Tony Parsons vs Nick Hornby

Ralph my stuff is poetry and my penname is stevo I have 2 abc sets, let me know ehat you think s

ok i just might be ready to try and articulate what i felt about that latest Nick Hornby novel "How To Be Good" ... to put my relationship with N. H. in context ... it was unhappy through books about music and sport obsessed blokes (being married to one at the time it was all too close to home) ... HOWEVER .. i DID enjoy ... About A Boy ... not immensely but enough ... i found the voice authentic ... i liked the story ... perhaps i could relate to it as a single mother trying to forge relationships ... who knows ... so i looked forward to How To Be Good ... but very soon into the book i realised that i felt it was all surface ... it felt like someone telling someone's story second hand ... it didn't convince ... the voice was not authentic ... i didn't give two hoots about any of the characters ... (the only one i was slightly convinced by was the arsey son Tom) ... the subject matter made me think ... love, materialism, what we need (echoed on another thread here) ... and how while it is simple to spout all the right on nonsense about equality and rights and so on it is so seldom that we actually DO anything about anything ... but the whole way through i was aware that this was someone telling me something ... the best reads for me are when i am unaware of the devices of the storytelling ... and the main crisis of the book - where the husband begins to question himself - is never fully realised ... that was very disappointing and lost opportunity to really examine him as a character ... and the end ... well ... a complete anti climax ... the book took precise aim at the educated affluent middle class armchair leftie (that's me folks) ... and missed ...

Sir/Madam I think one of the points of 'How To Be Good' was to encourage the reader not to warm to the charecters. We are meant to judge them harshley and then judge ourselves. This is not a pleasent book, its nasty and real and tells us what a crappy, sundried tomato, cheesse eating, Chardonnay drinking, Jamie Oliver, Islington dreaming bunch of bastards we are. The ending is brilliantly downbeat and honest. Its a real departure for Hornby and to my mind a real truimph. Happy Good Ralph

How To Be Good didn’t work so well, I thought, because its themes were attached to a plot that I found too unlikely, and I couldn’t sympathise sufficiently with characters that found themselves in what I thought was a rather implausible situation during the second half of the book...I was left feeling that the author had been hampered trying to explore a big subject About A Boy, on the other hand, I thought was the perfect novel of its type...all of the main players in the story communicated with me...it said something about the idea of family...i wanted to read it again when i'd finished

dear ralph ... i do believe that it would be easier to judge the characters (and ourselves) more harshly if they were more convincing ... brecht he is not ... i think it a lazy book ... and i think he got fed up at the end and finished it quick ... a departure it may be ... but he left from the wrong platform and got stuck in a siding somewhere ... yours I. Fishbone (Ms.)

dear Mr. Ralph, we must agree to differ on the ending then ... i do not think i was wanting a "tidy" ending though ... that is not what i meant ... and is your assertion that we "cannot be good" defeatist? ... don't you agree that we can be (and might try to be) as "good" as we can be? do you try to treat people well? ... to respect them? ... to be honest? ... i do ... naturally i fail but i am glad that i try ... sweeping statements about guilt ridden nations are not helpful ... are you saying that you are guilt ridden? do you agree with the book's suggestion that we should make amends for our past crimes? ... the device in the book of phoning up and apologising to people the characters had been cruel to in the past was a failure ... does that mean we accept ourselves as guilty? ... or do you think we can make amends by altering our present behaviour? undoubtedly i would feel different if i read the book again ... it is always possible to see different things in a book on subsequent readings ... i don't imagine i WILL read it again ... there is little enough time to read the books that are worth reading ... best wishes iFB

Coo, Fish, that told 'im, didn't it?

Dear Fishbone No not at all. We all have diffrent levals of goodness. But the book targetted the new Labour Liberals who believe that paying a few quid out of their wages once a month relieves them of any guilt. As a nation we still believe that we are supeior than most, I do not think that is a sweeping generalisation. To deny it adds to our complex. Yes, I do try and treat people fairly, most of us do. Its convienient and thats a fact. Perhaps we should go for a coffee (latte for you I think) and sort this out because i fell you are barkink up the wrong tree and totally misunderstood the book. Ralph

And as for you you little minx...... Ralph

minx? minx? the plural of mink is mink! tchah!

It is not entirely clear as to who/whom the mink's/minx is/are...

ralph ... sweetie ... if it is a discussion about something you want then i am happy to engage ... if you want to trade insults please find another playmate ... there are plenty of them on the site ... *blows kiss*

Oh, dear... Well, as much as I know about poetry (which ain't a lot), I have to say I think the Fish is not only 'ok', but pretty damn good...

Is the plural of mink, mink? And if so, who cares except maybe another mink (or, indeed other minx, minks, minkes etc.,) While we're on the plural of animals I'm reminded of two old 'jokes' and a rather neat question. A schoolteacher wants to give a natural history talk to the kiddies in his class and thinks he'll enliven it with a few exhibits. so he writes to the Curator of Dudley zoo: Please send me two mongeese. He reads this and thinks 'No', scratches it out and re-writes it; Please send me two mongooses. He reads it and thinks 'Crap', draws a big heavy line through it and re-writes; Please send me two mongoose Still unhappy, he has one more try; Please send me two mongi. Now he's totally confused so he gets a completely new, blank sheet of paper and writes: Please send me a mongoose. PS. Please send me another one. Said the mother tern to the baby tern Would you like a baby brother? Said the baby tern to the mother tern One good tern deserves another. Question: Did Noah take two ducks on the Ark?

Now I don't want this should scare ya but . . . (seeing as it's yo, Liana, thought I'd better start with a 'song' lyric) technically I could be your Dad if you are any age between say 0 and 36. In any event I am a Dad twice over (at least to my knowledge) so that gives me full and unfettered licence to tell as many Dad-type jokes as I like. And I do like. Joey Dee and The Starlighters, hey? You wouldn't be that girl from The Black Horse car park would you? If so, how was it for you?

I'm 36!!! I'm 36!!! I'm shouting, because I'm savouring the moment. In ten days, I'll be 37. *gloom*

Parsons is so up his own arse. He was bad enough on Late Review with his effing black ties but on Front Row last month he was banging on comparing his beery lad-fiction to Melville and Dickens. What a tw*t. love the mook

i've never been inclined to read anything by tony parsons, precisely because he is always so damn irritating on late review! i've read all of nick hornby, i think, but the only novel of his that i REALLY enjoyed is About A Boy

So, if my maths are correct - and they probably ain't - you were born on 9th Sept. 1964, Liana in which case I could just about be your Dad but only if you Mom was the girl I used to live next door to. She only 'did it' with me anyway because I had a shinier racing bike than the other lads in the street. It's a terrible thing to be used and then cast aside just as soon as your so-called mate gets a brand new 18-gear Raleigh Speedster. Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday dear Liana HappyBirthday to you I'll do it now 'cos in ten days I'll have forgotten. You can't blame me - I'm a bloke, we're programmed to forget birthdays etc. Also this is the only song I know with 'Liana' in the lyric. I bet you know some others though. Go on, enlighten me.

Toninho Horta, the album; Serenade Songs has a track called "Liana" As there is also a track called "soccer ball" I am not too thrilled.

surely you liked High Fidelity. As an inveterate list maker I loved it. ste

Why does there have to be a battle between these two ? .......buy the books or not. .......... personally I like both although I did try reading a very old Parson's novel about the music industry and it was pure shite......and ralph malphy...nice try and getting more hits on your posting...i didn't bite......

Dear All Thank you for the replies. Two things. 1. Hornby is one of the greatest writers around at the moment. I dont know how we will all feel in maybe ten years time. 'How to be Good' to my mind is his best yet and will gain a new audiance as well as the old. 2. When I read Man & Boy I felt a bit cheated. It was almost a Mills & Boon version of a Hornby book. 3. (I know I said that there was only two points) We all want as many hits of our work on this site as possible. Dont be so babyish. Ta Ta Ralph

Unbelievable. I'm gonna see if I can get it. Can't pass on an album which includes a song called 'soccer ball.' What is it with all you girls. Footie is OK you know. If this helps J. B. Priestley I think it was who said 'football is much more than a game. It is Art, Life and Conflict.' My sentiments entirely, JB. now all we have to is convince the girls.

Unbelievable. I'm gonna see if I can get it. Can't pass on an album which includes a song called 'soccer ball.' What is it with all you girls. Footie is OK you know. If this helps J. B. Priestley I think it was who said 'football is much more than a game. It is Art, Life and Conflict.' My sentiments entirely, JB. now all we have to is convince the girls.

i did quite like High Fidelity, stevie, but not enough to ever want to read it again. i enjoyed the film more, especially that rendition of Let's Get It On...yum i was a bit disappointed by How to Be Good - up until that i thought nick hornby was getting better with each novel, and i was expecting something even more wonderful than About A Boy

Never read any Tony Parsons, and if he would prefer to be Oasis than Blur, that rather seals the deal for me. I didn't read How to Be Good, largely because About a Boy was such a disappointment. Hornby seemed to be getting somewhere with getting beneath the surface of men and then backed off completely with a book that didn't really do anything. And the bonding over Kurt Cobain's death was just frightful. Maybe the problem was that Hornby started saying things that nobody else was saying and then a bunch of other people started saying the same things, louder and in a less appealing way. So, I can understand why he had to change tack and I fully expect him to deliver something really impressive in years to come.

Excuse me for getting back on my Nick Hornby hobby horse but what has he ever said that has not been said before? That would be permissible if only what he had said about the commonplace, he had said in an original way. Small and petty themes treated in small and petty ways using small and petty language. Having said that I must admit I liked Fever Pitch but that's just because I'm a total, out-and-out football nut. As for him being one of the greatest writers around just now, what an insult to Will Self, Umberto Eco or even, dare I say it Louis de Bernieres. Ralph gave the game away when he said 'how will we feel in ten years time?' That ain't something you're likely to say about Salinger, Melville or Hemingway, is it. Now that's what I call great. By the way, Ralph the answer to your question is 'We won't feel anything at all because we'll have forgotten all about Nick Hornby. Never even read any Tony Parsons and now I know he's so like Hornby I don't think I'll bother.

John That is Hornby's greatest gift, The way he can make small things mammoth. The small things amount to the large things, thus, a true reflection of the life that certain people live. As for Salinger (Schoolboy wank material) Will Self (Wants to be Martin Amis) De Berniers (Steinbeck without the warmth and an out and out Liar) Go on, buy 'How To Be Good' If you don't like it I'll give you your money back. Cheers Ralph

That would be OK if he actually had done what you claim but I'm afraid to say I reckon he's taken the small things and made them smaller or, at least, left them just as small. Salinger: I agree, wrote in a kind of adolescent time -warp but at least he did it really well. I first read 'Catcher' when I was sixteen and I admit it seems to get worse every time I read it. Of course, its not the book getting worse, it's just me getting older. Did any sixteen year-old male ever read 'Catcher' and not feel just like Holden Caulfield. Or if they did, where the bloody hell had they left their soul. Maybe William Hague and we all know what he did with his 'teen years - spent them sucking up to Thatcher and training to be Prime minister. If he ever drank fourteen pints then I'm Oliver Reed re-incarnate. Do you think Hornby will ever have anything like the impact Salinger did. When answering, remeber Catcher was written 40+ years ago. At least if Mark Chapman had been carrying a copy of 'High Fidelity' he might just have asked John Lennon for an autograph, a vinyl copy of Sergeant Pepper's and left it at that. Will Self v. Martin Amis; I've heard this one before but never having read any Amis (I didn't like his Dad, therefore the sins of the father have been visited on the son, unfair I know) I'm not qualified to comment. What I will say though is Will Self makes me laugh when he's on tellie whereas Martin Amis makes me switch off. De Bernieres; personally I would never have mentioned him in the same breathe as Steinbeck but I've no problem with him being a liar seeing as how his little lies give birth to so many big truths. I have to disagree about him having no warmth. As it happens I was browsing 'How To Be Good' in my local Waterstones just this lunchtime and it initially struck me as being more of the same but I'm going to take your advice, buy and read. I know loads of people like Nick Hornby and believe me I'm no critic. It's just the way he comes across to me. Trying to find some common ground with you mate so how do you feel about Joseph Heller, Saul Bellow, Kurt Vonnegut and Jack Kerouac.

Hi thicko here, Who are these Tony Parsons and Nick Hornby blokes????????? AJ

It's like this here Thicko, Parsons is that hack that rights in the Mirror and thinks he's something really special (I didn't know crap came in special packages) and Hornby is the guy who used to make train sets for grown-up kids years ago, his partner in that venture was a relative of the US president, a guy called Dublo Bush. OK, now you know as much as everybody else!

John Thanks for the reply. Kerouac is one of me all time faves. I am going to San Franciscoi n a couple of week as a sort of pilgrimage. His works still makes me cry. I love On The Road, Big Sur and The Dharma Bums. One of his late books, 'Satori In Paris' is also a winner. 'Henderson The Rain King' is the only Bellow that I have read, it made me feel old. What are your thoughts on Colin McClinnes? Buy that book man and keep me informed. Ralph

Ralph, I'm gonna buy the book just as soon as wife gets over the massive Waterstones bill from last month. This could take some time. Well, we've found the common ground and it's Kerouac. Being abit of a (failed) Buddhist I love all that 'Dharma/Satori' stuff. The only one of his I didn't like was Dr. Sax but I'm going to go back and try again. As for Henderson The Rain King - I like v. much. It helped teach me not to 'live in my head' quite so much. The only thought I've got on Colin McInnes is now I'm going to have to add him to my list of people to read as I never have so far. What kind of stuff does he write about? John

Don't you think we're all getting a bit excited about these Hornby/Parsons questions. What about the inestimable John Lanchester, or fabulous Beryl Bainbridge, Annie Proulx, Richard Ford or Barry Unsworth. There are plenty of excellent living novelists who are more than making their mark in the history of writing, do we really need to argue about which of two balding bloky novelists is the least annoying? read 'The Debt to Pleasure' by Lanchester and simply lose your lunch with glee. steffie

uh-oh i *tried* to read the debt to pleasure... i'll try again... *descends at realisation that he may be the target market for bloky novelists*

Johm Colin McClinnes wrote a supurb London trilogy in the late 1950s. Absolute Beginners, Mr Love and Justice and City of Spades. John Arnot (whom I like a great deal) owes a large debt to him. They made a movie of Absolute Beginners in the 1980s Tony Parsons talked it up a great deal at the time.(we should have known then). It was truly dreadful and broke my heart because I was looking forward to it so much. Life is hard. Keep reading and din't make youself banlrupt. Ralph

have only read About A Boy, by Hornby, and nothing except Parsons interviews, where he came accross as a bit smug so not inspiring me to read his work. I liked About A Boy.Laughed aloud in the canteen (everyone stared at me)and was ten minutes late clocking back in. Wasn't sure about the ending, but the more I think about it,the better it seems. All the meaning is collected in the end of the book, about how someone who appears at first to be a liberal person is infact the most bigotted in the book. I wanted it to have a happy ending, and thought at first it was a superficial, fairy tale happy ending, then thought maybe it was a gritty, real life ending. Maybe Hornby is smug in interviews, too, haven't read any, but I think I'll read another of his books

All in all I think Stef is right. I knew there was something else that bothered me about Nick H and Stef has, quite literally, hit it on the head. It's this. Nick's head is far too round to be a serious writer. In fact his head is so round I doubt if even that Giotto bloke (you know, the one who drew the perfect circle for the Pope just to show off) could have drawn it. The only person I can think of with a rounder head is Phil Mitchell off Eastenders. Every one knows all decent writers are long, boney, neurotic types with faces as long as proverbial fiddles. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule. Gabriel Garcia Marquez to name but three. This is absolutely my last word on the whole Hornby v. Parsons can of worms. After all, this is not a football match is it?

Seph Umm. Why do you call Nick Hornby blokey? You seem to think that to be a relevent writer you have to adopta fey attitude. What are you intrested in? The image of the writer or the writing itself. Writing isn't about being Boho, its about talent. Because someone is bald, supports Arsenal and can reel off the complete B-Sides of the Stax Records back catolouge, does not make them blokey or one dimensional. Now, go and put your smoking jacket on, fop your hair over your ever so pale skin, light a role up and return to your manual typewriter (with the dodgy G), write a few lines of The Great English Novel, while your ginger tabby cat (Chaucer) wraps himself around your feet, give up after seventeen minutes, make a cup of tea and then put the latest Radiohead album on. Wake Up Ralph Dartford

I have been told I've got attitude. It was when I kicked my department manager a bit too hard on the shin. Or it might have been an attitude problem...

Dear Ralph Errata: My cat is called Harry, not Chaucer I write on a coal-fired word-processor I have a light, even tan, so am not pale I never touch nicotine, my dear. The very thought of roll-ups, so phallic and yet so pathetic, like chipolatas. ps, no need to get so bally nettled. Elswhere on the discussions other writers are massaging your ego no end, so pass on the love, dear, pass on the love and get off your high horse, you quixotic chuckle. There is no need for you to pontificate to the rest of us or beseech us to 'wake up'. I am wide awake my dear boy. Ah, curses, in my agitation I have spilt Chartreuse down my smoking jacket. The bill is yours old thing. PPS I love Nick Hornby. High Fidelity is one of my favourite novels. I have rarely identified with a central character like I did with Rob so just wring out your knickers and stop insulting the rest of us, tcah!

Steph Nice one. I bet you are a huge 'Withnail and I' fan as well. i was not insulting you at all. it just seemed that you were playing to type and you left yourself wide open. Sorry if I offended. Ralph

Non meant, non taken I had had a roughish morning. It is a terrible moment in a young man's life when he awakes and says, 'I shall never play "the Dane".' More meat? stef ps now that we are pals I shall go and read some of your suff Ralph (or is it Rayf?) cheers

Non meant, non taken I had had a roughish morning. It is a terrible moment in a young man's life when he awakes and says, 'I shall never play "the Dane".' More meat? stef ps now that we are pals I shall go and read some of your stuff Ralph (or is it Rayf?) cheers