Black Dog

Black Dog

“You need to pull yourself together.”

“Come on… snap out of it and pull your socks up.”

These are the sorts of things that have been said to me in the past when I’ve been going through a depressive episode. The sort of people who’ve said them (including ‘close’ family) are the sort of people who simply don’t have a fucking clue what depression is all about. They think it’s ‘just making yourself unhappy and miserable by dwelling too much on negative things.’ If only it was that simple. I dunno... maybe it is.

I’ve suffered from clinical depression for nearly 20 years. The first episode was triggered by a combination of things. I’d just finished at university, which had been a very stressful time. I’d been in a relationship which had foundered quite messily. I’d started a new job. Okay… the kind of stuff we all have to deal with. But we don’t all respond in the same way. Depends on all sorts of things that have gone before, and how these have reacted with – and formed – our individual psychology. Suddenly, everything hit me all at once and I went down. Since then, it’s happened with increasing frequency. Much of it is rooted in childhood experiences. Three years ago, I was nearly completely wiped out by it: I was in a job I hated (and which, in the end, I couldn’t face unless I was drunk), my marriage was collapsing and my father was dying. When he finally died, it all came to a head. I went on a bender that lasted six months, covering the period of separation from my wife, divorce, going on extended sick leave from my job, running into debt, then changing my job. A lot of stuff to deal with. What got me through was daily attendance at a drop-in alcohol unit and a course of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (I don’t care if people hate the title – the principle and practice were invaluable to me). A year ago, things seemed to be back on an even keel again – and then, quite unexpectedly, it all came back to give me a final kicking. But I got through it, and have managed to keep things under control. ABC has helped tremendously. You can’t begin to believe how much. I thank you all.

And so to today. Here it is again – triggered by a number of things. I’m not happy with where I live, but I can’t find a way out. Writing – something I NEED to do – has dried up. Completely. There’s simply nothing there. And then today I go into work and have a stupid disagreement with my boss – and that’s all that’s needed to throw all the switches. I come home, get drunk (first time in 3 months) and fall into that hole again. I know... daft. Stupid. Weak. But fuck it.

I don’t want sympathy, and I don’t expect it. I just want to get some of this stuff out of my system and onto paper. And to see if there’s anyone else out there who can identify with the problem, and who might have something helpful or insightful to say about it.

Thanks for your time, anyway. Sorry to be so self-indulgent and miserable.

Thu, 2007-03-22 09:26

Henry Lebowski

I guess if I could give you an easy solution to the cycle of depression, I'd have a queue out the door. The only way I find that I can deal with it, is to try and actively fight it. Not easy of course. It is relatively simple to identify destructive patterns of behaviour, it is not so easy to steer yourself away from them when the cloud descends. Simplistically, look at the factors that have sent you downwards this time and attempt to make some progress on them. It needn't be huge changes in your life, but just enough to let you feel that you still have an element of control. When I am real down (have been on and off for 25 years), whilst it can be the merest thing that puts me there, it is often the merest thing that can get me up again. Hope you find that thing real soon.

Thu, 2007-03-22 10:05

Mine is a black cloud, not a dog. It has been drifting over and settling upon me since my early teens. It took me more than ten years to actually notice the cycle/process, and realise I could only wait for it to pass, and that alcohol, crack and heroin actually made it worse (shock horror).It took years more to find a viable way of dealing with it. On a good day I know it's my head, on a bad day I believe the hype: there is no point in taking the next breath. I used to think I was clever because i was the only one who could see this. Well, except for a few close friends - one of then hanged himself and the other was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. Now I realise the best way to deal with my head is to be aware of it. I meditate daily, and it gives me some clarity, perspective and detachment from the blackcloud. I can watch it, and see it for what it is. It works better than citalopram (or heroin, or booze)>

Thu, 2007-03-22 10:11

brooosh

I can identify with what you are saying to a degree Alan. I was diagnosed as mildly depressive two years ago and was prescribed some tablets, but decided for various reasons not to take them. I recently had two career setbacks and lost four close family members in quick succession, which didn't help. I have to say I know very little about the brain and am completely unqualified to advise you on what you should do, but knowing several people who suffer from severe depression I have some understanding of what you are going through. This is a trick I discovered quite by accident. It probably won't work for anyone else, but I have found it helps me, so I'll tell you what it is just in case. Choose a random but fairly common letter of the alphabet (i.e. not j,k, q, x, y or z). Then set a timer for three minutes and think of as many words as you can beginning with that letter in three minutes. Now comes the critical bit. You have to think of these words at the most frantic pace possible. Imagine your life depended on coming up with a high score. Drive your brain to the limits. As you are saying one word, you are seaching for the next three. I mean be utterly manic about it. Then relax at the end of the three minutes. Distract yourself. Think about something completely different. About five or ten minutes after the exercise, I find a wave of euphoria washes over me. I have no idea why this works or indeed if it would work for anyone else, but it does help me. Another trick that I find helps with the writing is to go for a jog every morning. I find that after a few minutes the ideas just start to flow. Since we're all so different, these will probably be of no use to you, so my apologies for wasting your time. But I can to some extent identify with what you are going through and I really do hope you feel better soon.

Thu, 2007-03-22 12:17

Have you read 'Feeling Good'? It's a CBT book but it's really, really good - popular psychology in the best sense of the term. I suspect at the moment, for all your feelings of low self-esteem, you're crediting yourself with incredible precognitive abilities that allow you to see into your own future and know with absolute certainty that everything will be rubbish.

Thu, 2007-03-22 13:03

Yan2

Yep! The Black Dog becomes a familiar after a while. Some days I'll crawl out of bed and he's there staring me in the face and I know that it's going to be a long, long, dark, painful day. I just ride it through now. I know when he's about to call, there's fuck all I can do about it. There's no point in telling me to 'do a few push-ups, have a read, do something you normally enjoy' because there's nothing in this world I enjoy or would even find the strength of body or mind to find slightly interesting, amusing, or worthwhile, during those times. NHS mental health services are totally shit, not enough is yet known about the brain, and people, like you say, ust don't fucking get it sometimes. It's not like having a broken leg that someone can pop round and sign and actually SEE (and relate to) what the problem is. There's nothing there to let me ppl know what you're going through. So, it's a very lonely journey miles inside yourself, and as much as it sounds odd - black dog sometimes becomes your only companion down there! ;) best try to get to know him ...it makes things a little easier. Then there are those days when I wake up and it's asif I burst through the surface of a dark ocean, gasping for air, and the sun is shining and I'm treading water so near to land. It's exhillarating, like being on holiday. So I start swimming for the shore and hope I can get there before I'm pulled under again. I haven't managed to reach dry land yet, but I get a little closer each time , There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

Thu, 2007-03-22 13:13

"And so to today. Here it is again – triggered by a number of things. I’m not happy with where I live, but I can’t find a way out. Writing – something I NEED to do – has dried up. Completely. There’s simply nothing there. And then today I go into work and have a stupid disagreement with my boss – and that’s all that’s needed to throw all the switches. I come home, get drunk (first time in 3 months) and fall into that hole again. I know... daft. Stupid. Weak. But fuck it." Wow. That certainly struck a chord. In fact, I was wondering for a second there whether we were one and the same person! In the spirit of a little self-revelation, I'm on fluoxetine (aka Prozac) and it helps stabilise my moods a bit, but it's no panacea. I started taking A-Ds again about three months ago -- first time since about 1997 -- after having had constant intrusive suicidal thoughts (I emphasise "thoughts" as opposed to "desires"...I don't think I've ever been genuinely suicidal.) Anyone expecting someone with depression to be unsuccessful at work, unlucky in love, bombarded with bereavement, or any other obvious cause-effect markers, is missing the point. These things can trigger a bout, but I haven't much experienced any of the above for years. People are genuinely depressed when -- this is how I sum it up anyway -- they believe nothing in their life could ever make them happy. This feeling manifests itself in all sorts of dysfunctional behaviour. You can't excuse the behaviour, so you like yourself and your life even less. And so on. Come on...someone tell me a joke!

Thu, 2007-03-22 13:16

I disagree, Yan. In my experience, the NHS understand it totally. They know enough about the brain that they can treat it with drugs, which beats "talking through your problems" which is okay for Americans who want to blame everything on their parents but, for me, a waste of time.

Thu, 2007-03-22 13:36

The NHS does not understand it totally. They fire drugs at the brain without knowing exactly what they will do. That is why they sometimes work for some people, and often don't for others. Some people kill themselves on anti-depressants. Some people blame the pills for that. There is some truth in all that. The NHS is not shit, but it is not all-knowing, and I do not expect it to be. Rokkitnite's comment about the precognitive abilities is pretty spot on for one aspect of my occasional state of mind/depression. There is nothing out there so far that has stopped it. Books or drugs. What I have to do is live with it. CBt etc, and drugs, can help to see that it is not reality but a thought process and the feeling that goes with it. It helps one to step to the side and get some perspective. But then there are still those days when it is overwhelming, and I go to that place that Yan described.

Thu, 2007-03-22 13:52

#10

"The NHS does not understand it totally. They fire drugs at the brain without knowing exactly what they will do." Okay, "understand totally" was a bit much, but what I mean is, things have moved on incredibly. It's treated as any other illness now -- like a gammy leg -- because that's what it is. It's a bit of your brain not working properly. You don't get ANY of the stop-feeling-sorry-for-yourself attitude the medical profession used to dole out. You get TREATMENT, and whilst the wonders of the brain are yet to be licked, we're getting bloody close. And there will never be a drug that works for everyone. "Some people kill themselves on anti-depressants." No shit. Manic depressives take them! And, as I said before, they have an effect (usually) but a subtle one. Not every suicidal can be brought back from the brink. Some may kill themselves because the drugs aren't the cure-all they were looking for. Doctors warn that suddenly stopping taking them can cause an unusually intense bout. And some use them to overdose because they happen to be the pills they have lying about. But the medication itself can trigger suicide? Maybe, but they do more good than harm. Look at the stats. I was offered mental-health counselling, but I turned it down. My problems are no worse than anybody else's, so spending hours with some jumped-up prat talking about them won't do any good. My sadness is simply a malfunction in my brain that needs rewiring. You won't find the answer to that in a book.

Thu, 2007-03-22 13:54

#11

ggggareth

Alan. I can't begin to imagine what you're going through, but I do know one thing: for someone who is completely dry (writing-wise), you have pulled off a remarkable descriptive piece above. So well done for getting it out to us. Good luck.

Thu, 2007-03-22 14:02

#12

How odd, Sean, you took my line, out of context (which was pretty much in the next two lines and whole post)and made some point which was pretty much what I said. Look at the stats indeed. That is very funny. Your sadness is yours, mine is mine, and Alan's is Alan's. What works for one does not work for another, although I shouldn't think talking to a jumped up prat would do anyone any good. Why would anyone? We can share our stuff though, which is what we are doing here, so talking might just help someone somewhere just a little bit...

Thu, 2007-03-22 14:02

#13

'My sadness is simply a malfunction in my brain that needs rewiring. You won't find the answer to that in a book.' That's a very interesting assertion, Sean. I wonder on what authority you've come to that conclusion? Do you mean a physical malfunction or a malfunction in your thought processes? 'My problems are no worse than anybody else's, so spending hours with some jumped-up prat talking about them won't do any good.' Well, absolutely - I agree that you wouldn't want to invest time talking to an incompetent or unhelpful therapist. But does the fact that your problems are no worse than anyone else's disqualify you as a candidate for help? If you drop an anvil on your foot does it hurt any less if you know that your neighbour is on fire? I suspect the answer to both of these questions is no. (though I must admit to having never tested the latter in a controlled environment) Certainly there's no miracle cure - as far as I know - but longitudinal studies have shown that 'bibliotherapy' (learning CBT from a book) can be as effective as a 'talking cure' or a course of antidepressants. I'm sure there isn't some one-sentence insight that would instantly transform you into some transcendent guru, but I wonder one what basis you're discounting therapy or relevant books?

Thu, 2007-03-22 14:13

#14

markbrown

Hello. Some of you might remember me as editor ABCtales. Some of you might not. After leaving ABCtales, I moved to Social Spider (www.socialspider.com), a not-for-profit CIC design, communication and social action agency. One of our current projects is 'One In Four' an aspirational lifestyle magazine, written by people with mental health difficulties, for people with mental health difficulties. It's at the pilot stage, funded by the charitable fund of South London and Maudsley NHS Mental Health Trust (http://www.slam.nhs.uk/) and the Charlie Waller Memorial Trust (http://www.cwmt.org/). The magazine will present information relating to mental health and well-being in accessible and attractive ways, putting the experience of mental illness firmly into the mainstream. Both current mental health service users and journalists with experience of mental health difficulty will be involved in the production. The magazine will include articles on aspects of mental health and well-being, lifestyle and health advice, news and opinion and practical advice on ways to get the most out of life. I mention this because the idea for 'One In Four' came out of my own experiences of living with an ongoing mental health difficulty, which has in turn underpinned the editorial approach of the magazine. We're looking to explore a lot of the actual, practical real-life implications of mental health difficulty in the magazine, something that we think will be useful. Just thought you might be interested. It'll be available for free around South London in May. Cheers, Mark

Thu, 2007-03-22 14:15

#15

Yan2

"I disagree, Yan. In my experience, the NHS understand it totally." Congrats! A happy customer. Wish it were the same for me. ;) Really do. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

Thu, 2007-03-22 14:17

#16

"I wonder on what authority you've come to that conclusion? Do you mean a physical malfunction or a malfunction in your thought processes?" Physical malfunction. I'm not an authority. This is just what I think. Whatever the original cause of somebody's Tourette's is (and some claim it is environmental), the identifiable problem is a lack of stimulation in the part of the brain that controls inhibitions. That's why a sufferer getting it off his chest that he experienced an early trauma through a beating from his stepfather will achieve just about bugger all. Whilst inserting a live electrode into the right part of the brain -- as has been shown in America -- often makes the Tourette's virtually disappear. This is how I want to look at depression. A brain problem. My problem with self-help books and yabber is that they make others not take the problem seriously, as something medical. One day, I believe, all mental-health problems will be treatable by drugs and surgery. If what I see as mainly anachronistic and money-spinning "therapy" seems to work for others, then I defend the right of others to use it.

Thu, 2007-03-22 14:33

#17

'This is how I want to look at depression. A brain problem. My problem with self-help books and yabber is that they make others not take the problem seriously, as something medical. One day, I believe, all mental-health problems will be treatable by drugs and surgery.' Do you think that studying dysfunctional thought-patterns and contesting self-defeating assumptions is a less serious approach than looking for medical solutions? And do you think that the use of one necessarily precludes the use of the other? Viewing mental dysfunction as purely somatic isn't, in my humble opinion, a superior paradigm to seeing it as 'all in the mind'. In truth, I think the two are interdependent. And, my own, totally subjective and personal experience has been antidepressants = useless, 'orrible; talking about it = best thing I ever did.

Thu, 2007-03-22 14:37

#18

Vive la difference, Rokkit! I'm genuinely glad you've found something that works for you, as I am about any fellow sufferer who has.

Thu, 2007-03-22 14:41

#19

Incidentally, about half of 'Feeling Good' is devoted to the physical, chemical processes of depression and it contains an appendix reviewing just about every single type of antidepressant medication on the market. I can't recommend it enough.

Thu, 2007-03-22 15:20

#20

fergal

My mistake with it is when I'm not feeling it and I think, 'Ah ha. At last I'm better!' and I take on a million things and then burn out. Also I find structure helps me. When I have no structure I just whizz off somewhere in my head and before I know it my room is a tip, I am behind on my bills and I have watched four solid days of MTV.

Thu, 2007-03-22 15:34

#21

Blimey, exactly what percentage of this membership suffers from depression? What a cheerful bunch we are. Might as well double up as a support group... ...which, incidentally, I do approve of. Talking to other people in the same boat gives you some peace if no actual solution.

Thu, 2007-03-22 17:58

#22

poetjude

I know I am one of at least 3 abc bipolar sufferers (although I maintain that was a misdiagnosis by an over-zealous psychiatrist). I spent a whole year here writing out my suicide ideation. After the first reading I did at an ABC event, half the audience had to form a self-help group as a result. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Thu, 2007-03-22 18:41

#23

lisa h

I don't suffer from depression. I have highs and lows, and when I have energy, like fergal, I push myself too hard. I did have a very low time for four years, when I was married to my ex, and for a couple of years after as the mess of our divorce was sorted out. I describe those years as black. I slowly swam my way out, but maintain that I'm not depressive, I was just in a very bad situation. However, I can see how if out of control, depression can be a terrifying thing to deal with. You didn't ask for sympathy. So I lend a hand to help you up and out. :) Lisa

Thu, 2007-03-22 18:45

#24

lisa h

As a more cheerful aside, has anyone tried St John's Wort for depression? I have gone on and off it every-so-often since I discovered it (and long after the evil ex). I think it's the best thing since sliced bread!

Thu, 2007-03-22 18:56

#25

bobblehat2023

"One day, I believe, all mental-health problems will be treatable by drugs and surgery." I think this is unlikely, not least because I think it's unlikely we'll ever reach a point where all physical health problems are all treatable - or best treated - by drugs or surgery. But this is even less likely to happen with mental illnesses are generally labels put on a series of symptoms. They aren't either there or not there in the way that a tumour or a virus is. People have conditions based on a series of symptoms and various treatments either do or don't tackle these symptoms effectively. Of course, it one sense what you're arguing for is already in place; all mental health problems CAN be treated by drugs or surgery. What won't happen is a situation where all patients and health professionals agree that this is definitely the best way of dealing with all conditions for everyone.

Thu, 2007-03-22 21:44

#26

Wow, folks. Never expected to get such a response. I'll be honest with you all now - when I woke up this morning, in the cold light of day, I thought 'Why the fuck did I put that post on ABC?' I feel embarrassed about it because it feels like the worst form of self-indulgence and attention-seeking. I'm sorry - I was out of my head last night. I was crying out and there was no one to hear. I should have just picked up the phone. But thanks, everyone, for your comments and wishes. Even seeing some of the differences of opinion the subject has evoked has cheered me up! Let's me know that the spirit of ABC is alive and well - and I mean that in the nicest way possible. I'm okay today. It's been a much better day. I pulled myself up a bit. Writing? Well, fuck it. It ain't the end of the world after all. Maybe it's time to concentrate on something else for a bit. Thing is, it's one of the few things I've found that I can 'do' - and when I can't 'do' it... well, you know the rest. Sean said something: "People are genuinely depressed when -- this is how I sum it up anyway -- they believe nothing in their life could ever make them happy." That's how I've felt over the last few days. It's taken today, with a few life-affirming things I've needed quite desperately, for me to see the other side of it. The only other thing I'd say is... I don't take meds now. The doctor wanted me to carry on with them. But he also referred me to mental health counselling, where I was given every encouragement to face life without meds. The alcohol unit, too - NHS, I should say - was a real life-saver. You could attend the drop-in sessions every week-day. They had two sessions: one for people on meds, and one for people who weren't. It felt like quite an achievement when I'd got to the stage where I could kick the meds and attend both daily sessions. I felt like I was getting twice the benefit. I haven't taken meds since - which means perhaps I suffer a bit more than I need to when the dog bites. But not taking pills, in its way, is encouraging. It shows me I'm coping cold turkey. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, of course. You have to be ready for it. CBT, for me, was a great help in that respect. The service obviously varies from region to region - but I can only say that NHS mental health provision in my area, East Kent, is good. It could always be better - couldn't they all? - but it does its best with what it has. I couldn't have pulled through without them and I'll always be grateful to them. Thanks again, everyone.

Thu, 2007-03-22 21:51

#27

Wahey! He's back. Nice one. Pull your socks up. No really, nice one. (Pull 'em up).

Thu, 2007-03-22 21:57

#28

I wear garters, actually. Thanks for the reminder though, Josie.

Thu, 2007-03-22 22:18

#29

Yan2

'I wear garters, actually.' hmm..manic episodes too. hmm There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

Fri, 2007-03-23 19:16

#30

vicky

I don't understand depression at all. Which is a bit worrying as I'm currently signed off sick with it. Hi everyone, been a while. I used to be a regular here at ABC since - ooh I don't know 2000 I think - an early joinee. I was self employed for a while which gave me lots of flexi time to chat on my PC with the guys & galls of ABC & then I was a student which gave me heaps more. Been working a high pressure job for the last year or so, so I haven't been around much. But today I have the singular pleasure of being off sick with some sort of illness which I don't understand, am not sure how to deal with & scares the crap out of me. Honestly I think I'd be okay if I could just stop crying. Anyway. Good to see you all ( good to see lots of old friends & new names). I'm gonna go do some reading as I have so much time. Cheers Vicky

Fri, 2007-03-23 20:17

#31

CBT helped me to understand it a lot better, Vicky. Some of the thought processes that lie behind it, anyway. What it didn't explain is why I'm sometimes on top of the world, then other times - even if there aren't any obvious triggers - I'm struggling to find a reason for existence. It's been suggested that I should test for bipolar, though my mood swings aren't sudden and severe. I can go for weeks feeling fine... then I just start to go down, and keep going. It's been more controllable since I've been easing up off the booze... but it still doesn't stop it from happening. My GP originally diagnosed endogenous (i.e. biological) depression - in the genes, in other words. But many specialists I've spoken to tend to be suspicious of this diagnosis, insisting that all depression is rooted in childhood experiences, conditioning, external stress factors, etc. Opinion seems to be divided. I think, personally, that both factors are relevant. There's loads of information available. This might be quite useful to you: http://www.depression.com/ Virginia Ironside's got some useful information here, too: http://www.virginiaironside.org/articles.php?id=10 Take care.

Sat, 2007-03-24 00:02

#32

Childhood experiences. I don't know. I don't remember any that were particularly traumatic. But then, I may not remember the most traumatic. That's what they say to anyone who doesn't fit the template of obvious explanation. I had some traumatic health issues in my twenties. But my conclusion tends to be: why dwell on this stuff, really? It won't help. The brain is like a computer: try to understand that sea of ones and zeros? Who haven't got a hope. But if a computer fucks up, there's almost always a simple solution. You might have to try a few things, but the solution is always far more simple than you ever would have imagined. Ask techies. Those greasy layabouts know nothing about machine code, but they can still fix computers. Anyway, thinking of ya, Alan. Big up.

Sat, 2007-03-24 00:14

#33

Thanks, Sean. I'm getting there with it. "my conclusion tends to be: why dwell on this stuff, really? It won't help." Absolutely right. My stuff goes back a lot earlier, though, and had a profound effect on things I should have done in my twenties. I still dwell on it now - and it doesn't help. I know I shouldn't do it. But I still do. I can't help it. Yes, I can. No, I can't.

Sat, 2007-03-24 00:20

#34

The other thing about where mental illness originates: this does not always help us to treat the problem. See my above comments about tourette's. The cause? Anyone's guess. They used to pontificate in the same way: childhood trauma, blah blah. The symptoms of tourette's are more in your face and like Buk's tumour, "there". -- but, at the end of the day, traditionally, it has also been a (again, as per Buk) a label for a mixture of symptoms. Physical ticks, profanity, inappropriate outbursts, some weird, some offensive. But the point is, though risky, inserting electrodes to stimulate the right part of the brain can pretty much solve the problem. Now that's mind-blowing. Everyone is spending to much time worrying about where depression comes from. Like the tourette's sufferers, we don't need to know where it comes from. We just need effective treatment. I can understand folk not wanting to wangle electric rods in our brains. We're not outwardly as in need of help. But we'd love it never the less.

Sat, 2007-03-24 00:21

#35

Help, that is. Not the wangling! God, I've rambled.

Sat, 2007-03-24 00:31

#36

"we don't need to know where it comes from. We just need effective treatment" Hmm. I'm still of the opinion that knowing where it comes from plays a part in effective treatment. As I said, the most effective treatment I had - apart from with the drop-in groups - was with CBT... which is all about finding out where it comes from. Just my experience, though. It's like continually taking painkillers to treat your hangovers, without looking at why you get the hangovers in the first place. Or taking cough syrup to soothe your smoker's cough. They're not good analogies, I know... but you see what I mean.

Sat, 2007-03-24 03:32

#37

Yes, I see what you mean. But you're right about analogies. You can twist them to say anything. I mean, if you broke you arm, you wouldn't spend hours going, "How did all this start?" "I climbed a tree." "Yes, that was stupid. But what MADE you climb the tree?" "My innate desire to climb in the world." "Where did that come from?" "My parents, I suppose." You would just get someone to put your arm back together. So, yeah. Anologies. Pretty rubbish, innit.

Sat, 2007-03-24 15:21

#38

bobblehat2023

"Everyone is spending to much time worrying about where depression comes from. Like the tourette's sufferers, we don't need to know where it comes from. We just need effective treatment." I think where it comes from is important. But that's important for physical ailments, too. It's important to know that lung cancer comes from smoking, for example. "But the point is, though risky, inserting electrodes to stimulate the right part of the brain can pretty much solve the problem. Now that's mind-blowing." Even if this form of treatment was 100% safe, I'm still dubious about its effectiveness in treating all conditions currently described as mental illness. There's lots of reasons for this but a key one is that when mental illness has been triggered by life experiences, those life experiences can just be made to go away. Another is that there often isn't clear dividing line where a mental illness ends and person begins. To believe that mental illness can usually just be cured with a drug or surgical procedure is a similarly flawed approach to the classical religious belief that some mental illnesses were demons that could be exorcised.

Sun, 2007-03-25 20:58

#39

hello Vicky, good to see you again. Often wondered where you went. On depression - In my experience, as LisaH also says up there - you get out of whatever situation is making you ill, and you change what is wrong with your life. Then, oh, miraculously, depression often begins to lift. It tends to occur when you isolate yourself in the middle of a shitty situation / life experience, and then indulge yourself with it. An example - my grandad took part in the Arnhem landings and saw significant numbers of his fellow soldiers and close friends killed and injured horribly. He suffered with guilt for the rest of his life. However, instead of going along to support groups and blathering about himself in a horribly self important, scab picking way for years, he raised his kids, loved his wife and got on with it, grateful he wasn't one with his skull blasted away. Of course, not everyone can do that - perhaps it takes a remarkably strong person with a steely character, but if he managed it... And yes I do know that it's not always that simple, and the fact that one persons suffering is worse than your own isn't likely to make you feel better, but it's a thought. Mental illness does exist, of course, but depression - I dunno, self indulgence doesn't make anything any better, ever.

Mon, 2007-03-26 01:03

#40

"In my experience, as LisaH also says up there - you get out of whatever situation is making you ill, and you change what is wrong with your life. Then, oh, miraculously, depression often begins to lift." Right... I'll give it a try. I could respond in similar vein, Liana, but that would just be chucking stones back, which is daft and achieves nothing. I wish I knew why you are clearly so bitter over a silly argument on a thread. That's all it was. A disagreement. Is the principle so vitally important? Can't people have differences of opinion, or misunderstandings, without resorting to name-calling and sarcasm?

Mon, 2007-03-26 07:41

#41

Oh... by your own standard there, am I not allowed an opinion Alan? It is how I feel... I havent called anyone names or been sarcastic. Edit - thinking about this, it is really weird... why am I 'clearly bitter' about a silly argument? I havent given that argument a moments thought since the thread ... how very strange. This stance I have on depression (note, NOT mental illness, depression), is an argument I have had with my best friend many times, without any flounce or huff. I've been diagnosed with depression myself and took prozac for eight useless fucken years, and looking back, it was ONLY because I was in a shitty situation. Everytime I feel myself slipping into a black fog, it's because some external factor makes me feel out of control. It's not rocket science. Talking about it aint going to help. Changing the situation, is. So I do. Try it. Now, why is that such an offensive standpoint?

Mon, 2007-03-26 10:12

#42

"I havent given that argument a moments thought since the thread" Oh, okay. I didn't realise. Sorry. It's been on my mind quite a lot. I tried corresponding, but didn't receive a reply. But maybe it didn't get through. That's why I assumed you were bitter - or 'upset' might have been a better word. And.... because of that, I read your above post as a 'dig' at my original entry: 'blathering... in a horribly self important, scab picking way' was the phrase that stuck out. But I clearly assumed wrongly, and I'm sorry for that. Yes, of course you're entitled to an opinion. Whoever said you're not? Not me, certainly. I am trying to change my situation. Things have been brought to a head anyway, so I have no choice. Talking about it? Well, I already said that I regret starting this thread. I was pissed, and it was a stupid thing to do - I do stupid things when I'm pissed... and quite a bit when I'm sober, too. As for talking about it in the correct environment - a drop-in group, such as the one I attended - I can only say that that, next to CBT, was the most beneficial thing I ever did. So I wouldn't go so far as 'talking about it ain't gonna help', because I think it depends on the individual - and the circumstances. Not everyone is able to change their situation. But that's my opinion, and I may be wrong... just as I may be wrong on so many other things. Once again, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I hope things are okay with you.

Mon, 2007-03-26 10:33

#43

Um, no, I didnt get the mail, or I would've replied. I guessed that it (the original disagreement) mightve have played on your mind, and so at the time apologised for my grumpiness... I've definitely spoken on thread to you since though.

Mon, 2007-03-26 11:10

#44

vicky

Thanks for the website Alan - I'll give it a look. Hey Liana, yeah the last time \i spoke to you, you were a student too. How did that all work out? The main reason I don't understand what's wrong with me is that there's nothing wrong with me or my life. I love my life - great job - career, decent money, hope for more, fab boyfriend, great home. I've never been happier or less worried about life & then - BAM. I'm knackered all the time, unable to express that I love my life, unable to enjoy it, can't sleep & can't stop crying. Makes no sense to me. I got checked out for thyroid, diabetes, liver function, the works. No physical ilness - the only thing left is mental - and I'm scared to hell. I'm not making it up. I don't want to feel like this i guarantee you. I want to be able to enjoy my fabulous life. I don't understand why I can't just snap out of it. Oh well. Back at the doctors tomorrow. Perhaps I'll understand more then. Cheers, both Vicky

Mon, 2007-03-26 12:22

#45

did you say a high pressured job? I'll wager that's somewhere at the heart of it you know. I got my 2:1 vicky. It's been a long time hasnt it? I hope things pick up for you.

Mon, 2007-03-26 13:46

#46

archergirl

"...looking back, it was ONLY because I was in a shitty situation. Everytime I feel myself slipping into a black fog, it's because some external factor makes me feel out of control. It's not rocket science." God, I couldn't agree more. I've had *exactly* the same experience; I only took happy-pills for a year, but I realised going in that it was never going to get better until I did something about the situation. The pills just kept me from killing myself or someone else, while I worked the rest out. It took a few more years to get there. However, in my case, talking about it *did* help, enormously. I found a great counsellor through my work, who did integrative therapy. I was able to not only figure out what the key patterns were that kept me spinning my wheels and in a depressed/enraged state, but also where those patterns came from. Often it *does* stem from childhood stuff, and I was able to see this, finally, and get past it. I took a slight bit of umbrage at Sean Playfair's assessment of therapy being all about blaming everything on their parents. It's not like that at all. Quite the opposite. As a parent, I realise all too well how easy it is to f**k up when raising a child, and no parent is perfect. What talking about my childhood did, was to show me the mechanisms I used to cope with my childhood, that I was still using although they clearly were not working for me as an adult. It was a real eye-opener, and I couldn't recommend it enough to anyone who is prepared to put in the 'work' to dig that deep and deal with what they find. Easy, it's not. Helpful, it is.

Mon, 2007-03-26 14:39

#47

Getting out of a stressful situation can often alleviate symptoms of depression and anxiety in the short-term, but all through our lives there are lots of situations which we enter *knowing* they are stressful, because their perceived benefits outweigh the stress - having kids, par exemple. And though one could, I suppose, bale on one's kids as a way of escaping the stress they engender, I imagine most people wouldn't see that as a reasonable solution. I did a bit of therapy and parts of it were useful, but I still see myself as someone who has a bit of a vulnerability when it comes to anxiety and depression. It'd be really good to find ways of bolstering my resilience, rather than just trying to sort stuff out when I feel like poo.

Mon, 2007-03-26 16:28

#48

styx

'They fuck you up your mum and dad', well mine did any way. Good old Philip Larkin. I've just come out of a session with an alcohol counsellor and talking about my childhood which was pretty hoary I said 'Christ it's no wonder I'm so fucked up.' It's taken me over 30 years of therapy (on and off) to arrive at that discovery. I almost burst into tears (and I don't cry godammit!) Thanks Alan for raising this subject I've been offered CBT before but turned it down, I'm now trying to get through to my GP to accept his offer. Citalopram fucked my libido so they went straight out the window, the same with Seroxat. My ex also felt suicidal on those things, and attempted it and very nearly succeeded, spending 2 days on life support. The only thing I've found to be helpful is therapy, and it's no good people talking about navel gazing, if the alternative is drinking yourself to death. Oh by the way it was Churchill who called his depression Black Dog. There are those in AA who say 'analysis paralysis' I retort 'analyse then utilise.' Cheers mine's a double.

Mon, 2007-03-26 17:16

#49

poetjude

My parents f****d me up but it is my responsibility as an adult whether to stay that way or not. I don't think there's any harm in trying therapy. But if the benefit isn't apparent after a few sessions (assuming you are being honest and giving it a good chance and effort) then don't waste any more time and money. Stats from credible research show something from the department of the bleeding obvious - therapy works but therapy doesn't always work. For me, it didn't help but that's my experience I don't speak for anyone else. jude

Mon, 2007-03-26 17:38

#50

archergirl

"I almost burst into tears (and I don't cry godammit!)" Styx, sometimes you make me wanna wrap a blanket around your shoulders and hand you a nice hot cup of tea and a jam roll. I don't cry much, either, during situations when I should; although I find it scarily easy to BLUB at really inappropriate times, like while watching The English Patient in a packed cinema. I spent much of my time in counselling, blubbing; the slightest thing would trigger it, but afterward I felt spent and cleansed. You're right about 'analysis paralysis'. My counsellor told me she's had a couple of patients for years on end, who will go to the brink of the thing that's actually eating away at them, and then get scared and back off, and she has to start over at the beginning. I had reached absolute rock bottom; I was nearly fired from my job (and anyone who has ever worked for a Council knows how hard it is to get fired). This appalled me, and combined with a huge urge to 'cut and run' (as Rokkit mentions, bailing on one's kids, whilst sometimes tempting, isn't really a good solution), I bit the bullet. It's funny, because for YEARS, when I was in the blackest part of my fugue and thought about suicide or murder nearly constantly and regularly smashed up the house, I staunchly refused to admit that counselling might help. "What can they tell me about myself that I don't already know?" was my standard answer. Well, 'they' (actually, she) told me a lot, and helped me *see* much more. Blimey. Rokkit, what you need is someone who can help you sort through your personal 'toolkit' of coping strategies, for when you start to feel wobbly. I don't think one can ever truly get away from 'trigger events' in life; they just get thrown at you. However, most of us have more tools than we ever know how to use. I still have the same tendency to let certain things get my goat, but now when I feel a goat getting me, I am *usually* able to change it around fairly quickly. It's been a brilliant transformation of some old, ugly habits.

Mon, 2007-03-26 18:14

#51