possible route to publishing success

ta Jan/Karl for words of advice/encouragement, the odds are stacked against unpublished authors so you right me wrong - probably. don't worry, if I get a contract you'll be among the first to know.

Why not just write a good book? Or is that too unorthodox? People are usually rejected because they're shite.

a lot of good writers have been rejected as well. With the greatest of respect your faith in the publishing sector's ability to spot original talent is heartwarming if a little disconnected from reality

You miss the point. The publishing sector's job isn't to spot original talent, it's to sell books but - when compared to just about any other industry - publishing is one of the least profit obsessed and most committed to doing a good job in terms of helping artists. The majority of books that do get published either lose their publishers money or just about break even. That doesn't mean there aren't good books out there publishers reject - different publishers have different specialisms or are good at selling particular types of books but broadly speaking you are attacking the wrong target. The problem is the public and the fact that they don't buy enough books. If people bought more books, publishers would sell more and more would get published. You've got to write a book that someone (and preferably a few hundred people) will want to buy.

*writes new telephone directory*

Dave nowhere in my post did I say it was the publishing sector's job to spot original talent. All I said was they are not very good at doing it. but it seems to me one of the best talents a writer can have is the ability to write books that sell. so spotting that kind of talent should be a priority for the sector, clearly as you say in your post they haven't been very good at it. You can't blame the public for poor sales. I assume you were being ironic when you typed that. If not enough books are being sold it's down to the publishing sector and the writers it signs up for not understanding what the public wants.

There are so many imponderables involved here. You - well, all of us really - could spend three years writing a cracking book. We may well have researched our market, discovered what kind of books are selling in our particular genre, be it detective, travel, cooking etc, eventually written our book, and be blissfully unaware that the publishers have also been busy over the last three years. They may well have been leading the public along a particular road that none of us know anything about. Their 'critical path planning' can be so far wide of any mark we imagine. Let's say, for instance, that you're a chef, and you check out the market to discover curry recipe books are selling like hot papadums at the moment. It's the latest thing. Everyone wants to know how to cook a decent curry. You really get excited about this. You attend evening classes fine-tuning your Indian food skills, perhaps you even travel to India to pick up some really novel ideas. You eventually sit down to write your book, taking great care. You're finished and really excited about it. You set off on your search for a publisher ..... only to discover that times have changed. Curry books are old hat now. Everyone's into Thai food. Or maybe it's the start of the summer and everyone's purchasing bar-b-que books. That's a simple example, but it happens. When Bill Haley and The Comets first hit the scene in the 50's, the kids wanted rock 'n' roll. And the kids got what they wanted. You may well have been the best euphonium player in the world, and you may well have truly believed that if you could only bring out a record of your euphonium solos you'd have topped the charts. But the kids wanted rock 'n' roll. Take my style of writing. I'm aware that it appeals to a certain demographic reader. While everyone who has read my book has enjoyed it, it's still about driving a cab. And there are precious few cab-driving books on the market. I'd love to think that mine could be the first. Wouldn't that be great? But I'm realistic enough to realise that my style of writing, my chatty style, appeals to a certain reader. That reader buys books about football hooligans, gangsters and bare knuckle fighters ..... ..... and i'm none of the above. I'm open to accusations of negativity here, but nothing could be further from the truth. I'm very, very positive about my writing and my ability to eventually make a good living. I'm involved in a number of other options that I choose not to discuss on these forums Take travel books. There's a lot of them about now, mostly written by very engaging and witty authors. I'd love to write one of these, and I actually have a phenomenal idea in mind. It really, really is a great idea. But it would take time, which unfortunately I don't have. And then how do I know that by the time I write my book someone else won't have thought of it and brought out a book along similar lines. And I certainly don't have the time or the means to purchase an old farm in Province and write about the year it takes to refurb. And anyway, that's already been done. My problem as a travel writer is that I'm a writer. Most travel writers started off as travellers and then decided to write about it. I'm looking for things to write about because I love to write, and that's my setback. Still, I've waffled on a bit too much tonight. Good night everyone, and good luck with whichever way your ventues take you, Bryant.

Ta Karl, very interesting post.

"You can't blame the public for poor sales. I assume you were being ironic when you typed that." No, I was being completely serious although my emphasis is slightly different from yours. "If not enough books are being sold it's down to the publishing sector and the writers it signs up for not understanding what the public wants." Well, no. You're making the gigantic assumption that the public wants more books and that, assuming the right books are provided, people will provide them. My hypothesis is that there's a something pretty close to a finite demand for books in general and that, to a large extent, publishers compete for the biggest possible share of the market.

The last bit of that point is that the supply of books vastly exceeds the demand and, unlike the supply of, for example, cakes - where if there's too many cakes for sales, cake manufacturers might give up and start making something else - writers tend not to do that.

Can't agree David. I'm happy to give up and I hope Jeffrey Archer and Nick Hornby join me in solidarity, in my stand against success. Any other nominations to whom should give up writing to make way for you?

bloody hell if you all put your thoughts together you'd have enough for a novel...

"Any other nominations to whom should give up writing to make way for you?" No one should give up writing to make way for me. I'm not suggesting that anyone who wants to write should give up at all - in fact, the majority of my professional life so far has been spent encouraging people to write. The point is that there's a limit to the number of people who can get books published and read by a wide audience. From most writers' points of view, writing a book is a very different thing to producing a product such as a loaf of bread or a can of beans but, ultimately a book is a product. The main reason why most books that don't get published, don't get published, is because publishers think people wouldn't buy them. Sales of books are very good. The publishing industry has done amazingly well in the face of competition from TV, cinema, video and the internet but there is a rough limit to how many books will buy,

the other idea I had was based on the fact that all the famous successful authors tell stories about how they were rejected by 26 publishers before they were finally accepted. so how about if you wrote in your covering letter to your first publisher this book has already been rejected by 167 publishers (and list some big names). That publisher might be inclined to steal a march on these big guys by signing you up. you could even include fictitious quotes from these publishers saying you'll never make it in publishing in a million years. stuff like that.

Are you serious, Bryant, or is this just a wind up?

Fantasic idea...I'm going to try this one...After all... who wants to be well know in 300 years after i'm dead. N let face it life is far to short to wait to find out... I'm game for owt as far as writing is concerned. How ever will you put bail up for me??? I recon it's about 7 years for fraud isnt it???

Karl I'm keen to be published and short of breaking the law or doing anything that offends my personal moral code I would be prepared to consider any unorthodox approach if it helped me get a contract. And I think the person above is wrong. I don't think it is fraud to set yourself up as an agent to draw attention to your book. The publisher is not being coerced into signing you up, he or she is still free to turn you down.

No, it's not fraud but it is pretty pointless. What makes you think that publishers who aren't interested in obscure, unheard of writers will somehow be interested in tips from obscure, unheard of agents. "so how about if you wrote in your covering letter to your first publisher this book has already been rejected by 167 publishers (and list some big names). That publisher might be inclined to steal a march on these big guys by signing you up. you could even include fictitious quotes from these publishers saying you'll never make it in publishing in a million years. stuff like that." Yes, I imagine the publishers reaction would be something along the lines of: "wow, what a fantastic opportunity to publish a book that no one else wants to publish, if only I had a slush pile of several thousand unsolicited novels, I'd have opportunities like this every day - ah, now that I think about, I do have a slush pile, a very big one. Why don't I publish loads and loads of books no one wants to publish? Ah yes (a) I'm running a business and (b) I'm a keen enviromentalist and would prefer that trees were left in the ground rather than being used so foolishly."

You are too dismissive Dave. In this business you need to get noticed and my suggestions could be one way to do that. There are plenty more. Most publishers will react in that boring and obvious way that you describe (them being boring and obvious not you), but you only need one of the bastards to sit up and take notice and you could be on your way to a contract. Writing well is only one aspect of this. You also have to get noticed. That's the point I am making.

hey you might not got up to J k rowling standards over night - but I can see this has it's benefits... People will know your name or the company's - if only as being mentioned on these pages to other new authurs..."Keep well clear!" It may get a small paragraph in the local rag... for dishonesty and bloody damn cheek..via the who appeared in court bit... and what your fine was and how many hours you have to do for the community to cleanse your soul.. But you know if JK can do it in a coffee shop I recon you could do this. I'll write when your locked up and bake cakes with files in them if you so request it... mind with my cooking you'd be better off just knocking the guard out with the cake and not trying to eat it... Good luck with the new venture

Oh! and if you need a partner... hints with a glint in her eye... (Well some one has to look after your affairs when your banged up...I am only thinking of you honest...) By the way the person above has a name - it's Jan... Just incase you need to put it on the visitors list...

I like your style Jan but we shall see who is right. When I complete my book hopefully next year I shall try a few things like this and some others as well and who knows what will happen. One thing I am determined to avoid is just being another manuscript in a pile of thousands. If I succeed in getting a contract I shall post here again. If I fail maybe I'll keep quiet about it.

Bryant, I always admire people with ideas. Any ideas, even if they don't work out. It demonstrates that those people are thinking and moving away from the masses in their approach. After several bad ideas, a good one usually surfaces. This isn't a good one. You'd get sussed out in a New York heartbeat. Most publishers have a number of literary agents who they know personally and work with on a regular basis (most agents have a number of publishers who they are in communication with regularly to discover what kind of material they may be searching for at the time). Now I'm not saying that it's impossible to break into these incestuous little groups, but it's hard work. A better approach may be to discover which bars they all use on a Friday night and become a regular face there yourself (I'm only half kidding). I also admire honesty in all its forms, but to voluntarily admit the information that your book has been rejected by several successful publishers - who have all been well-schooled in their trade and know what they're doing - is akin to standing in the marketplace informing all and sundry that everyone else who's walked past thinks your wares (perfume, bootleg DVD's, underpants) are shit. Have you ever watched a guy in a nightclub wander around as soon as the slow dances start and ask every girl - starting with the best looking, of course - for a dance? By the time he gets to girl no. 10, there's no way in the world she's going to say, "Yes," even if she fancies him. For a start off she knows she's his 10th choice, she's also aware that everyone else knows she's his 10th choice, and she also knows that by now everyone else is taking the piss out of him. Would Simon Cowell take on a band simply because Sharon Osbourne had rejected them outright? I don't think so.

Owwww, Karl that was a little harsh. This is the guys dream, don't crush it. Bryant, If it feels right - you go for it. But, keep us informed of the out come. Hopefully we will all have egg on our faces and you will come out of it known n recognised. Go for it mate...