Irony

Alanis Morrisette didn't get it.

How ironic.

I thought she was Canadian

I think this whole 'Yanks don't get irony' idea comes from the fact that most of our sitcoms which we shamelessly prostitute to the rest of the world engage in a certain kind of humour which is as far from ironic as one can get; more like 'hyuck hyuck' humour. I would also venture to guess that Yank humour, like humour anywhere, is a regional thing, and that irony is seen more on the coasts rather than the 'heartland', or perhaps more in metropolitan areas, where one needs a certain amount of cynicism to survive, than in rural areas. Having said that, our Fearless Leader came from a well-heeled, well-educated quais-coastal family (if one includes the mansion in Hyannisport), and the man wouldn't understand irony even if Condi explained it to him.

Having recently spent a lot of time with Americans, they seem to get it fine (although they were unnusually smart americans, I'm picky who I spend my time with). I have noticed that when brits refer to irony they generally mean situational irony but when americans refer to irony they more often mean verbal irony, which most brits would slap under the label of sarcasm.

good article http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,985375,00.html

'they were unusually smart Americans'. Oh, I love the underlying assumptions in this statement. I may as well say, "I've spent a lot of time lately with unusually dentally-advantaged Brits".

eh?

That article's worth a read. I read it. It was worth it. People who claim Americans don't have irony don't understand what irony is. It's more that Americans don't get British humour. I don't know exactly why, but I have a vague idea. Nearly all American sitcoms seem to be about absurdly affluent and blandly attractive, witty people, who employ irony as a weapon. Their jokes make them look cool, and generally see them through even the embarrassing pratfall moments with some grace and dignity. Ross has monkeypoo on his face! But he makes a withering comment, and thus redeems himself. So irony, for Americans, is a tool for survival. It's on humanity's side, against the trouble life throws at you. Now, take Red Dwarf as a typical example of a British comedy. It's about slobs and no-hopers. The only 'good-looking' member of the cast is utterly shallow. None of them are 'witty', so much as bitterly cutting. Every joke conceals some kind of misery. Most of the irony is at the characters' expense. Rimmer is so excited about being alive again, after millions of years, he immediately blows himself up. In 'Back To Reality', it turns out their entire lives up til then have been a game, and that they scored 4%. Lister takes a moment to look at what another bunch of players are doing and sees an alternative Lister as a gun-toting action hero who manages to get the girl while wild guitar music plays. No surprise that the American version of Red Dward never got beyond a pilot - and that they cleaned up Lister's slobbiness. British comedy employs irony to make fun of humanity. We're screw-ups, not dignified creatures doing our best in the face of adversity. That's the kind of attitude the American culture doesn't get.

Why then, did The Office do so well in America that Ricky Gervais was invited to guest on The Simpsons? Not only is The Office quintessentially British humour, but it contains a ton of cultural references (like David Brent's Harry Enfield impression or the cameos of Bubble out of Big Brother and Howard from the Halifax ads) that rely on a knowledge of UK TV. And Jon, Red Dwarf was nerd-bait crap - hence no world-busting fame.

Red Dwarf's great. Only pretentious-nerds-in-denial hate it, because they notice that none of the sci-fi makes sense and it annoys them. I have no idea why The Office did so well, seeing as the American version, despite being the same script, is utter rubbish. I don't even know how 'well' it did. Red Dwarf does *have* a following in America, as does a lot of British comedy - it just isn't mainstream. Is The Office being repeated/shown in batches of three every night on Comedy Central?

I shan't challenge the 'pretentious-nerd-in-denial' label, Jon. You know full-well that's accurate.

Love thyself, Tim - then you can enjoy Red Dwarf (and cry foul at the continuity errors,) without feeling dirty.

Having spent a lot of time in the US over the last few years I have to say that irony apart, Americans in general have more in common with the German sense of humour than the British, ie. it's hard to find. They tend to live their lives on more of a superficial level than Brits. They're far more patriotic than Brits, and far more religious. They take much of life far too seriously.

And hence, they take themselves, and mankind in general, too seriously? So humour poking fun at humanity itself wouldn't go down as well?

Crikey, this argument gets shiftier as it goes along... Americans, in general, have FAR better senses of humour than Germans, although it may be that German humour is so-o-o very dry that laughter withers. The humour that baffles me the most is Japanese. I mean, are their shows *actually* supposed to be funny?

I am compelled to announce that two of the funniest people I know are American. This humour has nothing much to do with TV sitcoms (I'd worry if people thought these were some kind of complete cultural barometer or something..) but everything to do with everyday life (and other worlds, obviously) and their witty approach to all of it.

PS. Forgot to mention that the two aforementioned friends are both deftly ironic and humorously self-deprecating.

Doesn't really counter the theory I put forward. If people are witty, deftly ironic and humorously self-deprecating, then again, it's irony as weapon and ally, as opposed to savage truth serum.

I wasn't meaning to counter it, just to complicate it slightly, I admit... Your theory is interesting. We used to teach a unit on sitcom as part of a Media Studies A' level I taught and getting the students to analyse the humour was a fascinating challenge. None of the teenagers I taught ever found 'The Office' funny - I wondered if this was experiential (hardly any had ever worked in an office) or generational or what. It wasn't to do with national identity, anyway, as they were all British (from different cultural backgrounds). All of them found 'Only Fools and Horses' hilarious, though none of them had (to my knowledge) been wheelers/dealers either... hmm..

AG, EVERYONE has a better sense of humour than the Germans, I said Americans 'have more in common with Germans than Brits', and that is true, I believe.

Have you never watched The Simpsons? I see they're hoping to make an American version of Saxondale. Don't tell me they don't 'do' irony.

Hasn't anyone seen 'Curb Your Enthusiasm'? I'd say that was all about the gap between what happens and what might be expected, or about the difference between what you say and what you mean... What about Bill Hicks? Or for that matter Lenny Bruce? Or Richard Pryor? Or Chris Rock? I could go on and on... I wonder if what people find difficult about 'British' humour is its sheer, petty miserable nastiness? To an extent, the majority of 'British' humour involves putting someone or something in their place, or elevating one person, group or thing over another. If you really want to actually carry out this debate, it's probably easier to try to work out how things work. What are the fair targets of 'British' humour, how are they approached, what crosses a line? I'm thinking of the way George Orwell dissected the art of Donald McGill and seaside postcards in general, itemising the recurring figures and situations and the approach the humour took to them. In 'British' humour, there is a great obsession with station. Characters are below the station they wish to occupy and are getting one over on those above, or they're trying desperately to join the echelons above them, or being ridiculed for their attempts to change their position in any way. In 'Terry and June' we laugh at Terry's attempts to impress the boss. In 'The Office' we laugh at Brent's pretension, at believing himself to be above himself. In something like 'Keeping Up Appearances' we are laughing at the snobbish pretension of Hyacinth, in her attempt to appear more cultured and refined than she is. In many cases, I think, the key to British humour is class, or percieved class, or at the very least an implied solidarity to a particular group, tradition or way of life. I think that this dimension may be a defining factor of 'British' comedy. I suppose irony only works if you're aware of the gap between what is said and what is meant, or that what someone expects and what happens is actually there. I classic 'British' comedy situation would have a man of working class origin desperately trying to impress a more refined woman from a more previledged background. He tries, with ha-ha-hilarious results, to take her to art galleries, wine and dine her, tries to get his family to act with posh manners, gives up his real interests. At the climax, the woman runs off with a proper bloke, because of course, as we all know, a posh bird likes a bit of rough. Our protagonist is therefore punished for his pretension and also his attempt to 'act up' into a new social role. This is ironic because, despite his best efforts and expectations, he fails in his attempt to be more than he is. The above only works, though, if the audience is in on the joke, and can recognise why all of the other characters are less than impressed by our protagonists efforts. If they aren't in on the joke, the rest of the characters are just being really, really nasty to our protagonist. Does this shed any light? Cheers, Mark

:) wrong thread. try again i will

Most folks I know think British humor is boring. I think some British humor is boring. I think most American television humor is boring. German humor is very boring. I'm a big fan of Costa Rican humor. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Oh, I love Little Britain. I don't think it's boring at all; for me, it tips the scale toward being 'awful', but hilariously so. It definitely pushes the boundaries of 'taste', whatever that is, but like Mr. Creosote's vomit scene in Python's Meaning of Life, I can't help but laugh, horrified. . Still, I think Mark hits the nail on the head as far as 'British' humour goes; it is always taking the mick out of someone else. Curb Your Enthusiasm is also funny in that 'awful' sense; although this, like The Office, has to do with the groaning one does in the face of such awkward and horrible people: I'm sure we all know people like these in 'real life'! That's why it's funny. Oddly, though, I've NEVER liked The Simpsons, not from day one. I find it tedious and painful. But I never did really like American comedy much, ironic or not. I agree with Peps about cultural biases on humour. What is funny to some simply isn't to others, and as he said, 'The Germans' is so general an assumption that it must by default be inaccurate. I never found Thai humour to be particularly funny, although I could appreciate that there was a joke in there, somewhere. It's all about cultural referencing.

Most of British sitcoms just aren't funny at all, and I don't remember any of them being so. Alright. some were. If you count Fawlty Towers and maybe there's another one. But then there's a difference between 'funny' and 'amusing'. Maybe the entire canon of Brit coms are just a particularly savage irony on the state of the nation, and aren't supposed to be funny. I mean .... On The Buses, Terry and June, Allo Allo .. it's too painful to try to recall any more. As for today's lot, well I don't think they're funny. Grotesque (Litlte Britain, League of Gentlemen) or grotesque and boring (Catherine Tate : do thay actually PAY that woman?) but not funny. But I used to fund some American sitcoms funny, actually funny as opposed to amusing, eg Taxi, Cheers. Right now though, I'd like to know who the "attractive" one in Red Dwarf was.

Yea, Green Wing is good. But its not funny. There is this definition problem. I like it, it's original, off beat, well written, b ut it doesn't make me laugh. I can smile faintly at it, or even smile wryly, but not laugh. And I define 'funny' as something that makes me laugh. So therefore it's not funny. Ditto Scrubs. Never seen Spaced. I HAVE laughed at the Office, so ergo it's funny. But then I think that many of the recent 'comedies' aren't meant to be funny. They stopped being funny when they started to be 'observational',

Anyone remember Soap? Made me laugh a lot. I remember Bert being amazed that his son (Billy Crystal?) could read the mind of his ventroliquist's dummy. I think it was his son anyway. Who's butler was Benson?

I find it amusing that so many people believe Germans lack a sense of humor. How do you know? There are no German comics doing stand up routines in English and there are no German sitcoms or films in English of which I am aware. That doesn't mean they don't exist. My experiences in Germany suggest that much of German humor is physical. They like slap-stick schtick. Of course, there might be a lot of sophisticated humor as well, but I'll never know because I don't understand German well enough. I would be hard pressed to find more than a few British comedy shows that I would describe as funny. Monty Python and Fawtly Towers, of course, but the 'disgusting low-life genre' like Little Britain and League of Gentlemen escape me entirely. I find them unwatchable. Having forced myself to watch The Office, against my better judgement, just to see what the fuss is all about, I can safely say that I still don't find it very funny. Some shows are mildly amusing, like Open All Hours and others of that ilk. I think the funniest British show on TV is "Top Gear" with Jeremy Clarkson. Yes, I know it is about automobiles, but it is far funnier than the sitcoms I've seen. On the other hand, British stand up comedy is often magnificent. I could listen to that for hours on end. Most American sitcoms are crap, but that's not saying anything insightful. 90% of most things is crap. The best, however, are magnificent: Fraser comes to mind. The writing on that show was amazing. The old Honeymooners show with Jackie Gleason was great, as was The Mary Tyler Moore show and many others. Friends always struck me as trivial and uninteresting, as did Seinfeld. Just a bunch of yuppie scum with too much free time, though the wacky neighbor in Seinfeld was a great character. Dharma and Greg, while not uproariously funny, is a decent show, mostly because of the way it depicts the relationship between the married couple. I wrote a review of that show a few years back which is on this site. Sex in the City, by contrast, was stupid and unfunny. As for the general subject of irony, and I've said this many times: What Brits call irony is often just sarcasm that backfired. Americans understand irony rather well, they just don't find it funny, especially when most of what the world passes off as irony is in fact just sarcasm mis-spelled. As for the Simpsons, the first time I tried to watch that show I hated it. It seemed like another attempt to glorify stupidity. When I lived in London, however, I watched it a lot because there was so little else worth watching, and I came to like it. It's not my favorite show, but it's very well done. South Park, however, is a bit like Little Britain. Not for me. "You don't need the light of the Lord to read the handwriting on the wall." Copies of Warsaw Tales available through www.new-ink.org

Sam Cooke releases a song called 'A change is gonna come' and a few weeks later is shot dead. Otis Redding records a song called 'Sitting on the dock of the bay' and a short while later ends up in it. God you Yanks, when you do irony you just have to go to extremes!

When I watch TV or go to see comics I worry if I have a sense of humour at all. In fact I was recently so worried, that I asked some friends and they were very confused by the question as in their eyes I am laughing all the time. I think it might be something to do with laughter being a contrived and played for thing. I am really interested in the role of laughter in plays. Playwrights like Anthony Neilson and Pinter who make you really uncomfy and then allow moments, which might be construed as being funny but no one is really sure whether or not to laugh but they do, as it is a release from fear and nervousness. Bit of a tangent. Not really to do with irony at all. Sorry Pepsoid. Very bored at work. Span

Great article. Go Zoe W. I do think irony - or at least post-modern irony - is basically a shackle that makes it harder, or scarier, to say anything sincerely. You almost always seem like a tosser, trying to be genuine, and then it's so fucking easy to seem post-modern and cool by wrapping everything you say in anti-meaning. So inevitably we - I - usually choose the easy option. Joe