posted on the site later today. In the meantime I bid you all good day and wish you nothing but the very best in all you do.
blighters rock
I better come clean about my own input on this thread.
Sometimes, when I feel crap and I can't deal with it in a good way, I deflect my own pain onto someone else in the always forlorn hope that it will make me feel better. Wrong every time, and the thing is I know what it does but sometimes it's too easy to deflect and I can't see a way to avoid it in a good way. It always makes me feel infinitely worse beacuse I'm a sensitive sod and don't/can't suffer guilt gladly. Paradoxically, I also have a very strong matryr complex, if there's such a thing, which there must be because I've got it bad.
On this occasion, the twit in me pounced when I noticed a few new additions to this thread. I read a quite well-conducted spat between Archie and Albamac but then I noticed comments from Albamac to Oldpesky, who's always been an absolute rock for me and so many others on this site, so I swooped and went on the facetious-passive-offensive against Albamac.
Not only did I feel worse the moment I joined in (knowing full well that Oldpesky wouldn't want me fighting his battles), I also realised I'd let myself down by berating Albamac, who obviously felt very strongly about Scottish independence for all the right reasons, but that wasn't enough to pull my hand away from the fire. Oh no, as the ping-pong got louder and louder in my head, I had to go the whole hog, such is my overwhelmingly shitty pride and wilfulness.
I didn't care about the debate and used resentment against Albamac as a childish foil to douse completely separate circumstantial and emotional problems, but we all know what happens when we look in the wrong place to get right with ourselves; it backfires in our faces. Well, it does with me anyway.
So I woke up with a headache today, have felt shit ever since I joined in the debate, so I feel it's only right to make an outright apology to you, Albamac, for the things I said, because they had nothing to do with you and everything to do with me. I'll wipe my ignorant posts to you now because you didn't deserve them.
All the best,
Richard.