Wendy Cope

i'd like to recommend rilke "you who never arrived" and elizabeth barrett browning's "sonnets of the portuguese" ... (hmmmm i wish i could spell ...) the above are immediate, breathtaking and non poncey ... and i have to agree that carol ann duffy's valentine is very very good

re you who never arrived thank you

Yes, ta much, Ebony. Great stuff. You know his mother wanted a girl, that's where the 'Maria' comes from. Maybe that's where my mate Brian gets the idea that 'all poets are poofs'? He's from Glasgow and I'm not (poof, Glaswegian). (poet?)

eddie ... have you read any of rilke's letters to a young artist?

Is anyone familiar with the work of Ruth Padel? I recently picked up a book of hers called "Rembrandt would have loved you" which is excellent in a non poncy manner. She won the national poetry award in 96 (so it says in the front of the book) which can often be offputting for me, but I'm glad to say I was hugely impressed. Andrew, I picked the book up at the marvellous Readers Rest in Lincoln, (this establishment is wholly responsible for my overdraft). I've uncovered some real gems there. If anyone else has some recommendations re: Ruth Padel, I'd be chuffed.

You can find a dozen or so of her poems at nth-dimension.co.uk, and yes they are (mostly) written in the best poetic style, which up until now I didn't have a name for, so non-poncy it is. If you like her relationship ones like Bloody Men and Two Cures for Love (is that the right title?), you might also like Valentine by Carol Ann Duffy. If you don't know it already, it's on the same website - it is perhaps ever so slightly poncy, although I prefer to think of it as being figurative without being vague.

IFB No.

IFB Is that last one the shortest reply on the site? Do I get lollipop? Ivory, I haven't read the letters but I will look out for them. However, I've got a book which quotes from 'one of Rilke's late letters' (he should have sent them first class, then). Anyway, Rilke wrote: 'each of us experiences only one conflict in life, which constantly reappears under a different guise'. Sounds a bit familiar, though I'd say two or three, myself

Thanks - I checked Valentine out and it was ace (as is the site - I must remember to add a link to it!) I like poets (and writers in general) who write honestly about relationships - too many people either go down the 'love is amazing and relationships are perfect so lets buy a kitten to cuddle' route or the 'my boyfriend/girlfriend left me so all men/women are scum and all relationships are futile' route. I don't think relationships are ever black and white - only shades of grey - so both types are missing the mark. Possibly the best love poem of all time (IMHO!) is 'To His Coy Mistress' by Andrew Marvell. Even though he wrote it in the dim and distant past - the 'olden days' is about as historically accurate as I can be cos I've got a rubbish memory for dates :-) - it's still deeply pertinent. Basically, he was asking for a shag in flowery language! If you like Wendy Cope and Carol Ann Duffy, other similar 'non-poncy' poets include Lynn Peters, Fiona Pitt Kethley and David Shannon (all discovered through one of the women's glossy mags about 5 years ago when they used to run poetry - think it was Cosmopolitan. How come no-one does this any more?)

I tried to find the recommended non-poncy poets on the web, but I'm afraid I couldn't. But I found and enjoyed Andrew Marvell's poem, so thank you. He's a bit of a tinker, isn't he? I'm not sure that I entirely agree with your views about writing about relationships. It's true that honesty is essential, but sometimes I can think with total honesty, "my girfriend's left me and all women are scum"! (Quite often as it happens, but that's another story...) I do think that that sort of writing, whether in novels, poems or songs, can capture how you feel at a particular time. The difficulty which I think you're getting at, is that it's well-trod and difficult to be original about it. But it can be very inspirational - I am so glad that Bob Dylan's wife divorced him and inspired him to write the Blood on the Tracks album!

Robert Try Liz Lochhead, and Sharon Olds....neither are poncy. Wonderful!! Carol Ann Duffy is one of my favourites, and Wendy Cope makes me laugh out loud. For non-poncy love poetry, Brian Patten always does it for me.....*sigh* Captures sensation without over using tired old formulas. There one of his called "Dressed" (l believe, my book is upstairs) which is so provocative. Regards Liana

I seem to be missing something here, would you all be so kind as to tell me what 'poncy' is supposed to indicate?

poncey or poncy = snobby, ostentatious poncing = mincing

And there's me thinking a ponce is someone who lives off the immoral earnings of a prostitute. My, my what are people doing to the English language? But why not say snobby or ostentatious? And another thing, there's too much pretentious crap being posted, not to mention the people who think it's high art to write pornography and pass it off as meaningful! Right, that's it, where's my damned soapbox, and where's that 'to rhyme or not to rhyme' discussion!!!

Liana, Thank you for the suggestions. I'm not fantastically well-read when it comes to poets, because I just can't find much stuff that I like (I bought The Nation's 100 Favourite Poems and hated 95 of them), so yours and Emily's recommendations are very welcome.

I'm sorry at my abuse of the English language - you are indeed correct - think I picked up this use of the word 'poncy' in London. I don't quite mean snobby or ostentatious - maybe pretentious is more what I mean. Someone I know (won't name them cos they're on this forum and might object) describes it very well as the 'A waterfall, a waterfall...' (whilst desperately clutching fevered brow and gesturing at some imagined waterfall) school of poetry BTW, Robert, how anyone with your fantastic taste in literature and music could possibly be in the "my girfriend's left me and all women are scum"! position on a regular basis is beyond me! (by the way, if you haven't already, try Neil Gaiman's book 'Smoke and Mirrors' - think you'll like it - it's the best short story/poetry collection I've ever read. Very goth and dark but given that you like Morrissey, I can't see you objecting to a bit of dark writing. Gaiman does a FANTASTIC re-writing of Snow White called 'Snow, Glass, Mirrors' that will change your perception of the story forever. It also contains 'The Virus' which I named in the other thread as my favourite short story, then re-read and realised was actually a poem. In his intro to the book, he breaks down where each story/poem was inspired, which is kind of interesting) Oh, and Mississippi, the to rhyme or not to rhyme discussion is in the 'music and poetry' thread in this forum (if this is your real name as you said in the other thread, I empathise - you must have had as hard a time as I did when you were a kid tring to spell your name!) Also, I'm well impressed at the amount of admirers you're picking up in this forum - I'm seriously thinking about suggesting to the powers that be that we set up a dating agency, if only for them ;-) Cheers Em

My dear Emily, what I said was that Mississippi IS a real name, I didn't say it was MY real name, that's actually Liana! OK, that's a lie it's really George, I don't want to scare off any of those admirers do I, this the most I've had in my life, and I'm open to offers.

robert ... bought the nations 100 poems and hated 95 of them ... *hooting with laughter* i expect it is your proximity to hinckley that is the problem ...

why oh why has nobody mentioned pam ayres?

Pam Ayres and Wendy Cope in the same discussion thread - wash your mouth out with soap and water (although I did like her when I was little - at about the same time as I thought prawn cocktail was the height of sophistication)

pam ayres was my major formative influence ...

I can't possibly believe that - your stuff rocks (particularly love 'Eating Orange' and 'Nine Months On' made my eyes well up - it's beautiful) Then again, given I loved her when I was six, 'spose she was one of my formative influences too :-)

oooooh thank you emily ... but i cannot forget my humble poetic roots *rueful & ironic tone* ... please bear in mind that the readers digest was and still is one of my compulsive reads ...

You mean to tell me that prawn cocktail isn't the height of sophistication??? You wait 'till my friends at the Beefeater hear this one. I'll tell then between the well done steaks and the profiteroles.

mmm profiteroles

i bought wendy cope's anthology "serious concerns" recently - anyone who still doesn't know her stuff should read it! the poems are immediate, but original and full of thought and wit; kind of stuff that i think would appeal to even those who do not normally enjoy poetry.