Why do you believe the quality of writing on ABCtales has gone downhill?

I don't think that at all ...but then again I don't have a single beret, pair of tights or quill to affirm the artistic validity of my opinion, amidst my possessions. jude visit my boring website http://www.judesworld.net

Juliet, PLEASE don't think that everyone shares these sentiments! There are always going to be those who feel that X was better 'back in the day'; it's seldom ever the case, but as in most things, people feel uncomfortable with change of any sort, especially if it threatens their 'ownership' of the site. As it were. I for one think we have some spectacular writers amongst the new bunch, which can only add to the already illustrious oldies who've been posting their work for years. If there's one thing I've learned during my sometimes contentious 'life' on this site, it's to not take comments -too- personally. There will always be differences of opinion! Jude, I have a beret you can borrow, but my tights are starting to get runs in them. Maybe some multi-coloured striped socks, instead?

I know for sure that one of those comments referenced above is my own, as Juliet emailed me on the matter. At no point have I attributed the lower quality of writing to new members. The quality has dropped for me due to members that I really liked ceasing to post or posting less. And, as I said in my reply to Juliet, I'm speaking here as a reader - I'm not for a moment suggesting I'm any better than anyone else. I used to print loads of stories off ABC to read in my own time. I'd eagerly wait for Drew's next offering, or Ferg's or Liana's (in her various guises). I loved the 'Oy Vey' series by Styx. I still read over that stuff now. These days I print off little. It's not to say the writing's crap, it's just a lot doesn't appeal to me personally. I still love BBF, Spack and Rokkit's respective poetry, and that of Yutka when she's around, (mad)Dan's been a joy over the past couple of months....I could go on. But overall, I think we've lost a lot of talent that I PERSONALLY enjoyed. For the record, I'm not even a long timer, I've only been here a year or so. I don't set out to upset anyone, but I will not be held accountable for damaging the frail egos of a few people who I don't know, and who, outside of the limited context of this site, shouldn't give a superc**t what I think. I've taken praise and criticism of my own writing. I am not a gifted writer, but I've written one or two things that I think are good enough to present on ABC. People like them or they don't. It's nice if they do - it's a bit sad if they don't, but it just means I need to do better / give up / not care. I don't hold them accountable for making me feel bad because they don't like my writing. I remind you that I have criticised no-one individually on their writing. I will not be made to feel guilty for having an opinion. Irrational reactions to minor comments are not my forte....mostly. Ben www.thedevilbetweenus.com

I too miss Ferg and Pesky and Fish's posts and writing. There is still a lot of excellent work on this site and being added all the time. My own writing may not be the best but it has it's strong moments and I have a smashing super**** and a nice pair of boobs!! jude visit my boring website http://www.judesworld.net

I am not a long timer, but I do reckon the quality of writing, or maybe just my personal interest wanes from week to week. Always comes back up again though. The past few weeks I have not bothered to post on any thread cos the constant sniping is so bloody repetitive. Its boring. And to my shame it makes me not want to read stuff. I know that’s not right, but... I don’t always like everyone's writing, and I don’t think that every member that is considered 'good' on here consistently posts good stuff. I reckon, knowing a few of the people who are considered 'good' that they know that. There is also some recent stunning writing on here. Anyway, death of the author, bring on death of the author. All be quiet, now I will be. Kind of defeats the object of a discussion forum though I suppose. Span

I'm a new boy and something of an old-timer. I, too, miss Liana, Fish, Robert and many more of the old crowd. I do think the focus of the site has changed somewhat, but I wouldn't say the overall quality of the writing is that much different. It's a mixed bag as always. If you want to buy my book, visit my blog: http://whatisthisstrangeplace.blogspot.com/

I’m seeing roughly the same number of quality posts, but what I’m also seeing is an increased number of posts that I consider to be of low quality. This could be defined as bringing the “overall” quality down, but it can’t entirely be attributed to new members, as not nearly all new members are posting bad stories/poems, and not nearly all posts by established members are great. I have my own personal sub-set of ABC members and yes, most everyone active in the forums is in that sub-set. The reason: they’re more than just a “submitted by” name in red. Stories are just better to me when I feel I know something, however limited, about the author.

I don'\t think the quality has gone downhill (although some very good people doin't post anymore), but a lot more stuff is flagged these days than used to be, and the quality has not gone uphill either, so the general quality of what's flagged on the discuss writing forum has necessarily dropped. I hope that makes sense. This has led to a change in atmosphere. When I joined abctales there was a sense of excellence (you might say, elitism) that isn't there anymore. I miss that.

From a Vol-Ed perspective, we were asked to flag up anything that caught our eye, whether 'excellent' or 'good' or 'could be excellent if tweaked here-and-here'. There is, of course, so much good work out there (and some not-so-good) that it would be impossible to flag everything that is excellent or everything that could stand some improvement, but there is also a drive to help those writers who are not yet on the cutting edge of writing to improve, by pointing out their stuff. This may be less, er, 'elitist' to some, but insofar as I'm concerned, I don't see a problem with it. Not everyone is born a brilliant writer; most people need help! I don't know where Fergal and Fish went off to; I guess I missed that... did they disappear, too?

Fish swims in from time to time and I see Ferg logged in as well but maybe they're just busy! jude visit my boring website http://www.judesworld.net

I don't feel the quality has gone down at all. There's always something here that's interesting to read.

I should point out, I don't think it's a bad thing that more work is flagged, it is a good thing, but it changes what the site is a bit, and there's no way around that. I don't know, but I hope that Fergal and Fish are off writing novels that I might one day get to read.

Liana left? ... Oh, dear.

Nah Don...she is still around...just a bit quiet... good to see you as well! jude visit my boring website http://www.judesworld.net

I'm also a newish member and personally it doesn't really bother me if people on the site enjoy my writing or not, though it's nice if they do. My subject matter might just not be to everyones taste. I write because I enjoy it and have been complimented by many different people, I'm here to get better, if I was good enough I'd be getting paid shit loads for the pleasure and wouldn't have the time to pass judgement on others. nobody

Quality as defined by the quotient of (good posts / bad post) has gone down, but I still feel the number of good posts has not decreased – the number of bad posts has gone up. But this is all subjective, and I surely haven’t been the best judge of quality in the past. Like Jack, I can always find something worth reading (often times his poems).

Yay! Liana's not gone! And Jude is still here! :-))))

Of course what is good and what is bad is subjective, unless anyone is sat on some huge book deal of course. Otherwise we're all still trying to improve aren't we? At least I know I am. nobody

I think ABCtales might have changed slightly but it's just as important to recognise that people change. I don't post poems on ABCtales anymore because my approach to writing is different to when I did and the things I'm looking for from a writing site are different. Others who left may be in the same position. I don't feel bitter or angry about this situation and I'm not short of things to do with the limited amount of stuff I manage to write these days. Ultimately the role of the ABCtales team is to provide and promote a range of functions, and offer some support and guidance. Beyond that the site is the sum of its parts.

So what? You've outgrown abc tales, then pray tell, where is the action at? nobody

I haven't outgrown ABCtales. My ideas about writing and what I want to do with my writing are different to what they were five years ago but that doesn't mean I'm any better at it. When I did post a lot of stuff on here, it was one of the only outlets I knew about for my writing, now - partly through being involved with ABCtales - I know about lots of places where I can send stuff to magazines or perform live or post online. ABCtales (or people I met through ABCtales) helped to open these doors for me (or at least show me where the doors were), which I think is one of the best things the site has done for lots of different people over the years.

Since ABC tales was first started, some 6 years ago, computer lliteracy has become the norm, whereas, in its infancy, the minority rather than the majority, used a computer as an everyday part of their life. I think what some of the more 'mature' members of ABC need to grasp ( or whichever way they would describe themselves) is that life has moved on since then. Now the availabilty of the internet etc. etc. is in everyone's domain, young, not so young and the definitely not so young. Perhaps ABC should recognise this as a kind of 'coming of age' and afford its members the tolerance and respect that each and every one of them surely deserve by hearing their voice - and accepting the fact that everyone has the right to be heard, whether on ABC tales or on a soap-box in Hyde Park.

There are more people attracted to the site. What this is down to I've NO IDEA...**cough** **splutter** if you find a piece that, in your opinion, is low in quality then I do believe there is a forum in which to express your opinion(s) That's why we're here - ideally. There have been changes, one of which is the publicity that authors are rewarded for their publications. This is really encouraging! There are alot of writers who are living, learning and continuing to write and are receiving the feedback that they need in order to improve. Writers have never had it so good. Hear my music: http://music.download.com/3600-5-100795586.html

http://www.freewebs.com/michaeljamestreacy/index.htm Ain't no problem with ABCTales... just ongoing problems with the folks wot use it.

bukharinwasmyfavouritebolshevik I didn't mean my post to come across as insulting as it did, I apologise. I mean that, I checked your site out a while ago and wouldn't for a minute think someone so involved with community projects would be so arrogant. I just thought you were saying there was a place where abc tales writers went once they had mastered the arts and wanted a piece of the action. I would honestly like to know of other outlets. You write poetry I write not so short stories and wondered if there was other places I could as well as this site I could place my work. nobody

Hello there, Just to let those who wondered where I was know, that I am still here, and still come on (hence jude seeing my name on the who's online bit), but since being an editor when I do get time to come on I'm always reading through new pieces put onto the site rather than on the forums for my fear of getting told off! Which is sad for me - because I loved being on the forums and getting into all those silly scraps and scrapes and fancifuly whimsy. But good, because it means I read nearly everything that comes on here. As for the standard of writing, I guess as with anything, it's down to personal taste. So, for some, their favourite writers aren't posting, and for others they are. Easy as. I miss Andrew's writing, I would get excited if a new Enzo story appeared - there seems to be less short stories now - lots of novel extracts, but mostly there is a wide mix. Some excellent poetry. Dan - yes I was also writing a novel during this time, and I have just got an agent and am getting a final draft together. Wahooooo. I hope to be on the forums more now - I do miss the random waffle, and haven't been randomly waffling for about 6 weeks now.

Wahoooooo indeed.

I don't think the standard of writing has gone down in the sense that lots of excellent writing still appears daily and I rarely go into editing mode without finding something worthy of cherry-picking, although often someone else has found it first! Bear in mind that, if someone has got themselves a publishing deal, (and it does happen very occasionally) they can no longer keep material on a free site which they are trying to sell in bookstores, so we do lose some good writing that way, but that's a site success not failure. I think it's the sheer volume of work presenting itself - the site doesn't vet for quality, only legality, editors tastes are subjective so maybe some good writing gets missed if it simply doesn't appeal to the editor first reading it - and I'd like to thank Juliet (and lots of others) for sticking their neck on the line in the "Discuss writing from ABCTales" forum and highlighting things they've enjoyed.

Two very good things have come from this thread... I was reminded to reread Styxbrooks "Oy Vey" work and revisited the sidesplitting funniness of them... and had yet another exploration of Ben's work which really is excellent. The Lord draws good from the not-so-good jude visit my boring website http://www.judesworld.net

What an interesting thread to come back to! I've been going far too fast downhill for a week on hard packed ice (early morning) and then slush - and the sheer thrill and danger of it all always manages to put life back into perspective. I am sorry that a number of the excellent authors of old are not around so much - but I do think that there are some fantastic writers on here now - and Juliet is very much one of those. I think that what she's done with her novel is brave and incredibly interesting - it's like watching a reality TV show as her book evolves and I await each new edit with great interest. There are many others I could mention - and I've re-read Tom Saunder's excellent book of short stories over the week I've been away and thoroughly enjoyed them. Review to come soon and you'll be able to buy it from the link on the front page. Writers do evolve and we are a stepping stone. We are there at the beginning and I hope that we're a very positive influence on many many people - the proof of that should appear in the work that some of the 'early' members now produce. I don't think we're in a slump at all - we've always had good spells of writing appearing and then some not so good - but we have always maintained that we are here for everyone - regardless of their stage of progression - and we will continue to be so.

I don't think the standard has gone downhill - sure, more stuff gets flagged in the forums, but I think that's a good thing. Some of it isn't to my taste, but that's not to say others don't enjoy it, and besides, for me, abctales has always been about less of a finished showcase, and more of an opportunity for critique and feedback. In that sense, I think it's got better - people seem much more open to suggestions for improvement, particularly the newer members, and I really enjoy reading the debates on the writing forum. Abctales has been a massive support to my writing over the past four or so years. (I think that's how long it's been!) I rarely post prose anymore because most of my effort is going into finishing my novel, but just coming on site and reading lots of different pieces is very inspiring.

Thanks, Tony. I'm glad there are no broken bones - after the skiing not the reading. If you want to buy my book, visit my blog: http://whatisthisstrangeplace.blogspot.com/

I think that ABCtales is just as good as the day I signed up (granted that wasn't very long ago). I think that this is one of the best sites for writing. My friends always ask me why I don't join an American site. It's because the writing here is so good. The people are so nice, and it can really help you. I mean look at me, in just 5 months my writing has improved so much. I mean when I look back at my first pieces I can't believe I ever even thought of putting it up. But I did, and you guys were okay with it. Granted I'm not that great compared to the real big names up here, but I have definently improved, thanks to all of ya'll. So people may critisize that ABCtales may be going downhill, but I don't care, I know otherwise. It's still as fun, intersting, and as helpful as the day I first joined. :)

Thankyou Mike - that's the kind of comment I love to read!

Oh what a fillip! Two mentions from fellow writers I admire - and I got my bleedin' computer to finally work. Forget XP - Windows 98 is the way forward. And - I start a creative writing course at The Mary Ward centre tonight. It's for writers like me who've been writing for a long time, but are stuck in some way. The 1st third of the course is learning to become disciplined: setting a time of the day etc., the 2nd third is learning to take chances with your writing: I don't think I'll have a problem with that, the final 3rd is how to get published. I want a 4th third: how to make oodles of dosh from one's writing.

Good luck styxbroox! A friend of mine did that course about a year ago and reckons it did her the world of good and has since been trying to push me onto it. Nearly succeeded at the beginning of the year but I couldn't make up my mind which course to enrol on. Then I spent the money.

I quite fancy the "Write a Novel" course at Mary Ward.... this is because I have no plot, no characters, no motivation, no pen, limited talent and a shit-stack of resentments. I think I may need a few more tools in my tool-box to pull the novel thing off.... also I can't spell, punctuate or grammaticate good luck styx jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

I would just like to say that if it hadn't been for abctales, I probably would never have tried my hand at writing properly. It is one thing to write fiction or poetry in the knowledge that I am the only person who will read it, it is quite another to post items for others to read and comment upon should they wish. I also like the fact that members here don't just say "well, iceman's latest piece sucked big balls" they would say why and this positive criticism is then very helpful. In the past I have had some cherry picks and yes, I did feel pleased that my pieces were cherry picked -- this built up confidence which is always a good thing in a writer. So far as posting on abctales, I tend to concentrate more on posting stuff in Talk as opposed to new contributions for others to read -- this is mainly because I don't really have that much time to spend on writing new fiction just right now.

As I posted on a thread which no one responded to: harrumph! Because of an excercise we were given by the tutor, I have a new story bubbling away. That for me is the essence of going to one of these courses, it gives me the kick up the arse I need. But I have to 'perform' my piece in a couple of weeks, and I'm scared. And I used to perform on stage on a nightly basis. But I won't have drums and cymbals shielding me from the audience. But really I'm a tarty old actress who'd love to wow them with a Charles Laughton style performance. Oh yes, I'm the only male in a class of 10. I feel like that sleazy Fast Show character, "Me - the 5th Earl of Wimbaugh - at the dead of night - at an all girl's college!" He then disappears into the shadows. And Jude: Stop with the put downs; of yourself. Visit my boring website etc.. You're a very talented poet shaddup! And if you're worried about spelling, grammar etc, write everything on the word processor, and as long as it's logged into English United Kingdom, it points out your mistakes. But you know that anyway. Mine's still on the American English and I get vaguely smug; no I get very smug okay! When it tells me I've spelt colour wrong. The reason I haven't logged anymore My Life Oy Vay recently, is that, when I was down in Oxford life was very narrow which gave me a broader canvas. Now that that I'm back in the 'smoke' there's is almost too much to write about. Oh yeh and I've been pissed.

Styxbroox, I woulda done your post but I prefer that no-one outside my immediate family and the taxman know what my full name is. That's way too many people, already.

Yeah I started having a go styxbroox. I got as far as "weird Stan" and didn't know what to do with the letters I had left, or at least couldn't come up with anything cool for weird Stan to do. Maybe I should just write a story about him anyway.

When did 'way too many people' replace 'far too many' in the English language. And while we're on the subject when did 'I met with someone' supplant 'I met someone'. The Americans are adept at shortening words: witness on their cop shows the 'perp' for perpetrator and 'vic' for the victim. C'mn u ynks, Lts kp rl. N ths way wl b grnt n at 1 nutha as we uz d 2.

I don't speak Received Pronunciation; I speak good old West Coast Amerenglish. We don't get hung up on preserving the Olde Mothere Tongue for posterity. Why should 'far' be considered better than 'way' for expressing a quantity? What's wrong with abbreviating long words to shorter, still recognisable ones? If you're going to be pedantic about such things, styxbroox, you shouldn't begin a sentence with 'and', and you need to use question marks when asking questions. It's all relative, innit buddy? Harrumph.

There is nothing more exciting than watching two Brits argue about the English language. Well, maybe watching paint dry is better.

She'll never be a Brit as long as she has a hole in her arse.

A bowling ball then?

Since when have I been a Brit, RD? You know damn well I'd never make a good Brit; my teeth are too nice.

Love you, Archergirl! I'm reminded of that great episode of The Simpsons where the Orthodontist gets out his book of The Great Book Of Bad English Teeth. Or some such. And that in a snatch somes up the difference between us. The Americans do do irony.

I guessed there was one part of you that is nice. I bet you had to buy it though!

AG, you became a Brit when you moved to Great Britain and started talking smack about the US. You ain't sitti'n on the fence young lady...you made your bed, now you're stuck with those dirty sheets. What's the old saying..."America-love it or leave it"!