"eats, shoots & leaves"

One of my favourite Rokkitnite stories featured a chap who'd spent ages writing out a menu for the bar he worked in, and was really proud of it. Then some fat lady comes in and says, "Chip's? Chip's what?" Of course, this chap had put apostrophes in all his plurals, and this fat lady gives him a proper haranguing about it. Afterwards, he feels really upset, and isn't so proud of the menu anymore. I found it really touching. Also, using 'infer' in place of 'imply' on the Al Stewart Mailing List a while back caused the pedants to go doolally. What annoys me about these people is not their thoroughness - I like to be thorough about grammar and punctuation myself, and defend interest in the subject - but the snobbery that comes with it. Yes, it's probably better to take care with something as important as language - no, it does not automatically make you a better person if you happen to do that. You might just be obsessive, as so many of them (it seems to me) are.

Yes it leaves me confused, my punctuation and grammar are appalling.

Ditto!

Punctuation eh? What a hang-up! How inefficient! I think that the occassional misunderstanding about the activities of pandas, though unfortunately hurtful to Chi-Chi and his mates, is out-weighed by the length of time worrying and pondering over getting it all absolutely perfect. Surely the success of the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" proves how easy it is to write a book about unnecesary detail, (I'm now working on "How To Artistically Mow Your Lawn" subtitled "Patterns With Your Mower") Let's just work on "try you're best to get punctuation as right as possible" But what about spelling? Let's make that much easier. Why don't we just go with what tomorrows adults do and ignore all the rules! After all why write "you" when you can do just use "u"? 66% more efficient I reckon, now thats worth perfecting.

Yes, anyone who fusses about someone else's apostrophes must have a corncob stuck up their ****. * I've developed over the years from a person who, without looking into the matter, liked to see as little punctuation as possible, to one who believes that subtlety of grammar, punctuation, and rhetoric is a prerequisite for subtlety of writing. When I decided to become, in my own unpaid way, a writer, I resolved to spend a warm-up year teaching myself as much about the English language as possible - my English teachers having neglected the subject in favour of discussions and theatrics. So I read my way through a dictionary, several grammar books, books about usage, and disquisitions upon syntax, rhetoric, and style; and I analysed the sentences and paragraph structures in my favourite books till I was blue in the face. My friends, particularly those who wrote at all, mocked me for this, saying that I must know the basics of the English language by this late stage in my life, if only because of the History degree sticking out o0f my back pocket. I didn't. A.N.Whitehead was right: "Style, in its finest sense, is the last acquirement of the educated mind". You have to strip your writing down, I believe, before you can build it into something your own. The new knowledge that resulted from all this endeavour didn't just serve to improve my prose technically; it released me creatively - because language, I came to realise, is a form of logic. If you want to say four things in one short sentence, some understanding of how language works is essential. I emerged as an advocate of accuracy, but not for reasons of pedantry. Pedants should be trodden underfoot. d.beswetherick.

There are ways of simplifying punctuation, if that's what you want to do. I wrote a whole novel without a single ellipsis, colon, semicolon, bracket or dash. To do that, you have first to train yourself to write simple sentences. The best approach, I'd say, is to stick to one idea per sentence. And try to introduce the main subject and verb within the first six or seven words of each sentence, the best way of avoiding laborious sentences that I know. Use a comma for one of the following reasons (as well as for speech punctuation, and other simple uses). 1. To separate adjectives that qualify a noun in the same way. ("A cautious, reserved person".) You do not necessarily need a comma when two consecutive adjectives qualify a noun in separate ways. ("A distinguished foreign journalist.") 2. Parentheticals. Use commas to separate off material that interrupts the continuity of thought. ("I realised that Jane, one of my best friend's sisters, was in the broom cupboard.") 3. Appositives. Use when you immediately describe the same thing by a different name. ("My friend, Simon, is always late.") This use only differs from 2. in being distinguished from appositives in which commas aren't needed. ("My friend Simon is always late".) In the second example I only have one friend. This is a tricky distinction that catches many writers out. These next two are the trickiest ones, where writers are often inconsistent or sloppy. 4. Between coordinated main clauses. ("He went to the shop, and then he went to the bank.) This is a matter of style, and some would skip the comma. I believe it to be essential. Omit the comma only when the subject is the same and not restated. ("He went to the shop and then to the bank.") Also omit the comma in very short sentences. ("He laughed and he cried.) Also omit the coma when two actions are closely causal and consequential. ("I kicked him and he fell over.") 5. Introductory clause. Whether or not to use a comma after an introductory clause is a constant worry. It's a matter of choice, that's the trouble. A comma is sometimes needed for clarity. ("In the summer, heat is often problem." Sometimes a comma sounds right just because it has the effect of a pause. There's no point trying to be consistent on this one. I judge each case on its merits, but I use as few introductory clauses as possible because I believe they make prose soggy. 6. The final comma in a list. The British way is to leave off the last comma in a list. Some people leave it or include it according to the merits of each case. I go with the American or Oxford style, which is to always include the last comma. ("For breakfast I had eggs, beans, bacon, and fried bread.") It would take me too long to go into my resons, but suffice to say that using the comma every time means that your list will never confuse, as does the following example. ("The coffin was attended by his daughters, the Duke of Devonshire and George Melly.") A list, by the way, should normally ascend or descend in sections of equal grammatic weight. Depart from that principle and the commas can get into a mess. Well, these observations are the result of considerable trial, error, and study on my part, and I'm sure others will have their own systems. I'm not, incidentally, in favour of writing without colons, semicolons, parentheses, ellipses, and dashes. But it can be done and is, in my opinion, a good exercise to start with if you want to sort your punctuation out. Damn, I've written this instead of watching the horse racing. d.beswetherick.

And there I went, breaking my own rule in the first sentence. He who shoots mouth off looks a prat.

Thanks for that Bes. I for one do find that very useful, not having given much thought to the way I constructed my sentences.

It does get right on my t!t's when you're expected to get everythang spot on. We're not all that clever but we still have sh!t to say. Perhaps if people didn't bang on so much about, god forbid, the odd stray comer then maybe more people would attempt to write? Or am I talking sh!t. Comments on a postcard please (but only if you can punctuate properly). Having said that, I do have respect for those that have the patience to learn. sneak on a rope isn't it the season of goodwill?

Well d. Bes what a brick you are to help others and that inclue's me, also as I to love the racing I know what you gave up. I asked and received this book for Christmas and am very disapointed as it made no sence to me remembering that I have a very!! old brain so love things that are simplified and need all and any help I can get, you have certainly in part helped to do that, so a huge! thankyou from me and if you ever have time on your hands and you think something might be usefull no matter how small !!! my e - mail address above is alway at your disposal as learning is so crucial to me now and the only thing that seems to drive me now adays. Never!!! Ever!! feel bad if you just can't or would rather not comply with my request I will fully!! understand with no explanation needed on your part and once again thanks for your time already given + "Happy New Year"...

An anal-retentive person would surely have a full colon, not a semicolon, unless of course the person is post-op.

"3. Appositives. Use when you immediately describe the same thing by a different name. ("My friend, Simon, is always late.") This use only differs from 2. in being distinguished from appositives in which commas aren't needed. ("My friend Simon is always late".) In the second example I only have one friend. This is a tricky distinction that catches many writers out." The second example does not necessarily suggest that you only have one friend. Your friend Bertha might well be very punctual. To write "My friend, Simon, is always late." is incorrect punctuation unless this is dialog in which the speaker is standing next to Simon and speaking to a third party or parties and gestures to Simon at the appropriate moment. The key determinant in this case is whether the appositive is restrictive or nonrestrictive. Example from Strunk and White (The Elements of Style, page 4): My cousin Bob is a talented harpist. (restrictive) My oldest daughter, Mary, sings. (non-restrictive) My Strunk and White is the Second Edition. I have been carrying it around the world with me since 1972. It contains fewer than 100 pages, and I'm sure you could all find a used copy on Ebay or at Oxfam for a pittance.

My cousin Bob is a talented harpist. (restrictive) My oldest daughter, Mary, sings. (non-restrictive) I see what you mean; I chose a bad example. I should have said "my friend Simon" could imply *either* that you have only one friend called Simon or that you have only one friend. I think it wise to use commas if in doubt, because this is a matter of debate not only between you and me but between the authorities. My grammar book says: Grammarians disagree about whether such structures as the following show apposition or not: the number thirteen my sister Mary the expression "greenhouse effect" * I didn't drag up terms like "restrictive" and "non-restrictive" because the original poster was complaining about difficulty in understanding the explanations.

My grammars dead now. She died in 1984. I never knew my Granddad’s. Isn't it odd how we think of dead people at this time of year? ...hello? isn't it dark? nice sneak on toast

you never knew your Granddad's... what? Oh! Am I getting my punctuation mixed up? I have always been intrigued by... -What is this thing called love? -What is this thing called, love? -What is this? thing called "love" -What! Is this thing called love? etc, etc, you get the idea

Cut n' pasted from amazon.co.uk, a review of the said book - Smug, offensive and elitist 28 November, 2003 Reviewer: rfdesign from Cambridge., Cambs United Kingdom If you really want to buy a book about the correct use of punctuation then I recommend G.Carey's Mind the stop. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a book that is smug and derisive towards those with a less than adequate education then this book will fill you with delight. On page 5 you will find "we got very worked up after 9/11 not because of Osama Bin Laden but because people on the radio kept saying "enormity" when they meant "magnitude" and we really hate that". I think there are many that would be deeply offended by this paragraph alone but sadly such insensitivity sets the tone for the whole book. A little earlier in the book Lynne Truss tells us of her dealings with an elderly charity shop worker who, on being told by the author about her incorrect punctuation of a window sign, told her to "bugger off, get a life and mind your own business". Three cheers for the lady in the charity shop...