You people make me sick! How can you dribble on about love like it is something to be sought after, to obtain, to quest for...
Give me cherries and stars, I want nothing more. ABCtales and coffee...its all I need. Sure, I could have a life but who wants to go out and find someone and have them grind your heart into dust...again.
Please excuse me...I'm low on coffee and I've been listening to a lot of Elvis lately.
Sir Folgers
Dear John, I think it's great that you love Bhuddism, spirituality on this sight is always food for groans, I'm afraid, but Buddhism is more right on than Christianity so you might be ok.
Blimey have I told you how much I love Jesus, I could bore for England, but they won't let me.
Talking about religion gets people nervous but pushes some beautiful buttons,
is that another tangent?
My definition of love is changing a nappy on an 80 year old while assuring her that it 's ok and loving her vulnerability.
It's grace imparted and the revelation that it could be you, love costs something, and is more action than words.
Well, Liana it might not sound so good but its dead right isn't it?
Love is a doing word. How many times do people say 'I love you' and then behave in a way that proves exactly the opposite. Yeah, when it comes to love, action speaks loads louder than words.
I forgive you Liana seeing as how you know morea bout lyrics than anyone I've ever met - and I've never even met you.
Cheers
Dear John, I think it's great that you love Bhuddism, spirituality on this sight is always food for groans, I'm afraid, but Buddhism is more right on than Christianity so you might be ok.
Blimey have I told you how much I love Jesus? I could bore for England, but they won't let me.
Talking about religion gets people nervous but pushes some beautiful buttons,
is that another tangent?
My definition of love is changing a nappy on an 80 year old while assuring her that it 's ok and loving her vulnerability.
It's grace imparted and the revelation that it could be you, love costs something, and is more action than words.
"Love is a piano
Dropped from a four storey window
And you were in the wrong place
At the wrong time"
Ani Difranco - from the album "Little Plastic Castle".
Hi MYB,
This is really going to put the proverbial cat amonst the pigeons.
Yes, after reading many of your postings I am aware that you are a Christian whatever that means in 2001!!
May I ask you where your God was, when from being born I was continually abused and battered on a daily basis by my mother?? Sexually abused by her many boyfriends, who in turn relished sexually abusing me.
Then my first child at the age of seventeen was Down's Syndrome. First husband physically abused me (he was a policeman). Did your deity come and help me . NO, I helped me.
The above posts are so condescending about the 'love yourself first". Well take it from me, after thinking that I was unlovable for the best part of my life, I learnt through many hours of counselling, that yes, you really do have to love yourself first. Because if YOU can't believe in yourself, how can any one else? And do you know something, I do love myself. I look in that mirror and I know that I am a good person who loves and loves being loved.
If it wasn't for the world's religions we would just be people and get on. In my opinion most of the world's troubles are caused by religion. Forget it. Give me people everytime, I don't care what your religion is, it's people that matter, not the God that they support.
AJ
I think what AJ is trying to say Mark, is that you may be a God loving whatever and there may be others, but we don't want it rammed down our throats. In short, I and people of my ilk are perfectly happy being whatever kind of infidels you may like to call us. I don't need any fairy story to get me through my life and I don't need any kind of pity either.
Keep your religion to yourself! Or is it in your contract of employment that you have to tell everyone about it? I'd advise you to read Rupert books, you get a better class of story there!
I've been longing for a thread about religion, gosh if you give it out you gotta put your money where your mouth is.
AJ because of your awful early experiences I don't know how to answer that without sounding glib, I don't want to compare trauma, but how does that disprove God? Do you think for the past 2000 years all those millions of people, those great minds, who have believed, have never questioned God about suffering?
My faith is a personal thing but it has transformed my life. Christ is so tangible to me, I love him so much, of course I share it. He's not my only topic in my poetry, but he is a constant. There are loads of love poetry on the site isn't there?
I believe the fallen human race messess things up beautifully, we need God, where do you think we come from, some sub-particle big-bang particle experience that just happened to create an incredible, ordered, fantastic universe. What about our human conciousness, the ability to think. to philosophise,
to know our mortality, mere chance?
That's like going to a restaurant enjoying your meal and then saying you don't believe in the chef!
Mississippi, I love your Bobby Charlton!
Yeah well, I suppose I was a bit over the top! I apologise Mark, but you do have to accept that maybe Darwin was right.
It's been generally accepted for a long time that it's asking for trouble to discuss religion or politics in social situations unless it is within a dedicated arena. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a theology forum for all the believers, then such as I wouldn't have to feel threatened by evangelists. I have tried to be tolerant over the years but this has been eroded, in part by the constant stream of JW's that knock on my door and try to tell me I'm doing it all wrong.
I seem to be showing the same intolerance to smokers who impose their disgusting, life threatening habit on anyone within breathing distance and insist it's their right to do so. And whilst I'm on the soapbox I may as well alienate those who allow their dogs to defecate all over the streets, local park and anybody's garden and walk off leaving it there!
Right, now let me see..... that's the jesus freaks, the disgusting smokers and the four-legged crap machine owners!
Have I left any unacceptable social group out? If I have don't go getting a complex about it, it's just a temporary oversight. Consider yourselves castigated!
Before I get deluged with vitriol, I make a blanket apology to all and any who may be incensed by this post. I don't mean to be offensive though I can see that some may take it differently.
'Not a christian', I don't know what came over me.
Liana, I know I'm not your favourite person (although you have been wrong about me on at least one recent thread where I chose not to comment on the grounds that I shouldn't have to keep defending myself against accusations directed at me in error). On the point of courtesy, you may not accept it but I show more than I receive!
A Jesus freak, probably.
The force of your arguement leaves me momentarily stunned. Darwin, is he that big bloke with a beard.
You can be related from monkeys, I prefer the seed of Adam.
About not discussing religion and politics, only if you have something to fear.
You shouldn't be able to shake a real faith, but ideas should be challenged if they can be, that's why it's good to debate.
There is a place to discuss religion to a point when there is obvious false representation.
But true faith in God is an incredibly personal experience you can't share that experientially.
Blimey, what a hornets nest, can of worms, conundrum, enigma thingy we seem to have opened up.
Just a couple of things.
First, its pretty nigh on impossible to mention religion without laying yourself open to the accusation of preaching or, as mississippi puts it, 'ramming it down our throats.' Can't speak for anyone else but all I was doing was passing on a bit of personal information in the way you might say 'I love chocolate cake' or 'I'm an Arsenal supporter.' A religion in itself for some, no doubt. Not for me, I hasten to add - I'm a Wolves supporter. Sorry if this sounds like I'm ramming football down your throat, mississippi. Didn't realise there were any rules about what we could and couldn't discuss.
As regards love, I just want to say once more that for myself, in my opinion, without wishing to preach to anyone,
(especially you mississippi whose views I revere, respect and venerate - whatever they may be) real love has very little to do with one-on-one relationships which can, to say the least, be very limitting. It's much bigger than that and involves 'joining in' with the World at large rather than 'turning inwards' into your own intimate circle of friends and family. This is one of the things that makes the WWW so exciting, you can reach a mighty large slice of the World pretty damn quick. For the type of love I'm talking about, think of Mother Theresa, St. Francis of Assissi and (dare I say it) Jesus Christ. As far as I'm aware none of these were famous for having loads of personal, intimate, one-to-one relationships but they all knew quite a lot about love, all the same. This is kind of why I asked the question in the first place. Beginning to wish I hadn't bothered.
By the way, mississippi, if you insist on so readily dismissing something that billions of people have held dear for thousands of years there's just the slightest chance we might start to think of you as ever-so-slightly arrogant and closed-minded. And before you say it, yes - I know you don't care what we think about you. Except, of course, you do, don't you. Anyway, I reckon despite what you say, you've got your very own secret religious order. After all, we all need something to believe in. Even Nihilists believe in nothing, which itself is 'something.' That's their ultimate dilemma. I reckon you worship the Great God RUDE. That's fine by me, mate - I visit that particular altar myself from time to time. Just try not to ram it down our throats quite so much, will ya?
I only express my opinions in the hope that others will do likewise and we can maybe all learn something from each other. I kind of thought that was the whole point. Come on, mississippi, say something we can learn from. We all know how to be gratuitously rude already. It's easy - I'd mastered it by the time I was four.
All I can say to AJ is; its the ones who hate the World who turn their hatred on themselves and others. By contrast, the counsellors who helped you presumably loved the World otherwise why would they bother spending their lives trying to help? After all, the pay isn't that good is it? Maybe I've got this all wrong but try reading 'The Road Less Travelled' by Somebody Peck (forgotten first name, apologies) which explains that almost the first rule of counselling, psychiatry or any caring profession is that you must first love the patient. So, the way I see it AJ, before you could learn to love yourself, someone had to love you first. A weird 'chicken-and-egg' situation, I admit. As for myself, when I look in the mirror I see a good person, a bad person, a mixed up person - the whole goddamn thing all at once. What's more I never quite know which one is going to turn up on any given day. I put up with this very dodgy bloke on the other side of the mirror and still somehow manage to love him. After all what choice have I got? As it happens, I try not to look in the mirror too much anyway, being a bit of an ugly old bastard.
Disclaimer. All the above is nothing more than a personal opinion and I've probably got it all wrong anyway. Plus, I'll probably believe something totally different this time next week.
Don't shout at me, mississippi. It might hurt and I'm your brother, whether you like it or not.
Just a little joke to end with.
What did the Buddhist say in the pizza parlour?
'Make me one with everything.'
Well I did say it was a little joke.
So that's it 'Love is a pizza made with everything.' That'll do for me until someone comes up with a better definition.
Even divine intervention ain't gonna help the Wolves, Mark. You certainly need faith to support 'em and that's a fact.
Cheers for the info on the book.
John, I don't believe there are any rules of engagement here, are there? I thought I'd pre-empted any further comment regarding rudeness by apologising in advance but it didn't seem to work! I notice you have resorted to the same device John with your disclaimer.
The need or desirability of religion of any kind is obviously a different can of worms, as you put it, for everyone. As ever I speak for myself alone, but have never found the need for explanations that critical that I have evaded the problems presented by my existence in the universe by resorting to theories expounded by 'leaders', who in the main died thousands of years ago when superstition was rampant around the globe.
I have no gods! I don't need any gods! I know instinctively what is right and what is wrong! I think most people do.
I don't always live by this but I do try, honestly.
With regard to the 'readily dismissing' religion bit, it wasn't 'readily' at all but based on 2000yrs. of killing, rape, theft, greed and sinister control of the masses by way of superstition, all in the name of one god or another, whilst claiming that their religion was based on LOVE for their fellow human! Do intelligent adults really believe this? My personal view took many years to arrive at I always found it strange that the 'poor as a mouse parochial vicar' lived in the largest house in the village and seemed to do little else except indoctrinate his parishioners before passing round the begging bowl. Oh yes, and they 'do' hatches, matches and dispatches and charge you extra if you want bells. They also seem to be falling into disrepute in ever-increasing numbers with allegations of adulterous behaviour, homosexuality and child abuse an almost daily inclusion in the papers. In short religions are responsible for more deaths, pain and misery than almost any other form of human contact (I'll leave out any reference to football here, I don't want to start an inter-club war, there seems to be several already under way and they don't need me exacerbating the situation).
Please don't ask me say anything you can learn from John, I'm no soothsayer or sage, just another guy trying to get through my life and make a few connections. Mostly I've failed.
All of the above was said in a quiet composed voice, not intended to browbeat or unnerve anybody, especially you John.
I really like and respect this answer mississippi - and I'm not joking. I'm going to go away and think hard about it. Don't mean to insult you but I think you and me have much more in common than I imagined before this full and frank exchange. In fact, the para starting 'Please don't ask me etc., etc.,' says it all. For this oversight and misunderstanding, I apologise. Thank you very much.
I've got the same reservations about organised religion as you. Speaking personally, its just that being a weak and frail human being I need at least some guidance - a belief system if you like. Without one, I'm apt to go terribly wrong and do some pretty stupid and harmful stuff. Even with a belief system I reckon, just like you, I fail more than most. I'm not so sure as you are that I can recognise right from wrong without at least a bit of help. One thing I would say is that blaming religion for what people do in it's name is a bit like blaming the motor car for boy racers. Also, I must admit, I've always been a 'seeker after truth' (it's an illness you know) whilst simultaneously accepting there might not be any such truth. This is my own personal dilemma, though I'm absolutely sure I share it with lots of others. Believe me, I'm not crying about this - it's what makes life interesting. After all, a puzzle is no use once you've solved it, is it? Maybe one day we can meet and I'l buy you a big pint of whatever takes yer fancy. Cheers.
I'll even admit you're right about the football thing - it can be a bit dangerous especially when treated as a religion. Still, standing on the terraces, toe to toe with yer mates don't half make yer feel alive. I know this is politically incorrect but that don't make it any the less true. That's all in the past for me anyway, so what the heck.
Anyway, I'm just off now to ceremoniously lay my gold and black scarf across my Wolverhampton Wanderers altar, speak in the tongues of the Black Country and burn a bit of Stevie Bull limited edition incense. Then, filled with such religious zeal, I think I might just go out and sacrifice a few West Bromwich Albion supporters. Pretty obviously this is a joke, just in case the chatroom police are logged in.
Godel demonstrated that there is a difference between truth and proof and that's as valid for religion as anything else. You can neither prove, nor disprove the existence of God. All you can do is choose what to believe. I don't believe in God myself - I don't choose to believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
However, the mere fact that at a time of war and smiting and intolerance, one man either stood up and said, "Why don't we all try to love each other" - or at the very least, a group of people invented the idea of one man doing this and it stuck, is still quite an impressive thing.
If there is a God, then people have no real idea of what He's about and therefore we need to dissociate religion and organised religion. An awful lot of terrible things have gone on in the name of organised religion, no doubt about that.
For me, on the principle of Occams Razor, its a lot easier to believe that primitive people chose to believe in life after death because its much less frightening than the alternative. But, so long as people who choose to believe in God also try to be kind and tolerant, I'm happy to coexist.
On a theological point, I don't really grasp how by crucifying Jesus, the human race earned their salvation. I get that Jesus made a huge sacrifice on our behalf, but it doesn't seem to me that we earned it in any way, just behaving in the same apalling way as ever.
Missi-
I honestly don't know why you even say "I know I'm not your favourite person"
I have no particular feelings either way about you - other than accepting that you do, as you yourself put it "Speak (or type) before you think"
I think that most people probably do on occasion, I'm no exception, but I try hard not to - I don't like upsetting anyone very much, and I certainly never do it with deliberate spite intention.
Maybe l shouldnt have posted that message after only being awake for 30 mins, and having just discovered I'd run out of tea - Grr. But, the rudeness incensed me..sorry.
Your above couple of posts show an intelligent, articulate man with so much to contribute - why you bother letting yourself down so much with trite and nasty comments on occasion, is beyond me.
And, if I attacked you on a previous thread, then I'm truly sorry - I obviously didn't realise, that, or I was on an off day myself :o)
As I said, we all do it....
I just get so sick and tired of all the nastiness. Not you, Missi.
Perhaps putting email addresses into the headers should be mandatory, that way, when people are incensed with postings, they can mail the writer personally. I know you and I have corresponded in the past.
Saves all this online bitching, which, quite frankly, leaves a sour taste in the mouth.
Bringing it BACK TO THREAD topic......
Maybe we should all show a little more love?
Ha....sorry about that..
Can't resist another go.
Do you remember those lines in 'If' that go something like,
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools
Well, that's kind of what's happened to religion, but you can't really blame that on religion, can you. Blame it on the knaves who twisted it and, to a lesser extent, the fools who believed what the knaves told 'em. That's exactly why I prefer to work my religion out for myself and Buddhism fully allows for that. As I understand it Buddha was not, nor did he ever claim to be, any kind of deity. He made a point of advising his followers to think for themselves and not just accept what he said.
The route of the word religion is the Latin verb 'ligare' which means to bind or connect so it might help to think of religion as the thing that binds and connects you to the rest of mankind. Mississippi, I think I recollect you saying something like you 'were just a guy going through life trying to make a few connections' or have I got that wrong. You are trying 'ligare' mate whether you know it or not. Dangerously close to religion. As I see it, religion doesn't have to be either formal or superstitious . You could easily argue that there are as many religions as there are people or as I believe it says somewhere (though I could be wrong) 'If you would find God, look within yourself.' Religion is, maybe above all else, personal and as such should be respected if only on the basis that my argument is fundamentally no more likely to be right (or wrong for that matter) than yours.
As for how the World started, the origin of the species etc., Darwin and relgion are not mutually exclusive. Darwin himself strongly believed in God if my memory serves. Pretty obviously if you want to argue that we all evolved from primitive sea-creatures that still doesn't explain where the primitive sea-creatures came from. Personally, I don't much mind if I sprung from the seed of Adam or the seed of a three billion-year old sea-amoeba just so long as whoever it was, they were a right-on, cool-dude Wolves supporter who could write like JD Salinger and looked like Ricky Martin. At least I'd have a half-decent gene-pool to work with then. Trouble is, I've got the horrible suspicion that I descended from someone who supported Hereford United (no disrespect) could write like Ricky Martin and looked like JD Salinger.
Ain't life a bitch, when all's said and done. Or as my wayward son rather inelegantly puts it 'Life's a @!#$ sandwich, take a big bite.'
No whimper that, Andrew.
Seeing as how I started this thread (although originally it was about something totally different - check and see) I'm gonna have one last go at describing religion in my terms.
First off, I think I made a big mistake many postings ago by carelessly saying 'I love Buddhism'. It's not that this was a lie or anything it's just that on reflection this statement was bound to convey the idea that I loved one particular 'formal' religion. This is far from the truth. The reason I love buddhism (small 'b' deliberate) is that after looking all my life for something that would 'fit' with my basic beliefs, my instincts if you like, I quite accidentally found Buddhism and it does fit. For me, that is. In much the same way that Christianity fits for MYB maybe. This might sound strange, but I neither believe it or don't believe it - it just feels 'right' and I can now make more sense of the World. Though still not that much sense I hasten to add.
As I've tried to say before, my idea of religion is something that connects and binds you to the World so the whole thing doesn't seem so goddamn pointless - or at the very least, senseless. I have the feeling, and I could well be wrong, that all human beings have this need - dare I say, longing - at their very core. Does anyone really want to think of themselves dropped, so to speak, naked into the landscape, un-connected to their brothers and sisters, without common thread? I know I don't, but then again I'm a weak and frail man and I freely admit I need all the help I can get.
Many postings ago mississippi said he instinctively knew right from wrong. This raises an interesting, but hardly original, point. If there is no deeper meaning to life, what is the point of 'right' and 'wrong'? Why don't we all just go through life fulfilling our own selfish needs without regard for one another. If we're all nothing more than part of an accidental and elaborate chemical equation, would it really matter?
I accept many of the arguments about religion and superstition but I take this to be the parable, the mythology of the thing. By mythology I mean the telling of a little lie so as to convey a big truth. Personally I've got no problem with that whatsoever. A bit like sugaring the pill to help the medicine go down. I'm no more prepared to believe that 'God' built the World in six days then had Sunday off than I'm prepared to believe that there'll be a new Wembley Stadium in NW10 in time for us to play Albania on Wednesday night. For me, none of this matters in the slightest.
As for bad stuff done in the name of religion, you can't blame Henry Ford for boy-racers even if (maybe) you can blame him for lots of other stuff.
So for me, religion is whatever helps me feel most comfortable with myself and all my brothers and sisters - what makes most sense of the World if you like. As it happens I don't believe in Gods (of any denomination) or necessarily an afterlife but I do believe that all human beings are searching for a meaning, a Truth, a homeland for the soul/spirit/heart if you like. Just like ABC tales there is a common thread joining us all together. This is what I mean when I talk about religion. Sorry I've done such an absolutely crap job of explaining myself.
You might have noticed there are quite a few question marks in this posting. That's 'cos I've got loads of questions and no answers whatsoever. Sometimes I think there are no answers. Sometimes I think there aren't even any questions.
But all the same I have to keep looking - just in case, you understand.
Surely nobody and everybody is right on this one!
Love is something different for everyone, and that's the frustrating thing about it. When somebody says 'I love you' to someone else the speaker knows what he/she means but the listener puts their own interpretation on it and often the two are something entirely different.
As I've learned to my cost!
Love IS: Not noticing the smell in the loo!!
Love IS: Or the smelly socks!!
Love IS: The bald patch, the beer belly etc etc etc.
Like I said Love IS.
It might have been the Bunty or the Judy, Liana.
AJ :>)
Man created God. It's a fundamental need to have a power higher than ourselves, a shelter and a comfort.
It doesn't work for me but I have seen people very happily high on religion. Grudgingly, I have a little envy. I do however believe in being christian with a small 'c' as far as possible, ie kind, empathetic etc.
(goes off to ponder)
No - I think there are a million different kinds - and everyone has a different definition or idea of what romantic love is / should be / should involve.
When someone asks me, "are you religious?" it gets me nervous. In one way it's true I have a `religion`, but if it was just that I wouldn't bother. I believe in God because of an amazing and embarrassing conversion experience which I couldn't deny. Before that I thought Christians were sad because they saw only way way to God, through Jesus.
That was ten years ago and I have seen too many miracles of faith and healing to deny it's truth. I saw them because I was walking that path. For me it's about a personal faith in a God who has made himself available through his Son, pretty straight forward sunday school type stuff, which I happen to believe. I don't judge God by human frailties, weaknesses, excesses, hatred, murderous actions in the name of religion. Why blame God for what man does, that's a cop out. He has given us free will, to walk the path he walked or deny him and put ourselves on the throne of our lives.
I love the effect the name `Jesus` has . It seems to conjure up so many negatives because what has been done in His name. Yet when you ask people what they think about Him it's, "oh he was a good bloke, a good teacher, prophet, and so forth. The funny thing is in His own words he didn't give us that option, He equated himself with God!
Therefore he was either mad, a liar or who he says he was, I happen to believe the latter.
Oh by the way did I say how much I love Him, I did? oh Sorry to be boring!
to quote the gang of four from their opus "love is like anthrax":
"love crops up quite a lot as something to sing about, most groups make most of their songs about falling in love...It's because these groups think there's something very special about it either that or else it's because everybody else sings about it and always has, you know to burst into song you have to be inspired and nothing else inspires quite like love... I just don't think that what goes on between two people should be shrouded in mystery"
explains a lot i think
....and, on being boring...
I racked my brains to think of how I offended Missi on another thread....
then the site went down.
Today, it went back up, and I realised at once which thread it was.
And actually, it wasnt me. If it was, it wouldve been headed "Liana"
Previously, I was also accused of being "reluctant voyeur"
All I can say is, I'm sure I'm not the only ntl user.
I know Missi isnt the only worldonline user either - Dave Randall got verbally abused in email once for something that someone supposed he'd written.
He hadnt - it was someone different.
I've never used the phrase "you suck big time" - though it has its possibilities looked at another way.
*sighs with satisfaction at having got it off chest*
Oh sod it!
When I spoke about knowing right from wrong John I meant that when ever I do something that affects someone else I think about how I would feel if it was done to me, and if I don't like the feeling I assume it ain't nice! But being human I sometimes do it anyway, sorry.
Hey you Fecky
I never blamed GOD, why 'cos there is no such thing. LISTEN UP NOW. IT WAS MY MOTHER WHO BATTERED ME AND MENTALLY ABUSED ME. IT WAS HER BOYFRIENDS WHO TAMPERED WITH MY EIGHT YEARS OLD BODY, IT WAS MY MOTHER WHO IGNORED MY PLEAS TO DEFEND ME. IT WAS MY HUSBAND WHO BELTED ME. AND MY BODY WHO GAVE BIRTH TO MY BEAUTIFUL DOWN'S SYNDROME SON. NOT GOD. AND YES PEOPLE ARE IMPORTANT NOT THAT SO CALLED OMNIPOTENT AND MYTHOLOGICAL BEING WHO ALLOWS DESTRUCTION, MURDER AND MAYHEM IT ITS NAME.
And do YOU and MYB know something I personally don't give a s..t what you think re GOD or the sublime counsellor (who must love to give me love) come on now this is 2001. Only someone who HASN'T had a bad life can sit on that big old fence and spout their words of so called wisdom. Well do me a favour and save it for some poor old illeterate person 'cos I sure don't need the sermon.
There is only one person responsible for your actions, not god , but yourself. So back to that mirror. I used to think that I was a bad person as everyone in my life had abused me. WRONG, the only crime that I was guilty of was loving that person so much that I allowed them to do it.
Finally, in history. Take away religion, how many wars would there have been??
Missi: Sorry sunshine to disappoint you, but I'm one of those foul smokers, and I also own a dog.
AJ
relevance of the policeman, thicko. is he is supposed to protect not abuse.
AJ
PS How come MYB and others of the religious order never commiserated with me on my fathers death?? Hmmm maybe your are not as compasionate as you make out??????????????
Dear AJ, I am truly sorry for your father's death, let alone the more than awful life you had as a child. I think when use the facts of your trauma in debate, it's not really debate, unless we play "I've suffered more than you, which is pointless because who can say one person's suffering is worse than another. To suggest that only people who have not had a bad life can spout wisdom is, well not true AJ, and you know that if you thought about it.
There is no God, thanks for putting me right about that I can get on with my life now, and pretend that for the last ten years it hasn't been transformed by truth and love.
Finally, as I've said it's great to `debate` spirituality, but not if it's going to hurt people that much.
MYB,
You started off well re:commisserations on my father's death (shame you had to be prompted, being the good christian that you are)!!!!!!
Shame that you had to lower yourself to become sarcastic and deny your god!!
You miss my point, you are happy, great. Why are you happy because of god, nah. You are happy because of you and how you live.
Re: using trauma as a topic for debate, no, I use facts to debate, not mythicological events etc.
I don't ask anyone to feel sorry for me, I don't. But please don't preach some ethereal being as the purpose for my life.
We are all born with nothing, we die with nothing it's the middle part of our being that matters.
AJ
You could put alomst any household object after the words "Love is..." and you'd get a metaphor to exercise your brain with....but it might also work with "Life is..." or "Sex is...." or Going to work is..."
Try juggling with the responses:
like a dirty bowl of washing up (solution= wash up more regularly)
like burnt toast ( watch the toaster more carefully or eat rice cakes)
like a fresh cream cake
an empty dustbin
a hoover
the dust under the bed
It all depneds onyour mood and your mental health
I would never deny my God! Gosh! No seriously It's the way you say, there is no God, with such authority. I say I believe in God, and for me There is a God. Perhaps you should just qualify it. AJ I so don't feel any stress towards you,nor pity but I am sorry that your hurt has resulted in the conclusion there can't be a God. You are a feisty Lady who has obviously overcome greathardships and turned things around, thats all, the debate about God should be able to be continued without such ...anger.
AJ God turned my life completely around, too many miracles to deny him. You have the complete choice to reject Him or the idea of Him, He can handle it, He's God.
On the subject of suffering.
There was this guy who was born 2000 years ago in one of the smallest provinces of the Roman empire, to a despised race. He was considered illigetimate. At the age of 30 he started an itinerate ministry, went about healing people miraclously, preaching a message of repentance and forgiveness. Never wrote a book, never owned a building, never had a real place to lay his head, only really did good and preached love. Well, he was betrayed by one of his own followers, the rest left him to face his accusers alone. He was falsley arrested, spat on, scourged witha whip, taunted, had his beard ripped out. Then he faced a riggrd trial and finally was crucified the worse form of execution around at that time and the most shameful. Jesus knows our suffering because he suffered.
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