Indigo Children: Bollocks or Buddhas?

If that's directed at me, then fuck you. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

I'm not sure what people are arguing about any more...

All that university education and thats the best you can do? My. Your argument is SO flawed.

coveted bassoon

double-post

'I get it now. The reason you hate straw men so much is because you didn't go to Uni yourself and feel that any attempt to cite it as an important experience is some kind of slur on your choices.' Jack, I don't think uni is unimportant. It does provide more choices and, judging by some of my wife's tales about uni life, can be one of the most enjoyable periods of a young person's life. But lifestyle choices don't start and end with status and consumption. I'll definately be encouraging my daughter to attend uni...if her chosen path demands it. My sister went to uni, my wife did, and one of my close cousins is a lecturer...I forget which uni now. I must hate most of my immediate family. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

"But lifestyle choices don't start and end with status and consumption." Never said they do. But you need money to *live*, and the fact is that wealthier people get to enjoy far more lifestyle freedom, because they don't have to work every single day to get the bread on the table. People who are in jobs that they enjoy are also, undoubtedly, in a better position to feel they're in control of their lifestyle. The vast majority are locked into the system one way or another. If you can maximise your range of choices and your earning potential, that puts you a step closer to actually getting something out of it other than a trickle of money. I've never argued that things are impossible without Uni, or that you're a failure if you don't go. But on the other hand, careers aren't just capitalist nonsense, easily thrown off and disregarded. Am I supposed to believe that all the people stuck in crap, lowpaid jobs, struggling to balance budgets, are actually really pleased about it, because if they weren't, they could go and do whatever they want to at any time? That my grandparents should have said to my dad, "Come on now - what use is a degree? Stay in Hartington and walk five miles to the brick factory every day like your father did, or help out at the shop." And then my dad should have said the same thing to me? Because, hey, if either of us had wanted to do anything else, we could have just gone out and done it any time? Sure. "All that university education and thats the best you can do? My." It's all your pithy comment is worth. I'm sorry that I'm grateful for priveleges other people in the world don't have, Liana. I'm sorry that I don't believe that it was a total waste of time and that I might as well not have bothered. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external) Just to avoid me (and

I'm a court reporter. But it wouldn't matter if I was a gravedigger. The point is that I had a lot of options available to me, and the chance to think seriously about what I wanted to do. I wasn't very good at deciding, and I don't know if I'm there yet, but when I was looking at jobs in London, most of the ones I was interested in specified a degree. Sure, I could have got into an industry I really wanted to be in without my degree, but that would require a singlemindedness and determination I don't possess. There's no particular thing, other than writing, I want to do so much more than other things. I know for a fact, from summers between semesters, that there were few, if any, options for working from my parent's home. I would have had to put up with what was within reach. Hairdresser's assistant? Scanning invoices? There weren't that many options in Norwich either, so I ended up getting the same job as tonnes of other people around there, and that was rubbish. First week I was there, someone asked about my background, learned about my degree, and exclaimed, "What are you doing here? Get a real job!" I don't want to use myself as a case in point because my argument has never been, "I turned out fine - everyone be like me." It's just plain truth that Uni opens up the possibilities for young people. Most have probably done better out of it than me, since I've been too indecisive to really take advantage. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

Come on, BBF. Everyone knows Jack Cade was the leader of a rebellion against the government of Henry VI. I thought he'd been dead for 556 years, tho.

History ahoy! ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

a singlemindedness and determination I don't possess. You could've fooled me Jon. Your steely and dogged refusal to allow another person to have an opinion which differs to your own, despite your constant vows that you are prepared to listen, displays each of those qualities superbly. Liana - been to uni, lived in four different countries.

I dunno.. there is more to life than your job... something a lot of people of my generation forget and then wonder why they are unhappy. All my family live in the same town they grew up in. Amongst them are paintsprayers, builders, shop workers, care workers, road gangers, and secretaries. Some of them love their jobs. Some of them don't. But one thing they do share is a strong sense of place, of home, of family. Their lives consist, mostly, of what they do in their free time, the meals, the card games, the trips to the pub for kareoke, the camping trips in summer, the winter barbeques. For many years I was the 'up and coming' one. I did a degree. I worked in good jobs. I was lonely as hell and nothing has come close to what I'm feeling now that I've moved near to where they live and see them at the weekends. It feels so good to part of something tangible, something that feels like something. Then again, I am enjoying my job now more than anything I've ever done, including writing. And I couldn't be a teacher without a degree... I guess that everyone here is saying it is different for everyone. Just because you don't have a degree and your job seems 'deadend' it doesn't mean you don't have a good life, just has having a degree and and a top job doesn' tmean you have a good life. Some people go to uni and love it, and get lots of it. Some go and don't. Some don't go and get loads out of life. Some don't and don't. Am I missing something here?

oops that should have said 'get lots from it'... and I accidentally posted under Rioja instead of fergal as I was writing a 200 word story.

Didn't live in Grimsby, Tim. Lived in Bucks. Nice if you have a car and a lot of money. Not so good for career/lifestyle options if you don't make your home your castle. Wouldn't have my present job if not for my degree. That's for definite. Not that it's probably any better than anyone else's, but again, the degree just gave me more choice. Even if some of the jobs that claim to require one want me to demonstrate something else. "Your steely and dogged refusal to allow another person to have an opinion which differs to your own, despite your constant vows that you are prepared to listen, displays each of those qualities superbly." I don't have to respect opinions that I think are ill-judged and plain wrong. I can neither 'allow' not 'not allow' them to have that opinion, but I can tell them what I think of it as often as I like - which, strangely, is usually only as often as they tell me what they think of mine. I can be swayed on things. I've admitted I'm wrong plenty of times. There are lots of things I don't claim to have any grounds for an opinion on. But you've got to do a better job than what's gone on here, and it doesn't help when people make up things I haven't said. Ironically, I've also been arguing with my dad recently from the opposite end of this. He takes a far harder line on it than me. I've been telling him a degree isn't everything, and there are plenty of alternatives to what he sees as a successful career path. He sees it as downright ungrateful and selfish not to take advantage of all the opportunities afforded to you and make the stab at financial/career success you possibly can. I don't agree with that. Doesn't mean I agree with this 'Uni makes no difference' crap either. "I dunno.. there is more to life than your job... " But it's easy to forget that when your job is rubbish and tiring and takes up most of your day. Far better to have a good life outside your job *and* a job you enjoy. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

Didn't live in Grimsby, Tim. Lived in Bucks. Nice if you have a car and a lot of money. Not so good for career/lifestyle options if you don't make your home your castle. Wouldn't have my present job if not for my degree. That's for definite. Not that it's probably any better than anyone else's, but again, the degree just gave me more choice. Even if some of the jobs that claim to require one want me to demonstrate something else. "Your steely and dogged refusal to allow another person to have an opinion which differs to your own, despite your constant vows that you are prepared to listen, displays each of those qualities superbly." I don't have to respect opinions that I think are ill-judged and plain wrong. I can neither 'allow' not 'not allow' them to have that opinion, but I can tell them what I think of it as often as I like - which, strangely, is usually only as often as they tell me what they think of mine. I can be swayed on things. I've admitted I'm wrong plenty of times. There are lots of things I don't claim to have any grounds for an opinion on. But you've got to do a better job than what's gone on here, and it doesn't help when people make up things I haven't said. Ironically, I've also been arguing with my dad recently from the opposite end of this. He takes a far harder line on it than me. I've been telling him a degree isn't everything, and there are plenty of alternatives to what he sees as a successful career path. He sees it as downright ungrateful and selfish not to take advantage of all the opportunities afforded to you and make the stab at financial/career success you possibly can. I don't agree with that. Doesn't mean I agree with this 'Uni makes no difference' crap either. "I dunno.. there is more to life than your job... " But it's easy to forget that when your job is rubbish and tiring and takes up most of your day. Far better to have a good life outside your job *and* a job you enjoy. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

I don't think anybody would ever disagree with, 'far better to have a good life otusdie your job *and* a job you enjoy.' I wasn't disagreeing with you anyway Jon. I was just saying that there is more to a life than a job... and lots of this comes down to what sort of attitude one has to life in general. I have friends who are very 'successful' and financially very well off. One in particular is stressed, tired, angry, aggressive, paranoid, obsessed with getting more 'stuff', competetive and unable to make many friends. No thanks very much for me, even though, on paper she is at the top of her field, a wunderkind as a child who has made her name for herself in the legal proffession and who gets mentioned in the papers for her quality work. I guess it all comes down, in the end, to what you qualify as 'success'. My dad didn't go to university. He wished he had. He thought his whole life would have been different if he had, like it was some magic button to happiness, but he was wrong. I wanted to be a weaver - seriously - but he would not let me. He thought university was the be all and end all. I dropped out twice because, frankly, I did not want to study politics and french and become big in Europe. Whatever that meant. In the end I did my degree late in a subject I loved, paying my way by being a chef in a wine bar. I loved it for what I learned, for what the knowledge and the books gave me. Success is an imaginary thing I think. It comes from people sitting around imagining how other people live, imagining them as though they are in a movie with lots of bright colours and wonderful things. Not many people live like that. And I have to say I have issues with the word 'lifestyle'. My favourite lecturer at University once said that the modern world's obsession with the word 'lifestyle' made him sick to his stomach. He said, 'there is life and there is style.. but the two should NEVER be stapled together.' The idea of people swishing around leading a 'lifestyle' rather than a 'life' makes me rather sad.

I guess it depends on what me mean by 'lifestyle'. I took it that we were talking about what kind of pattern of living suits you best. And certainly, there is no magic formula for happiness - I agree with that wholeheartedly. Career success and remuneration doesn't automatically equate to being fulfilled. You've got to find your own way to whatever you consider is the best situation you can put yourself in. This kicked off because I said I think it's grossly unfair to accuse parents who urge their children to do well in school of trying to live out their dreams through their kids. Those parents very often just want the best for their kids and recognise that, in most cases (not all, by any means) paving the path to University will give them the best chance at being able to control the subsequent direction their life goes in. All protestations that followed, to my mind, miss the point. We shouldn't trivialise parents' efforts by asserting that Uni makes no difference. If they want their children to do well, if they feel that they aren't doing as well as they could do, I just don't see how it's selfish or misguided to want to change that, with the possibility in mind of maximising employment opportunities, and thus 'lifestyle' options through higher education. To hold the view that University doesn't help in any way, or is only suitable for certain kinds of people who want certain kinds of success, is pretty insulting to them, and to all parents who have sacrificed a lot to send their children there. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

'You could've fooled me Jon. Your steely and dogged refusal to allow another person to have an opinion which differs to your own, despite your constant vows that you are prepared to listen, displays each of those qualities superbly.' I'm afraid I'm going to have to call bollocks here. Jon *does* listen to other people's opinions, and he demonstrates the fact that he's listened by responding in detail. Just because he doesn't necessarily agree with an opinion, it doesn't follow that he is denying that person's right to a differing viewpoint. These kind of ad hominem snipes demonstrate - from a debating perspective, at least - that Jon has successfully responded to the points raised and that Liana has no other recourse than cheap, inaccurate slights. I don't agree with everything Jon says, but in my humble opinion he's one of the most polite and evenhanded posters.

They may be cheap slights, but they certainly arent inaccurate. The very response that Jon gives, is entirely the point I made - 'I don't have to respect opinions that I think are ill-judged and plain wrong.' Yes, you should respect them, and if you don't agree, then argue with respect for the factthat someone does believe them. You dont. You bang on and on and on and fucking ON until people lose the will to damn well live. The general idea is that you might enlighten someone and change their minds, not encourage them to go fetch a bloody noose. You are endless. ENDLESS in your refusal to just accept that others differ... it's really remarkable. Never thought that I'd be so wholeheartedly in agreement with archergirl, but she (in my opinion) is no less than 100% right. Jon, you are priviliged. I went to uni, and paid my own way whilst working at the same time (I got the same result as you - who'd have guessed, least of all you). Just give yourself a BREATH occasionally.

'But a degree *really* isn't the be-all and end-all of employability. It's a candle on the cake.' First sentence - yes, but Jon never said that. Second sentence - depends on the type of job you want. Try finding a job in medicine, vetenary science or law without a relevant degree. In these situations, a degree is a sine qua non. The term 'degree' covers a vast range of courses, disciplines and institutions, some of which probably constitute a better use of a student's time than others. For my part, doing a BA then an MA has opened up a whole host of job opportunities that I would never have otherwise had - *not* so much because people want to see that I've been educated to the requisite standard (although for most employers this *has* been important) but because the skills and knowledge I've gained have been essential in the performance of my duties. 'To assume that university makes it easier in life to get on the 'success ladder', is flawed. How many well-educated graduates did I pip to the job post, sans degree?' Yes, but that depends entirely on the area you're working in. There are plenty of careers (see above) for which you simply wouldn't be considered.

'But a degree *really* isn't the be-all and end-all of employability. It's a candle on the cake.' First sentence - yes, but Jon never said that. Second sentence - depends on the type of job you want. Try finding a job in medicine, vetenary science or law without a relevant degree. In these situations, a degree is a sine qua non. The term 'degree' covers a vast range of courses, disciplines and institutions, some of which probably constitute a better use of a student's time than others. For my part, doing a BA then an MA has opened up a whole host of job opportunities that I would never have otherwise had - *not* so much because people want to see that I've been educated to the requisite standard (although for most employers this *has* been important) but because the skills and knowledge I've gained have been essential in the performance of my duties. 'To assume that university makes it easier in life to get on the 'success ladder', is flawed. How many well-educated graduates did I pip to the job post, sans degree?' Yes, but that depends entirely on the area you're working in. There are plenty of careers (see above) for which you simply wouldn't be considered.

Andrew Pack doesnt have a degree. Didnt go to uni.

"I don't think Jack is particularly even-handed; what he does is pick out the parts of others' protestations he disagrees with and then refutes them, sentence by sentence" If I responded to the whole post, sentence by sentence, my already gargantuan posts would crash the site. So instead I pick out the points where I believe people's arguments go wrong, and address them. "Talk about a straw man! None of us have said that university doesn't help in any way..." You have! As good as. What you and Yan have effectively been arguing - and this is the woods, rather than the trees - is that a University education is only suitable for certain people who want to pursue certain narrow career paths, or that if it is at all helpful to anyone else, it's not in any decisive way. Since University is incredibly expensive, both in terms of time and money, that's as good as saying it's not worth it at all for most people. No one in their right mind pays £8000 and puts in three years of work for something that's just a vaguely useful. But they do pay it to open a lot of doors in the most straightforward way possible. I have never said, implied or even vaguely hinted at the idea that people who go to University are always successful, or that people who don't are never successful, yet you insist on skewering this idea, rather than the one I've consistently put forward, which is that University makes, or could make, a big difference to a lot of people. David backed me up on this and you straight away suggested that he had somehow misunderstood you, which is rubbish. What you had said was plain: "The university model is one of a myriad paths one can choose, and attain success by. But to imply that most people would do a lot better for themselves had they gone to University, is absurd." As David said, it's not absurd. A lot of people would do a lot better for themselves had they gone to University, by their own standards of success. Not everyone, by any means. But for most of us, it's a very decisive leg-up, an experience that changes the course of our lives for the better. Even Conservatives are aware of this when they argue against government policy of pushing people into Universities. They know how much of a difference it makes, but their argument is that people *shouldn't* all be able to access all these different kinds of jobs, because then there'd be no one left to stack the shelves. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

please could someone precis this argument for me? i don't have the concentration these days ...

Hmm... it's not like Jon is debating with himself. I often feel like he's wasting his time with endless clarifications when there are people predisposed to 'read between the lines' and arrive at their own daffy conclusions about what he's really saying, but at least he makes the effort. I may be wrong on the whole 'certain jobs require specific degrees' schtick, but I always assumed that to be a doctor you needed a medical degree. I didn't need any specific, explicitly quantifiable qualifications to become a writer, but four years at university gave me more of a boost than anything I've ever done. I wouldn't dream at looking down my nose at writers who haven't had a university education - indeed, I'm more likely to cock a snook at someone who *has* been through the system and is still shit. Liana - if Jon's comments affect you in such a disproportionate way then why reply? He's not responsible for your hissy fits.

yeah I know - I didnt reply for ages because i was so astounded really - a combination of not knowing where to start to reply to such narrow mindedness, and the fact that I have better things to occupy myself with., But not today apperently. Either that or I just couldnt stand to see such snotty elitism any longer. You think I've had a hissy fit? Something I have rarely... I'm a grown up. I certainly don't have hissys about people disagreeing with me on internet talk boards... I leave that to Jon. His hissys are *monumental* in stature.

"Yes, you should respect them..." No, I shouldn't. This always comes up. Understanding that people have the right to other opinions doesn't mean that you have to respect those opinions if they're badly thought out. I don't have to respect the views of a racist and I don't have to respect the views that University is a negligible factor in the lives of all but a narrow band of bankers and lawyers. "I went to uni, and paid my own way whilst working at the same time (I got the same result as you - who'd have guessed, least of all you)." Why wouldn't I have guessed that? What's that even got to do with it? Why does this have to come down to an emotional appeal to who's the most priveleged, the most wronged, or faced the toughest odds? If it must come down to that, how many people like you, Liana, might not have had the strength of character to go to Uni and do so well? Just because you've done it and know it's possible doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people like you who likewise didn't had the opportunity when they are young, and find themselves unable to do it now, and wish they could. It strikes me as pretty awful that people could be in that position not because their parents couldn't afford University, but because their parents decided that their reluctance to try at school was a conscious decision to depirve themselves of that opportunity.

Nah... but thats not it, is it? Obviously I'm not saying that you have to respect the views of a racist - that's just absurd. But people here aren't expressing morally evil POV's - just different to yours, and NOT all of them are flawed. I hate hate hate to bring it down to this - because I know you despise it - but you are so young, to be so narrow! I didnt go to uni as a teen, at the time my parents couldnt have afforded it, and more than that - I didnt really have a clue where I wanted to go. So, I travelled. I went to Spain for a long while, then I lived in Holland. I moved to London at 22, then I lived for some years in Birmingham and Wales (god help me). I've spent extensive periods of time in both Belgrade and Prague, and I held down a responsible and extremely well paid job for 10 years - working my way to the top of that, in two. University ISNT the only option. Yes of course for specific careers it is - but are you saying that you cant be a court reporter without a degree? I bet you can you know. I just bet you can. You were suggesting that small towns are crap. That people who live and work in them, 'scrape' a living and have 'bum lives'. Thats not true. I love what Ferg says about wanting different things from life... that's the truth I reckon.

"Andrew Pack doesnt have a degree. Didnt go to uni." More pointless crap! You still don't get it. This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Uni makes a difference! Of course Andrew Pack, or anyone, can succeed without going to Uni. Doesn't change anything I've said. "please could someone precis this argument for me?" No, because apparently no one can summarise or repeat my viewpoints with any degree of accuracy. "Going to University gives you a lot of advantages, choices etc." "So.... you're saying University graduates are better than the rest of us?" "No, that's not what I'm saying." "Sorry, so that is what you're saying?" "No." "Did you just say yes?" "No." "You did it again. You said yes." "No." "Why do you keep saying yes?" **JC kills** ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

"please could someone precis this argument for me?" seconded

I know where you're coming from, jack - plain old common sense, that's where. But the basis of this argument lay in your comment: ' I'm talking about *lifestyle* choice, not success.' There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Nope it was in response to Rokkit's point, to be a lawyer you need a degree. Do keep up Jon. You are the one who said that you are more likely to have a crap life if you dont go to uni - get out of grimsby etc etc ad fucking nauseum. You cant start stamping your foot and saying "thats NOT WHAT I SAID" when you did.

Not really wanting to discuss Andrew Pack behind his back, but the last (only) time I saw him, he was flat broke and hated his job.

Sorry, Liana. I am getting irritated now, and snapping in posts. This is the kind of conversation I should be having in real life, not over a hesitant connection on a forum. But I am not being narrow-minded. I have admitted about a blillion times by now that of course there are other ways of doing things, and that University isn't for everyone. But as I keep saying, the vast majority of people live inside the system, and don't go out travelling or career-jumping. They will settle for steady work, even if it's not ideal, and make do as best they can with that. Later on, family commitments will prevent them from taking risks - you can't always afford to take a pay cut, but you may have to if you want to switch career. University, for a young person not yet going into employment, opens up so many more possibilities that most people simply do not imagine, starting at home and trying to work out what to do next. "You were suggesting that small towns are crap." No. They're crap for people who want to do anything other than the small range of starter jobs on offer. I'm sure they're great once you're in the industry you want to be in and are prepared to commute. Nice and quiet. They're also, generally, crap for leisure activities, which is why you get kids hanging around on street corners with nothing much to do, but that's another matter. "That people who live and work in them, 'scrape' a living and have 'bum lives'." Lots of people do scrape a living and get bum deals out of work. Are you denying this? You think that people living in council estates have it easy? You think they're there because they've chosen that life above all others? I'm sorry, but it seems all you and the others are saying is that University makes no difference to anyone except a few ambitious types, and that everyone else will sort themselves out somehow anyway. *Someone* does all these crap jobs, and for you guys, it's obviously those who are incapable of doing anything better, rather than those who're locked into them. "Yes of course for specific careers it is - but are you saying that you cant be a court reporter without a degree? I bet you can you know. I just bet you can." Maybe, but (and again, repeating myself for the umpteenth time) if you don't really know what you want to do, it takes a hell of a lot more work to get into some of these industries, work that you might not be prepared to put in if you're not sure about it. A degree is an easy way to drop straight in, and try it out for a while. I don't know why it works that way, but it does. People who do not have a very specific ambition will not have the tenacity and willpower to break into a career they might find more enjoyable. This is true, to an extent, even if you *do* have a degree - there are plenty of areas where you just can't compete because the jobs go to people who've known they've wanted to do this since they were in their teens. I'm guessing you've put up another reply, in the time it's taken to respond to this, that takes me up on my more narked off post. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

Ah Dan... that was while he was in London. He's in Birmingham now, back on the top of the social care law side and loving every minute of it. On his way over to see us soon. London you see... not the be all and end all. (Sorry, couldnt resist) Jon, dont get so worked up. I know, I'm a fair one to talk, but it's not healthy. You cant keep going on and on like this. Use those energies for good. You dont want to talk to me about council estates... you really dont.

'You are the one who said that you are more likely to have a crap life if you dont go to uni...' Citing individual examples doesn't negate that assertion, which is one of probability. You can't demonstrate that any of these people who didn't go to uni and yet feel they've done all right wouldn't have done better or had a wider range of opportunities if they had got a degree. Perhaps this isn't reaching much of a conclusion because neither side has any means of proving or disproving their position, just anecdotal evidence. Statistically, uni graduates earn more on average than non-graduates - however, as Yan points out, this doesn't equate directly to greater choice (although having money allows more choice in certain areas) nor does it guarantee a better quality of life. As far as I'm concerned, uni was right *for me* and I would strongly encourage others to attend. However, I wouldn't argue that those who don't go are necessarily less intelligent, cultured or happy, nor would I argue that someone who didn't attend is necessarily disadvantaged - there's no generic 'graduate' to compare against a generic 'non-graduate', just statistics, which merely demonstrate trends.

The problem I had is that your choice to attend uni was a *lifestyle* choice you made at the time. You may have been aware that that particular lifestyle choice had the benefit of potentially increasing your future lifestyle choices also. But at the same time many other people were making similar *lifestyle* choices based on their circumstances and they also either foresaw a future benefit or maybe they just made a choice because it was harmonious with their moment-moment lifestyle and, due to their character and worldview, that choice was in keeping with the lifestyle they'd envisaged. Simple, but you claimed that your lifestyle choice at that time was far superior to anybody elses because it gave you the added benefit of making certain firm predictions about your future prospects. Not all people live that way. Many do but make alternative lifestyle choices based on their wants and needs. If we're not talking about success then the only benefit you can claim is that the probability of you having a future advantage regards your choices is higher then others. fair enough...for your wants and needs only. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

On the University debate. A degree in itself will open doors that may not otherwise be open. The thing is, there are many doors that don't require it, so not having the degree isn't really going to hinder somebody searching for professional satisfaction. I've seen many a graduate get professionally pigeon-holed by that degree and lose some flexibility in determining their career path. If you want to be a doctor or lawyer or corporate execuitve, that degree is pretty much required. If you want to make a good living outside of those realms, don't worry about it. I know more people without degrees making a ton of money, much more than most lawyers and doctors I've known. I'd reason that the typical university graduate has a higher IQ (not as a result of attending the university) and that a person's IQ is a greater determinant of earnings than a degree. Smarter people do well, eduacation isn't intelligence, it is education...it helps but doesn't make up for the shortcoming of lacking intelligence to begin with. Stupid people generally don't do well in a university. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/(link is external)

OK, yan, I see where you're coming from but, no, that wasn't what I was trying to say. I just think as many people should have the *opportunity* of University as possible, so I sympathise with parents who struggle against their children's natural idleness and rebelliousness to put them in that situation. I would even sympathise with parents who argue against their kids if they decide Uni isn't for them, because it *may* be that they're making that decision under misconceptions. RD: it could be completely different in the US. I've no idea. I've heard, numerous times, that degrees from American Universities are simply not considered as good as degrees from English Universities. Don't know how well that holds up. But even then, you just can't judge it from the people you know. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

Jon, It would depend on the university. The best US colleges are as good or better than any university in the UK or world for that matter, and there are probably more to choose from. Now, if you're talking about a typical "state" school, they don't offer anything significantly different from one another and are mostly education mills. I can judge from people I know of. I've worked professionally as a military person, engineer, publisher and writer for over 35 years. I was at one time a professional student. I never obtained a degree. I've known thousands of college graduates and many more non-graduates, working in these and many other professions. I've probably interviewed several hundred people over the years, with and without degrees and hired dozens for many different positions. I'm not interested in conducting a scientific study, because I know what the truth is. If you need a scientific study, go read The Bell Curve. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/(link is external)

[[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com(link is external) - latest... Addendum to "Disappearing Robots")

"It's not your concrete arguments that are causing the debate; it's the assumptions you seem to be making in forming those arguments." Well, it's people's misguided assumptions of my assumptions. Maybe if I put it this way: I don't think someone who chooses not to go to University is necessarily throwing away a better life. But for the majority of things you might decide you want to do, in terms of careers and the accompanying lifestyles, will be made more attainable through University, so if you have no idea what you want to do yet, Uni is your best bet. People who don't have that option, if they lack some guiding ambition, are in serious danger of getting tied down to something they do out of necessity, rather than choice. You need to have an idea of what you *want* to get away from what you *don't want*. I think a lot of people go through life never really knowing what the former is. They know they want to go on holiday and retire, but they have no idea what other things they could have done that they might have found more rewarding. Uni gives you a lot of time and support in trying to work out what that is. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

Err... AG, I think sometimes you read between the lines in people's posts the same way schizophrenics read between the lines in the Book of Revelations and conclude the Eschaton is coming Monday week in a hail of Eccles cakes. This thread has become a bit of a mess of people talking at cross purposes and so I think it might be time to bow out. I certainly don't doubt the intelligence of its many contributors. Here's to future life choices and the great things that may come of them. I daresay one day somebody will write a fascinating pHD thesis on this subject. ^_^

"I had no fucking idea what I wanted to do when I was seventeen and tried Uni the first time. It was an unmitigated disaster; I got two Fails and two Withdrawals." I said 'best bet', not guarantee. I'm sure unmitigated disasters are in the minimum. I have friends who dropped out, one who retook the first year but still dropped out, and yet they don't describe it as a disaster - it just didn't work out as well as it could have. Travel is fine, imo. People recommend that anyway. Or doing a gap year work placement. But two years is probably going too far, because it's hard to go back into education once you've started employment. People I know who've done that have described the experience as very weird, and seemingly 'wrong' at first. In the end though, a delay of one to two years doesn't change the fact that your A Levels will be a factor in what Uni places you can grab, so again, the better ones you have, the more choices are available. "And, let's face it, having some actual *work* experience (and not just a Connexions placement at 16, I mean) plus a degree is FAR more likely to land you a good job in your early twenties, than just having a degree." That's absolutely true. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants(link is external) * Fuselit(link is external) * The Prowl Log(link is external) * Woe's Woe(link is external)

I am a bit lost in this debate as well. I went into Biomedical publishing after a Biological science degree and the degree was required even though I could have done the job without the degree. However I probably wouldn't have had the passion for the journals and books we published that stems from the understanding of the subject matter. I then moved into a different area of publishing, a job secured due to my experience in the industry rather than my degree, but my boss had no degree, he worked his way up from the postroom! I don't think I'm adding anything useful to the discussion here, just musing. BTW, I live on a council estate and yes, I chose to live there. I can afford to rent in the private sector, but why pay sky-high rent or an astronomical mortage for a shoebox when I get a generously sized one-bedroom house for far less money? Also my neighbours far from being the sterotypical wife-beaters, whores and crack addicts seem to be really nice folk. I've had more 'good mornings' in the week I've lived there than I did in the whole five years in the flat I owned in London. It is a council estate, it has its problems, but it has a real sense of community. Ok, given EVERY 'choice' I might prefer a two-up/two-down in Surrey but with today's houseprices, not even my degree and successful career in publishing can buy that anyway. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net(link is external)

"...schizophrenics read between the lines in the Book of Revelations and conclude the Eschaton is coming Monday week in a hail of Eccles cakes..." You mean it isn't? Damn, I like eccles cakes... :-/ [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com(link is external) - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

Jude>"...sterotypical wife-beaters, whores and crack addicts.." Now...it occurs to me anyone married to a whore or crack addict may be well motivated to become a "wife-beater" Are the three intertwined in some way? Just a thought. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/(link is external)