"Acceptable Racism

Yeah... I know someone who makes the same remark. I think he bases it on his experiences of holidaying in France. He says 'The French just don't like the English'. I haven't had that problem myself, which makes me wonder what HIS problem is. Maybe his attitude gets in the way. I don't think ANY type of racism is acceptable. But here's another thought: is it acceptable for a Frenchman to make derogatory comments about the French? Is that racism?

French girls have beautiful lips. if a minority wants equality and an end to persecution it forms a pressure group. The French and the English are TOO 'ARD for all that. I can't imagine the french getting too upset at a few jibes from the engleesh pigs There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennet

Look at the way gypsies are reffered to. Scruffiness = comparrison to gypo constantly in the media, mostly TV while the presenters chuckle away at their guests wit. For years pubs have had signs in the windows saying no travellers, stick any other racial group there and it would be outrage. How about the working classes, they're free game and the undiagnosed mentally ill clogging up our prison system. Or ginger haired people, acne riddled people. Maybe they're not races per se but some area of society are always up for mockery. nobody

I think we should perhaps separate jingoism from racism. Insulting the French seems to me a lot more in the spirit of Jingoism - "our country's better than yours." I don't find it particular pleasant, but it's not the same as judging people by their ethnic background. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

I think the fact we historically have never cosnidered the french subhuman (Hartlepool excepted) and never had a whole industry devoted to enslaving them has a lot to do with it.

I had a dream the other night that, aswell as a sex change, you could also get a race change. 90% of the teenage population in the country became black. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennet

An interesting point, Jack. Jingoism is often used as a mask for racism, though. We have a local brewery which had to withdraw much of it's advertising for a fundamentally 'British' brand of beer (Spitfire Ale - you can see where they're coming from!) because of references to 'krauts' and 'frogs'; they were adamant these were not racist insults. BNP supporters use the same terms, though. I think if you got an Englishman and a Frenchman, say, in a discussion about why their own country is the better one, then racist impulses wouldn't be too far below the surface. Once you'd dealt with matters of climate, food, scenery, etc., you'd eventually get onto culture. So, is criticism of a culture racist?

Racism is related to power. If I as a white person call a person from Africa a nigger, I am pointing out the power imbalance or history of power imbalance between us. The word 'nigger' has the weight of a history of violence, oppression and bigotry behind it, which I point out if I use it. If the person from Africa calls me a honky, I am not bothered, because there is no weight behind it. I know, deep down, that I still have the power that centuries of dominance has confered upon me. Same with France. The UK and France have always been about equal, so no great weight exists in any epithets that I can think of. It's always worth looking at power and history regarding racism. Cheers, Mark

A Saxon, a Norman, and a Pict walk into a bar..........

I agree with Mark and Dan to a certain extent, but I also think that, when it comes down to it, if you're the person experiencing racism, or any kind of ism first hand, then history makes no difference whatsoever. 'I know, deep down, that I still have the power that centuries of dominance has confered upon me.'... but in a situation where you have no actual power - if someone, or a group are threatening you, that deep down power means nothing. Also, for me, I know my ancestors were farmers and shepherds and stuff, so despite my whiteness I feel very removed from the whole process of power games of the past. I used to feel very guilty and accept any kind of accusation coming my way, but, I didn't actually do anything. I once experienced something where I was the only white person on a carriage on the tube. I hadn't noticed this until one of the men on the carriage was handing out leaflets about whites being utter scum - something which I concurred with, historically speaking. I was the only person on the carriage who was not given a leaflet and four men sitting near by me started stamping their feet slowly together. The fact that historically the leaflet was fairly accurate made not a jot of difference to me as I sat, alone and vulnerable, on this train. Any situation where someone is being harrassed, for whatever reason, is terrifying for that person, no matter have much power their ancestors had. Speaking as a ginger person here, one of the only groups many people feel it is okay to shout stuff out on a regular basis, particulary comments about the is it/isn't it colour of my pubic hair. Ha.

Ginger minge, eh? "Jack... re Jingoism Vs Racism... is that not perhaps splitting hairs? If we define Jingoism as being patriotic to the point of being insulting to other races, is there really a moral difference between this and "pure" racism?" Yes. For a start, jingoism isn't about being insulting to other races. 'The French' aren't a race. Jingoism is the same as 'We're better than you' on any level. You put that on a par with racism and you're effectively saying that rivalry among football fans is tantamount to racism too. If you tell people that any insult they direct at any group of people, in whatever spirit, is the same as racism, then a lot of them are going to shrug their shoulders and throw themselves in with the racists. There's no way round it - you've got to make the distinction between outright racism - which is a judgement based on ethnic background - and, say, valid criticism of different cultures, crude generalisations about other cultures and traditional rivalry. Otherwise you might as well admit that we're all racist from time to time, and that there's no point in fighting it. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

When the subject came up, my French teacher said, 'Oh yes it's true - the French don't like the English.' Oh. ~ www.fabulousmother.com

Well is it? Okay, I don't really want to know, it's just that your statement seemed to invite it. Most of the situations described are actually tribalism rather than racism, which is generally assumed to relate to, well, race, rather than nationality. The French and English have been sworn enemies for centuries and that won't change any time soon, though I suppose that , many people on both sides are completely indifferent to old scores. I disagree with Mark. Racism isn't about power per se at all. It may appear so partly because of the African/European realationship in the past 200years but many racial tensions are evident between races of equal 'power'. They can be divided on religious lines, political or any of several other criteria, but power isn't always an element.

I am shocked to discover that I actually agree with 'Mr. Hiding' on this. It's not necessarily power; it's 'difference', full stop. People load 'difference' with all sorts of reasons to dislike one another, but mostly it's that they're not-the-same. Tribalism is rife, even within our ostensibly non-tribal society. Fergal, I love ginger people, and never understood what the stigma was. In my next life I'm going to have ginger hair, and let it grow really, really long. It's just beautiful. I'd dye my hair ginger now, if I could, but my complexion wouldn't be able to handle it. My gran had very bright auburn hair; sadly I inherited reddish tints in otherwise normal brownish hair!

Oh, I disagree, Peps. I think ginger hair is lovely whatever the sex of the person. I've seen some stunning ginger men; oddly, though, they too seem to look even more stunning with long hair...and normally I prefer short-haired men!

I'm not sure that redheadism is so vilified in the States, at least, in my neck of the woods or when I was growing up, probably because where I grew up most racial slagging had to do with the white/Hispanic divide, so you were more likely to hear 'pinche gringo salado pendejo baboso' than 'ginger-haired tosser'. Do Yanks have a red-head epithet? Carrot-top, maybe? Definitely not 'ginger-haired tosser' as we don't use 'ginger' to describe a redhead (again, where I hail from), nor 'tosser'. I would never think of using hair colour as an epithet. 'Why,you...you...brown-haired maggot!' just doesn't sound right.

I'd love to be called a ginger haired tosser, unfortunately I have to settle for slaphead.

http://www.koopress.co.uk/speaking.htm pepsavoid, if you engaged brain before starting your threads you wouldn't end up having to backtrack nor print dictionary definitions to prove the point of others. Your original analogy is wrong anyway. You go from (presumeably) a white European slagging off other white Europeans to 'why doesn't the same guy slag off an entire continent?' That's simply stupid. What would have been of more interest and possibly more correct would have been to state that 'people in Morrocco don't slag off the Egyptians, do they?' But then, we don't know if they do or don't, do we? And that's why your analogy falls flat on its face, honky.

How about a new thread: 'Acceptable' pomposity? Or is this just friendly banter going on here?

http://www.koopress.co.uk/speaking.htm 'Acceptable Idiocy' more like.

'How about a new thread: 'Acceptable' pomposity?' Ha! Bang on, alan_b! Stormy could smugly debate with himself about how goshdanged clever he is. *chortles*

I think Mark's right on the power thing. It's not that racism from the less powerful directed at the more powerful isn't racism, it obviously is. It just doesn't matter. White vs Black racism - for example - has had (and it isolated cases still does have) an effect on whether or not Black people were regarded as human beings, and more recently on whether they had equal access to jobs, housing and public services. The same can be said for anti-Catholic prejudice and anti-Semitism. Racist jokes between groups of people of equal power can, particularly if several people are choosing to participate on equal times, make for a fairly enjoyable evening out. They can also be really annoying but I think the issue is more about human interraction than the racist content.

'Racist jokes between groups of people of equal power can, particularly if several people are choosing to participate on equal times, make for a fairly enjoyable evening out. They can also be really annoying but I think the issue is more about human interraction than the racist content.' I agree with this idea; I think the context must be considered, rather than blanketing everything as being acceptable/unacceptable, especially under the heading of 'humour'.

I agree, Peps. This is where offenders like to wheel out the tired old phrase 'political correctness', using it with the same contempt that they use when they say 'do-gooder'. I used to work in a place where PC was reviled. We had compulsory Diversity Awareness training, which was greatly resented by most of my colleagues. "Telling us what to think", etc. I suggested 'Why not just think about it as treating someone with the kind of respect you'd expect for yourself?' To which the response invariably was something along the lines of 'Oh, so I need to ask you first if you mind if I tell you a racist joke?' The opposite of which is assuming I don't mind, and telling it anyway. It's that assumption that gets me. In my last job, the sexism was astonishing: men grabbing women's arses, talking about tits, discussing shagging techniques, etc. Some of the women, I know, found this embarrassing and offensive - yet went along with it for fear of being ostracised for having 'no sense of humour'.

I don't understand this site sometimes. I posted this, -twice-, and it disappeared. I'll try again.. I totally agree, Peps. Perhaps whether the jokes are 'funny' depends on whether you know the people you're with very VERY well and know it won't offend them? I wouldn't make Polish jokes in a group of Poles, for example (but then, does making jokes about Poles when there aren't any around any more acceptable? Hmmm....). I once had a fellow chef (actually the second in command) tell me 'jokingly' that he was going to rape me. Har, har. I was, at that time, the only female chef on the kitchen crew, and a very young twenty years old. I was absolutely mortified, and promptly went and told the general manager, who then chewed the arse off the chef. He swore he was joking, but frankly, there isn't any possible way something like that can be a 'joke', not with someone you don't know well, not in a work context, ever. 'Sensitivity and Diversity Training at Work' gets a bad rap, but it's a good alternative to having to listen to that kind of 'joking'.

"In my last job, the sexism was astonishing: men grabbing women's arses, talking about tits, discussing shagging techniques, etc. Some of the women, I know, found this embarrassing and offensive - yet went along with it for fear of being ostracised for having 'no sense of humour'." I've been in a workplace which had this kind of problem. It's a difficult one because the stuff was at a level where it might've been ok in a social situation, where those on receving end could either fight back (in a verbal sense) or chose not to spend their time with the people delivering the jokes. It's a different matter in the workplace when you can't opt out of the 'banter' without also opting out of the job.

Difficult one - my nationally-known company has a majority of female employees and is also trying to increase the proportion of ethnic minority staff and discover why many of them don't stay very long, so there's zero tolerance of racism and sexism, not to mention giving offence on grounds of religion or sexual orientation. Which is good, isn't it? Er, yes - but it's a virtual banter-free zone, and a bit sterile. Whereas in my last company, a much smaller one, the Asian and female staff were teased, but only to the extent that EVERONE was teased and it was an inclusive act - but it would have sounded a bit lame at a tribunal if anyone had claimed "constructive dismissal" on those grounds. Archergirl, you can be hairist with me at the next ABCTales event and run your artistic fingers through my verdant mop of ginger locks which is still not receding at all despite my great age. And even call me a "brown-haired maggot" if you wish.