Maybe we should all start affairs with the European Sales Director; he seems to be doing something wonderful for you, jude, if he helps you ignore all the cobblers that goes on here! Do you have his number (or, um, a name?)
I'm not painting Jasper as a novelty as I know some people have received a lot of grief from him, although why anyone would take it as anything but guff and bluster is beyond me. The question I ask myself, however, is -why- they had trouble, when many other people didn't. This isn't to apportion blame; I'm just wondering about the dynamics and how they did/n't differ. Or was it random?
Jude, gimme some of that dissociative identity stuff, please? I'm with span: this is getting buh buh buh boringggg.
"Oh...I'm a tosser.....what, because I won't subscribe to the little hate-fests that go on here?"
Actually, it's because you do, and then try to imply you're ten miles above them. I'm not forgetting the time you produced your daughter on a thread in order to try and prove a point about how you don't take it seriously or something. ('My daughter looked at this thread and we laughed about it together, being oh-so wry and haughty and uninvolved.') You have to admit that was pretty dire.
And please, look up scapegoat. You don't seem to understand what it means. Scapegoating someone is blaming them for the problems afflicting a whole community. No one is blaming Jasper for cherry arguments, or misbehaving editors, or general rancour, or any of the other things that seem to be causing a stir at the moment. The only thing we're blaming him for is his own posts, which are mostly belittling, snidey slices of unintelligible babble directed at everyone else on the thread. He *can* make helpful points, and get involved in a proper way, but he's mostly more interested in asserting some kind of intellectual dominance over whomever he addresses.
'I'm not painting Jasper as a novelty as I know some people have received a lot of grief from him, although why anyone would take it as anything but guff and bluster is beyond me'
So in that sentence you are saying you understand - and then you're belittling me for not taking it as 'guff and bluster'... threatening behaviour is not guff and bluster, it is threatening behaviour.
I am with Jack:
"Oh...I'm a tosser.....what, because I won't subscribe to the little hate-fests that go on here?"
Actually, it's because you do, and then try to imply you're ten miles above them.'
I can't really believe I'm getting involved with this, but it's that tone that people jar with... that tone that says you are above it all, whilst at the same time instigating, fanning the flames of, and continuing these things. It's okay that you do - lots of people on here do - but it's hard to stomach when you pretend you don't.
Ah well. Have a good weekend people. I'm off to drink Guinness and eat chips. Hooray!
No, fergal, you have the wrong end of the stick. It's so easy to do on these forums: bloody well everything gets misinterpreted. Why would you think I was belittling you for anything?
All I am saying is that I don't understand why, even if Jasper hurls invective at you (and I mean, the collective 'you' here), why 'you' would pay any attention to it, as it's so clearly just guff and bluster? I find the more insidious, snarky, snide attacks that occasion on here to be much more difficult to blow off than someone who shouts and postures and makes farting noises.
I mean, I'm clearly not above it all, although I do try most of the time when I'm not feeling particularly feeble-minded, but I think the best thing to do with this *particular* member is 'wait and see', and not immediately rush to judgment or start a barney about it. Why come out swinging?
So can we move on, folks? Guinness and chips sounds awfully good right now...
I have read this thread with much interest and tried to follow the argument. As far as I am able to tell it is primarily about someone who has caused trouble in the past and certain members are not happy that he/she is back. I think that is fair enough and they are expressing their opinion there is no obvious hounding by them, are they emailing this person and demanding he leave or arguing with him when he has posted, I see no evidence of this. What I do see however is that one person in particular has attempted to shout down anyone who has expressed an opinion on this matter with no less than 16 posts out of 57, not at all bad considering that this persons main argument is people here should accept it and move on, kinda ironic, maybe they need to follow the advice of celery and take a huge dose of their own medicine.
"I find the more insidious, snarky, snide attacks that occasion on here to be much more difficult to blow off than someone who shouts and postures and makes farting noises."
Consider that most people - particular those newer to the site - are more likely to feel the opposite. 'Insidious, snarky, snide attacks' usually go unnoticed except by the persons they are directed at. Shouting and posturing and smothering everything with bewildering gobbledegook is right in your facet. The only way you can not be put off by Jasper is if you avoid all threads in which he takes part or struggle through enough of them to get used to it.
I used to be a tosser but you know, now with the affair and everything... (ha and I'm eating meat on a Friday in lent - so damned risque I am these days ooh err)
His name is Iain. He is half Scottish and half Iraqui.
actually this is all in the past as I left that company. I work for the Catholic Church now so maybe I'm having an affair with a bishop, in which case I'd need to know how big his crozier is.
"What I do see however is that one person in particular has attempted to shout down anyone who has expressed an opinion on this matter with no less than 16 posts out of 57, not at all bad considering that this persons main argument is people here should accept it and move on, kinda ironic, maybe they need to follow the advice of celery and take a huge dose of their own medicine."
Easterbonnet, didn't you go off to get a life, something like that? Hmm. People can have whatever opinions they want. As can I .
Thanks! Best wishes!
A guinness does sound good right now, cos. I'm irritated again. (Yes I’m kinda bored too, but irritated wins.) You see – there’s that tricky little stick waving about with the wrong end in the air again.
AG, if you make the statement,
‘Why anyone would take it as anything but guff and bluster is beyond me,’
or state that people, to you, seemed, ‘utterly helpless’ to prevent themselves from reacting to Jasper, it will – very unsurprisingly – come across as patronising. On the back end of your constant references to piffle, trifles and kindergardens and the like, the assumption that you may be, in fact, patronising isn’t that much of a stretch.
The same goes for the question you ask yourself regarding why some people got grief and others didn’t. As one of the ones who was on the receiving end, I feel prompted to reply. I appreciate the caveat at the end, but – it does beg a question doesn’t it, and I’m sure it was intended to. You didn’t get grief with the way you behaved towards his outbursts and others did, so... (come on children, do the math). You may not have meant to imply that, but that *is* how it came across to me. Now at this point I could just say, ‘the question I ask myself is – why – are some people constantly misunderstood while others aren’t…’ but that would just be snide, because I know exactly what I’m getting at and so do you, so instead I’ll say, AG, as you are frequently claiming that others get the wrong end of your stick, maybe it is down to you to be more careful with your phrasing.
I wasn't around in Jasper's day, but obviously he was offensive. If he/she hasn't changed they must be revelling in all this. If he/she has then only time will tell. Tc said at the beginning of this thread that he would be keeping an eye out so maybe we should accept that not turn the thread into another free for all on unresolved issues.
This is just a suggestion but couldn't these be ironed out in sending a member a message rather than on the forums.
Like I say I didn't know Jasper or what he did, but maybe he has changed and maybe he should have a second chance. If society was more forgiving then maybe it would be a much better place.
Sorry for being a liberal tosser.
Harry Kerdean
Yeah...that's right...Archer Girl. You've exceeded the maximum allowable, posts/quotes ratio for any given thread as enforced by the central scrutinizer. Now saunter back to the herd with the rest of the goats and stay in line next time...that's a good girl.
I am glad as a newbie that I popped in to see what happens in here! Yesterday I joined and posted politely and was treated to a curt response for doing something which the guidance notes actually advises and today I find the responders deep in an agument about what? A loser with attitude! Get a life and keep perspective, sheeeesh
Stewart
or is this an 'in joke' that I have fallen for?
And still it goes on and on, AG don't fall into line like a goat or whatever, it aint you, but at the same time (which I don't think is you) keep the petty squabbling going for the ake of others entertainment.
Harry Kerdean
RD - apologise sincerely for the stupid 'scapegoat' argument, or admit to all and sundry you're the tosser Spack says you are. Failure to do the former will inevitably result in the latter.
AG - address my point. Jasper is far worse than the sniping unless you are the person being sniped.
Hen, I'll apologize when you delete your account and recreate it as Hen. Until then, you'll be a tosser and Spack will be your toadie. I'll continue to bitch-slap you in the interum. Spack, you're okay, I know you didn't really mean it.
2Lou, it might've sounded patronising, but it twern't. Just a simple query. But I stand by my point: if ya don't buy into it, it don't bother ya.
I'm out of toothpaste.
That's number 18. Can I have a nice red balloon now?
I just used to ignore him. He's a tit and obviously inadequate socially and intellectually. Poor potty training I shouldn't wonder. But yahoo! I'm now with the world of new computers after suffering 6 feckin' months of computer meltdown.
To return to the thread: I'd rather be abused than be an abuser. Maybe we could all chip in and get him some psychotherapy. Can you do that through PayPal?
Couldn't agree with you more leftboy. Although, I did have a nasty experience with jasper a while back when he criticised my feelings towards a piece of poetry. I don't mind objective debate - but subjectivity is excactly what it means. Up until that point I was supportive of him for the very reason you point out above, namely: there are (or were) some real repugnant characters leaching this site and in cases such as those my support of the underdog was most definately more noble than my siding with a bunch of snidy t**ts.
There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett
A scapegoat can also be one who is punished for the errors of others. In a site that is rampant with belittling comments (see directly above for the most recent), to bring attention only to Jasper as the one who has or does dish them out is to make him a scapegoat.
There are psychoanalytical theories of scapegoat also. So difficult to pin down but I'd hazard a guess, judging on experience, that the whole scenario was wound up by a resident scrag, the underdog (another definition of a scapegoat) bit back and then the sociological/political model kicked in - much to the scrags delight. Six of one and half a dozen of the other is memory serves me well. Problem is - the old boy was victor - despite the fact that he contributed absolutely nothing to the site except bad air and has since emigrated to elvismeetup.com. :)
There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett
I can see the whole 'should Jasper remain banned' question degenerating into a 'Jasper, defender of New Members (hate the term newbie) against the Evil ABC Cronie Empire' argument. That ain't it. On a longstanding site, you’re going to get longstanding members. And this can be a nightmare. You get a lot, or a few, people who know each other, you get in-jokes, you get people being used to the way things work, the way things cock up and a tendency to jump the gun on numerous occasions. It can be very off-putting. But you’re going to get it. It doesn’t mean that all the older members are somehow acting as a committee to brow beat ‘newbies’. God knows – the amount of bickering that goes on amongst themselves, must show that. It’s not a conspiracy. It’s not towing some imaginary line. It’s just human nature that the ones who stick around long enough through love or habit, probably end up with a similar attitude to the site as each other. It does look bad on occasion, I know, I’ve seen it, but without it, what do you get - a constant transient mix of people never staying long enough to form any sort of community feeling. I really don’t know. I don’t like the ‘them and us’ feeling it can foster. I don’t like the no ‘us’ feeling either.
I’ve been visiting here for a while now but not as long as most, so I’m not sure what I’m considered to be. All I can say is that, I have stood up for so called, ‘underdogs’ in the past, I just didn’t feel the need nor the inclination to stand up for Jasper.
(I admit I did turn on Jasper before he turned on me, but it was ‘eventually’ out of sheer exasperation when he started pontificating (statistics included) as to how the Jews had it coming to them and that Hitler was a humane guy because he gassed rather than shot them all. Any underdog sympathies I may possibly have had for him, evaporated after a few rounds on that subject, and my God there were plenty of objectionable subjects to choose from.) I dunno. It’s only a website.
Speaking of Elvis...
Ladies and Gennelmen, Alumbloom has entered the building.
(yan)
Lou, yes, you are a relative newbie but since your thought processes and humour match those of older members you are automatically included in the clique that only exists in the minds of the braindead.
I thought I'd just jump in to make a few points:
1. Regulars vs. New People
The regulars vs. new people debate is one that runs and runs over many websites that have built a community. The new don't know the lay of the land and how things are done by the accepted wisdom of the site and thus find their own ways of using what's on offer, the regulars resent them for the fact that with new people comes change.
Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. It's true that new people can upset the balance of something already in existence, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The internet is a place where the cycles of nostalgia of far, far shorter than is common in normal life. The fall to a feeling that 'everything is going to the dogs' can take days rather than years. The great weakness and great strength of a site like ABCtales is that it changes as its members change, because its not much more than a space where people interact.
2. Scapegoats or otherwise
It's my opinion, and this is only an opinion, that there is a kind of kindness fatigue walking ABCtales. Many of the old regulars have been around for years and have been understanding and have expended time and effort in their membership of the site, both in their interactions with other people and with ABCtales in general. I imagine that they feel a bit cheesed off that, after so long a period of belief and effort, there doesn't seem to be any progression. This makes people wonder 'Exactly what am I doing here?', and rightly so. This, I feel, can make people a bit snippy and snappy when it comes to others on the site.
If there is something that is lacking from your experience of ABCtales, it's worth putting it in writing to either me or Tony. I agree that ABCtales has, at times, seemed to have stalled, and that it hasn't fulfilled some of its promise.
I think that disruptive people have the 'last straw' effect for people. If everyone was satisfied with what they were getting from ABCtales, a disruptive person would be a just that, rather than a factor that can divest you of what delicate and fragile satisfactions you are drawing from your use of the site.
3. Asking for feedback
When I first came onto ABCtales I asked for feedback on my first piece and got some that drew me into the site. I don't think that asking for feedback is wrong, but as I think I've said before and say in the guidelines to the 'Discuss Writing' forum, the problem lies with out people accept it. Gong back to kindness fatigue, if you don't want to offer feedback, don't. I really can't see what it achieves to snippily point out to someone the accepted wisdom of the site when they couldn't possibly be aware of it, having just joined! Respect has to be a bottom line. No respect of others, no site.
4. Disruptive people.
This whole debate reminds me a bit of one of those 'magic eye' pictures. You sit and you look at the picture, and if you do so long enough, a picture appears. It seems that many of the differing points that have come out of this thread don't really concern the return or otherwise of a person that many consider to be disruptive, but are in fact wider grievances with the site and the community. Looking at what people have been saying, this debate has taken the crust off some very deep and painful feelings about ABCtales.
If someone contravenes our equal opportunities policy, or commits a potential libel their posts will be removed. If the persist in such behaviour it is our discretion as the legal owners and publishers of this site to remove them.
5. Way forward?
I think a debate, carried out with respect and kindness about what you want from ABCtales and how we all can get it might be the way forward. As Editor of ABCtales, even though I have been engaged in other projects of late, I want to find a way of making ABCtales a satisfactory and, dare I say it, enjoyable place for user both established and new.
Cheers,
Mark Brown, Editor, www.ABCtales.com
"A scapegoat can also be one who is punished for the errors of others."
Or blamed.
" In a site that is rampant with belittling comments..."
It isn't.
" to bring attention only to Jasper as the one who has or does dish them out"
No one is doing that.
You've not properly understood what people don't like about Jasper. It isn't that he makes 'belittling' comments. It's that he has a tendency to make very long, winding, absurdly over-intellectual (to the point of unintelligible,) comments with a tone of haughty superiority, which kill conversations dead because no one can easily respond to them. And he does this on purpose, and traditionally, does it a lot - the reason he was banned last time was because he seemed to be systematically killing off every thread. Swamping the forums.
This is not a 'community' problem. We are not blaming him or punishing him for something that happens anyway, whether or not he's here. He is being attacked and blamed for what only *he* has done in the past. So no one is scapegoating Jasper.
Personally, I never had as big a problem with Jasper as others seem to, and he didn't worry me too much, because I've never felt he's been belittling me personally - also, I didn't spend much time on the site when he was most active. My involvement on this thread came about primarily because of the utterly inane, pitiful and hopelessly misguided put-downs directed at those people who, quite justifiably, want to see Jasper gone, by those who, for the most part, haven't got a clue what they're talking about.
Like, for example, this prime slice of unbelievable bullcrap:
"It's the old 'stone the hunchback in the square' and 'punch the black kid in the playground' syndromes."
I'm open to a serious debate about whether people should be banned or not, even if I'm initially far more sympathetic to those who want Jasper gone. It's not an easy question. But it just degrades the whole conversation beyond petty and beneath pointless when people pile in with facile nonsense about how Jasper is being scapegoated or treated like a 'black kid', presumably in an attempt to try and make themselves look charitable or humanist. If you don't understand what all the fuss is about, don't comment. You have to actually know what he's being accused of before you can mount a defense.
The issue is: he has annoyed, infuriated and upset a lot of people by swamping the forums before, to a greater extent than anyone else except Ritawrites (who has also been banned). How far should someone be able to go before banning becomes the best option?
Are you talking about Jasper, RD? Leave the poor guy alone... jeez!
I've had a really long hard think about it and I think I've come up with a solution:
Why don't we all just get along?
Stormy's post on the Chocolate thread should be enough to shut you up, RD. I just don't believe that if you knew everything that Jasper - specifically - has done in the past, that you would defend him.
If we're talking about the principle of banning, then I'd probably plump for the easy option too: why can't we all just get along? But we're not, it's specific, and bleeding obvious..
There's a really disturbing side to Jasper, aside from his ability to bring this website to a halt, and it starts with his penchant for flattering female poets...
I have to agree with Jon regarding his assessment of those misguided souls that seem to think Jasper/nikaya/venson has been some poor innocent boy who was tied to the whipping post for the perverted pleasure of the nasty old-timers.
As he says, they don't really have a clue what they're banging on about.
Venson, as he now likes to be known (though I guess the only way he was going to get past the doorman was to re-invent himself), was everything Jon says and more. In fact the 'more' bit was the worst bit. A self-confessed attempted murderer he bullied and abused others, not just in public but in private email. I add that they were almost exclusively women.
He was and is a prime example of just how nasty a human being can become left unchecked.
Alumbloom was almost as bad at one point, when he was on his 'gypsy' soap box.
I on the other hand, haven't emigrated to anywhere (elvismeetup.com is no more, at least the London chapter, and was crap anyway).
The reason I don't come here much anymore is partly because the site has problems that remain unresolved, (inspite of Mark saying cheerily 'mail me if there's a prob, nothing gets done). Partly because I don't really want to take part in forums that allow someone like the expatriot American to delete things she finds personally offensive. (who the hell does she think she is? jesus christ? I'm sorry Tony, but allowing her to be an editor is just about as bad as your decisions have got.)
Three years ago ABC was a great place to be, since then most of the really interesting people have left. The site has been 'upgraded' to it's present semi-dysfunctional state and the cameraderie and community that lived here is gone.
Why have I bothered to add to this already tedious thread? I was never one to sit back and let the likes of Alumgoon and jasperger to go unanswered.
Missi, that's 'expatriate', not 'expatriot'. Get it right if you're going to slag me off.
You've never been one to sit back and refrain from judging, either, even when you have no idea what occurred. So, be nice!!
Well as it happens I DO know what happened, don't go kidding yourself that because my name isn't visible I'm not watching or that I don't have friends here that keep me informed.
You are of course right, I mis-spelt a word! I'll go stand in the corner with my hands on my head. You COULD of course as an 'editor', correct it, or if it's THAT heinous a crime, delete it.
~
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The All New Pepsoid the Umpteenth!
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There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett
There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett
~
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Share your state secrets at...
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