Naughty steps, desertscapes, and self help on telly

I think Yan's right (although I do admit to having a bit of a "thing" for Birds Eye Chicken Pies). ~PEPS~ I've started a blog! And here it is! http://pepsoid.wordpress.com/

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Sat, 2006-10-28 10:14

#5

yan

I don't know why I said "mistaken" pre-occupation with excellence? The carlsberg export could have played a hand in that. "How clean is your house" is a guilty pleasure of mine. I can now de-scale my kettle with a mix of vinegar and lemon juice, and it's good to know that if I run out of kitchen cleaner I can always use biological washing powder instead. I give my mum cleaning advice!! lol. I used to watch the nanny progs and picked up some good tips. I believe the current moral zeitgeist demands more subtle measures than a quick clip across the ear 'ole or a smacked bum. We can get prosecuted for beating on a stranger, but we can't for battering our own offspring. Something a bit weird going on there. I'll be sure to check out that blog, peps ;) There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Sat, 2006-10-28 18:20

#6

OK, confession time... Ever since seeing Anthea Turner describe her most particular way of putting a duvet cover on a duvet on Celebrity Big Brother, I have always endeavoured to ""do it her way"... and I have never looked back! O the wiseness of the Anth... ~PEPS~ Here's a link to a blog wot I have started... http://pepsoid.wordpress.com/

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Sun, 2006-10-29 08:37

#7

Am interested in your comments about not drinking chardonnay/eating pies, and taking guilty pleasures, yan.. There are some implied (or explicit, depending on your perspective) beliefs about class/worth here about the 'help' shows... I notice the same in TV critics comments about these too. What's all that about then (expand!)? Also Peps, the 'confession' you make is fitting in the context of a chat about shows which make the private public. Though I'm not sure how healing your confession has been... Is confession healing? Is it enough to say/show 'stuff' in order to be healed? What is the importance of the audience's witnessing of this 'stuff'?

Sun, 2006-10-29 08:38

#8

Hmm, just trying to figure out how to make things bold oops

Sun, 2006-10-29 10:09

#9

Dr Jekyll

_I_ love watching Supernanny and HOTT. Supernanny Jo, especially, makes my willie tingle. However, there may be a dual purpose to most people's watching of such programmes, besides willie-tingling. One is not-so-secret gloating over inept parenting by others (and I do believe this is somewhat influenced by class), and the other is that we can pick up tips while we gloat. A type of instructional voyeurism, as it were.

Sun, 2006-10-29 10:23

#10

Dr Jekyll

What did you do to the typeface, galfreda?

Sun, 2006-10-29 10:59

#11

yan

Talking of typeface, is the type in the menu column to my right saturated, or do I feel especially lucid today. I can relate to Dr Jekyll's comment in that I used to watch 'What Not to Wear' because Trinny makes my willie tingle..lol. Not to mention the sight of women eyeing-up/grabbing each others bits and saying, "yar". Hmm...not sure how to expand on my original comment, Galfreda, but I'll add that people are willing to admit their weaknesses publicly for what I can only see as the opportunity to get their "15 minutes" on tv. Can't really expand any further because I've only just got out of bed and I haven't really thought about it. ;) There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Sun, 2006-10-29 11:00

#12

yan

wtf? There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Sun, 2006-10-29 11:04

#13

camus

There you go...all better.

Sun, 2006-10-29 12:06

#14

yan

http://www.manchester.ac.uk/press/title,13592,en.htm manchester uni experiment into whether tv progs (such as supernanny) can help parents. They normally publish results via rs but take yonks doing it. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Sun, 2006-10-29 18:04

#15

Thanks yan, that's interesting, I'd not seen that. Dr J, long time no read! Sorry to hear about your willy, maybe you should put some cream on it... Gx

Sun, 2006-10-29 19:39

#16

camilla

A book has been recently written about how childrens TV viewing interferes with their ability to comprehend other people.Ninety nine percent of communication is body language.TV viewing changes children physiologically which explains rise in ADHD and challenging behaviour."Helpful "shows take the place of the intimate network of relationships most don't have and wish they did.I mean with the longest working hours etc who has got the time? So no Granny to advise and more difficult children.

Sun, 2006-10-29 19:56

#17

yan

galfreda wrote: 'Dr J, long time no read! Sorry to hear about your willy, maybe you should put some cream on it...' lol Following on from Camilla (a little off-topic I know) but t.v. has helped my daughter with her eating. If she watches one of her fave characters (such as Charlie and Lola) eating certain foods that she'd otherwise not touch (such as grapefruit and coconut) she asks for it and relishes it. She watched a prog on Disovery Kids last night all about beans. Now, she loves her beans but can get bored of eating them (don't we all get bored of certain foods) but the prog refreshed her love for them. But there are other progs (such as Max & Ruby) that we barred her from watching because the main character, Max, is a little toddler toe-rag who grunts, constantly demands and plays little pranks on his big sister, all of which influenced my daughter negatively. I know of other parents who barred that same prog too. Some kid's progs are ill-thought out. I wonder what that book is called. Any idea, Camilla? There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Sun, 2006-10-29 20:26

#19

ggggareth

A friend of mine said that the other night, he threatened his 3 y.o. daughter that he was going to "burn her toy dog if she didn't go to sleep," and then (straight after)watched Supernanny while feeling really, really, REALLY guilty! Perhaps that's the real reason we watch these programmes: to makes us feel inadequate.

Sun, 2006-10-29 22:06

#20

yan

Thanks camilla. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Mon, 2006-10-30 13:42

#21

All TV is to make us feel inadequate! ~PEPS~ Here's a link to a blog wot I have started... http://pepsoid.wordpress.com/

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Mon, 2006-10-30 15:42

#22

Well, TV is produced amid the same set of discourses /belief systems that are in some way constructing/being constructed by us - it's in a dynamic relationship with us (or is it? are we just victim-dupe-sofa-heads?), innit... So why would 'it' have it in for us? Is 'public service broadcasting' just a plot to keep us in our places? Can TV ever be helpful? Or is its role just to emphasise our 'wants' (lacks and desires) in all kinds of ways... Do we watch the 'disclosure'/help programmes in order to bear witness (to trauma as well as to boring ol' everyday life) somehow? Help!

Mon, 2006-10-30 20:19

#23

Hmm, it is possible that my last post represented one step too far up my bum. Dr Jekyll, where are you when we need you?

Mon, 2006-10-30 21:10

#24

Dr Jekyll

_I_ am not up your bum. I was watching 'Honey, We're Killing the Kids'. Absolutely brill programme. It's refreshing to see that even the minging classes love their children somewhat.

Mon, 2006-10-30 21:57

#25

yan

I find it weird that parents can happily participate publicly in a prog that's created under that banner/title. I think tv's most definately dynamic. Logic dictates that stations aren't going to broadcast anything that they fear isn't going to be popular with the general public. They're after ratings and other such commercial benefits resulting from the prog's success, we're after reality tv (in all its guises). Mothers and father are increasingly sharing the task of bringing home the bread and mothers especially are devoting less time to raising children in favour of materialism. I believe alot of families are somewhat bringing the capitalist ethic home with them. I'm free-falling into tangent now so I'll stop here. But I would be interested to know what package these families benefit from (apart from the obvious 15 minutes of fame and practical help) by appearing on shows such as "Honey, we're killing the kids." It's not excactly an ideal admission in the face of social pressure and status. Not fogetting to mention the amazing advances in behavioural psychology/neurobiology during the past 40 years, we're living in an age now where science is attempting to demystify this exclusive language they've been using in an attempt to bring it to the masses....or something like that ;) out goes the clip around the ear, in comes effective (and relatively easy) psychological nudges. edit: forgot to mention current self-help trends. You can even get self-help podcasts!! :) There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Tue, 2006-10-31 11:20

#26

I'd agree with Yan and say these shows are trying to inform the masses on what to be honest IMO, is mostly common sense. I think TV is blamed a little too much for kids behaviour, and IMO is in no way linked to the rise in ADHD and other conditions, which are chemical imbalances in the brain. Yes neglect when younger can cause certain parts of the brain to shut down but not to that extent. Yes many kids with these problems do watch too much TV, but it hasn't caused it, the parents are just more likely to turn to the TV quicker as a distraction when the child is displaying negative behaviour. The rise in such things is also negotiable, in the not too far past they'd have just been labeled naughty, (our prisons are full of such cases), any rise would be more likely down to people with faulty genes mating with other people with faulty genes. My own son, who is autistic, taught himself sign language from the BBC's something special, this was despite numerous attempts from speech and language specialists to teach him. While I viewed it as a miracle I wasa informed this isn't uncommon in autistics, something to do with the TV not expecting anything from him. The lack of social interaction in such children is evident from the start and has nothing to do with too much TV. Off the subject I know but relevant. nobody

Tue, 2006-10-31 13:04

#27

Steven Johnson's "Everything Bad is Good For You" presents a most interesting argument that TV these days, generally speaking, actually helps to improve the intelligence (including "emotional" intelligence) of its regular - particular young - consumer. The above is akin to the life imitating art & vice versa argument, is it not? Are we "controlled" by or do we "control" TV? Similarly other forms of media... Being my usual fence-like self, I'd say it's a bit of both. A programme can't be popular unless we want and choose to watch it, but on the other hand the people who are responsible for the content of our media intake can have some influence over what we "choose" to watch and like to watch. It is, I believe, possible to subtly and insidiously influence the opinions and behaviour of the masses - not that I necessarily (!) believe in such a conspiracy theory; but I feel it would be complacent to presume we are totally in control of our own socio-psychological makeup. Maybe the more intelligent and "aware" of us, but even then... BTW, I also learned the correct way to stand whilst washing up from a Big Brother contestant... :-/ ~PEPS~ Here's a link to a blog wot I have started... http://pepsoid.wordpress.com/

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Tue, 2006-10-31 17:49

#28

Peps, my point was that TV won't cause conditions such as ADHD, they are already there. Without a doubt the media can sway our judgement on matters, look at the way New Labour imbraced it as a tool. I don't know if I'd go as far as the likes of Chomskey, or is it Chomsky, but it certainly has an influence. Stuart Hall's 'encoding decoding' work offers explanation, in a nut shell, if a group in society is always portrayed in a negative light then it will influence the main part of society to se them in that way. A good example is teenagers for instance, are they getting worse, or is it merely Moral Panic. If they are getting worse it maybe a result of consistent moral panics by the media over each generation contributing to complacency as already villified generations grow up and have children thinking, yeah they said that about us. nobody

Wed, 2006-11-01 10:03

#29

Is the insecurity/inadequacy of parents (on tv) being naturalised then? (It's repeated in the shows quite insistently innit). Supernanny last night was interesting - Jo Frost was directly attacked (called 'bitch', bitten, scratched) by the 9 year old girl who was the 'presenting problem'. The girl also told the camera crew to get out of her room at one point.. and they edited this in. It was proper postmodern stuff - and really scuppered any relaxing voyeuristic moment one might have been having...Was the last in the series so I suppose it mattered less that the editing was more challenging... Of course, the conclusion's the same as ever: it's the parents' fault (for not setting and keeping to boundaries/ staying calm in the face of childish volume/violence), and we are told at the end that things are better for the family now that the parents are in control (and spending more 'quality time' with their daughter). However, the images of the parents towards the end show them looking 'emotional' and suitably chastised (more than 'successfully trained'). Do you think I'd learn most about 'what it's all about' by interviewing viewers? I like this collection of anonymous view-givings. Maybe many people aren't fully aware of (or willing to admit) why they watch these shows, and are more likely to reflect/be honest in the context of a web forum in which identities are at least partially concealed? I didn't know about the self-help podcasts yan! Just looked up 'parenting podcast' and got this: http://www.podcast.net/show/26230 - a different perspective altogether (a more 'Trinny and Susannah Undress' approach?) sponsored somewhat ironically, by an intra-uterine coil manufacturer. It sometimes seems as though we're either being told we're rubbish parents and need to display our contrition, or we are being told that we've lost our mojo and we have to be ritually humiliated in public before we can regain it and be fancied by our partner again. Can any of this be read optimistically?

Wed, 2006-11-01 11:25

#30

archergirl

Perhaps it's not so much that we're being *told* we're rubbish parents, galfreda, but rather that it's a commonly-accepted belief that there *are* rubbish parents out there who ort a be straightened out, with an added collective benefit for those who witness the straightening out by getting some handy tips to sort out their own broods. I'm not sure we get half of the story about shows like Supernanny; we are solicited to join such programmes (how else do people get on the show, I wonder), so clearly the people who join must feel on some level that they *are* rubbish parents; otherwise why are their children so out of control? I think there's a barely-veiled morality lesson in each of these shows, perhaps even an effort by whoever funds such things for a type of social control, not necessarily a bad thing, IMO. But there must be some other incentive involved to allow oneself to be ritually humiliated on national television, besides just 'practical help'. Is it financial? 15 minutes of fame? Most of them turn out 'happily ever after' after the programmes, but I wonder at what is edited out.

Wed, 2006-11-01 11:40

#31

Thank you for all these groovy responses by the way. I want to ask what is it about the 'zeitgeist' that makes tele-parent-training so essential, I wonder? I mean, why now? And the 'sorting out' of the brood thing is interesting, as often it seems it's the parents that need 'sorting out' - the 'sorting out' of the children comes as a consequence of this... You're right about the solicitations - there are websites which virtually beg for participants on behalf of the shows' producers, such as www.beonscreen.com. The appeal seems to be to a mixture of our narcissism (watch me, watch me) and our feeling of helplessness... Yes, it would be good to learn what's edited out, though this must be pretty hard to find out about. Maybe we can read the absences in the text itself, as a starting point... The link between help and morality is really fascinating. Is therapy the new morality?

Wed, 2006-11-01 12:18

#32

yan

I've got a headache this morning so me brain isn't functioning, but I would like to point to a new possibility. Could tv self-help be part of a government incentive to ease the burden of cash-strapped mental health services? Vague, but it's ringing a few bells in me aching head. Roughly related to this is 'patient empowerment'. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1369-6513.1999.00048.x This kinda picks up on it too: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=419364 There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Wed, 2006-11-01 13:38

#33

Interesting yan - are you thinking of a sort of self-governing? Someone called Nikolas Rose has been writing about this (after Foucault). I've just set up a blog about these issues, using some of my posts from here - I'd be delighted if anyone wanted to post their thoughts there too/instead. I hope it works, it's my first ever blog (and it shows). All your comments (even if you just re-post the ones you put on here... Hmm, how desperate am I...) will be hugely appreciated. Please (and thank you!) visit http://www.telehelp.blogspot.com/

Wed, 2006-11-01 13:41

#34

(attempt to make live link) http://www.telehelp.blogspot.com

Wed, 2006-11-01 13:50

#35

archergirl

I think yan may be on the right track. Think about nutrition: public health officials have been trying for yonks to get people to feed themselves and their children decent food (Five a Day and so forth), with debatable success. It takes one very loud and opinionated famous chef to have a television show about the atrocities of school lunches and BOOM! The Government starts funding better school lunches; county councils report up to a 12% DROP in school lunches in the immediate aftermath of this programme. So *something* has sunk in to John Q Public about the shite the schools have been feeding their kids, and it takes some guy on TV to get parents to wake up. Who funded 'Jamie's School Lunches'? And to what purpose? Ergo, who is funding the other self-help programmes like Supernanny? To what purpose? Oh, this is very intriguing.

Wed, 2006-11-01 15:03

#36

I think you'll find advertisers fund such programmes, I think any thought of the government being behind it is a little far fetched. For one, in the Jamie Oliver case, it meant the government had to stump up cash, so they wouldn't have been best pleased. The more likely explanation for these shows, and especially the amount on our screens is they're cheap to make. Why do people like to watch them? Because there's nothing we like better than feeling superior and judging others for their short comings. nobody

Wed, 2006-11-01 16:23

#37

Nobody said: â€œThe more likely explanation for these shows, and especially the amount on our screens is they're cheap to make. Why do people like to watch them? Because there's nothing we like better than feeling superior and judging others for their short comings.â€ I think Nobodyâ€™s hit the nail on the head! Whatever the reasons for these programmes being made and the possible reasons for many of us watching them, however, I donâ€™t think this necessarily lessens their potential benefitâ€¦ I flippantly threw in my Big Brother-related comments (re duvets and washing up) for humorous purposes, but thinking about it, they actually illustrate how just casually watching such programmes enables one to learn stuff one wouldnâ€™t necessarily otherwise learn â€“ even if it is just relatively inconsequential things like how to put on a duvet cover and how to stand correctly whilst washing up (although, in the case of the latter, standing correctly whilst washing up does help to prevent back pain, so itâ€™s not *that* inconsequentialâ€¦!). I must just stress at this point, however, that I am most definitely *not* saying we would be more intelligent and â€œwell-adjustedâ€ (whatever that means) members of society if we dilligently subjected ourselves to the gazillions of hours of Big Brother that seep through our screens once a yearâ€¦ ~PEPS~ Here's a link to a blog wot I have started... http://pepsoid.wordpress.com/

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Wed, 2006-11-01 17:00

#38

yan

Nobody said: 'Because there's nothing we like better than feeling superior and judging others for their short comings.' I wouldn't say I sit there judging people. But it's nice to see a good slanging match kickin' off, be it a twenty something slapper on big bro or a two year old kid wiping turd on the walls. But what do they get out of it? Big Bro and Supernanny are hardly similar, except that they're both reality based and have a psychological underpinning. Big bro is popular with youth culture, there are egos to be satisfied and money to be won. Supernanny doesn't offer a prize and, as archergirl said, humiliates parents in front of millions of people. Parents are normally naturally proud and boastful about their children so why would a family volunteer? Unless they're working on the principle that they're getting pro advice that they'd normally have to pay through the nose for and they consider the sacrifice of their public image as justified if it's going to help their children. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Wed, 2006-11-01 18:39

#39

"I wouldn't say I sit there judging people. But it's nice to see a good slanging match kickin' off, be it a twenty something slapper" Lucky you're not sat there judging people aye Yan, or was that statement meant to be ironic. "but I'll add that people are willing to admit their weaknesses publicly for what I can only see as the opportunity to get their "15 minutes" on tv." Weak are they? or just fame hungry? nobody

Wed, 2006-11-01 20:17

#40

Nobody: "Weak are they? or just fame hungry?" Could it be said that "fame hungry" implies "weak"? (for what reasons are people fame hungry?) ~PEPS~ Here's a link to a blog wot I have started... http://pepsoid.wordpress.com/

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Wed, 2006-11-01 20:34

#41

Wouldn't like to say Peps, I'm not a qualified psychologist and don't particular *like* to judge people. Though I, like most humans, do jump to conclusions. nobody

Wed, 2006-11-01 23:16

#42

yan

There's a big risk in opening the doors to your less-than-perfect life or character. Note the fat bitch who was claiming benefits and got herself into strife on 'wife swap'. Note big bro's Grace who was beaten outside a nightclub recently. Events can easily swing to the extreme and destroy a person's life. No doubt individuals and families are advised of all eventualities before jumping in. But I still can't grasp the benefits of appearing on such a prog as "Honey We're Killing the Kids." For a person or a couple to admit that they are making a fuck-up of raising their kids in such a public display aren't just there for the 15 minutes and the good advice. Nah! There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Thu, 2006-11-02 09:14

#43

Maybe they think that they will be somehow Saved redeemed by television. Is there some quasi-religious surrender involved in appearing / being witnessed in all one's unglory...? http://telehelp.blogspot.com

Thu, 2006-11-02 09:18

#44

.. come to think of it maybe we feel somehow redeemed by watching? (Except when scary 9 year olds called Megan speak directly to the camera (crew) on 'Supernanny' - horrifying!) http://telehelp.blogspot.com

Thu, 2006-11-02 09:19

#45

PS. I meant saved OR redeemed, not 'Saved redeemed' - God knows what that would involve..

Thu, 2006-11-02 09:35

#46

archergirl

"...I still can't grasp the benefits of appearing on such a prog as "Honey We're Killing the Kids." For a person or a couple to admit that they are making a fuck-up of raising their kids in such a public display aren't just there for the 15 minutes and the good advice." Perhaps they *are* there for the good advice. Most of the families we see on these programmes don't just have one or two kids; three seems to be the minimum. Even effective parents feel overwhelmed and outnumbered at times, so imagine being a parent with very weak personal boundaries and four or five little hooligans running amok. Perhaps these parents simply feel desperate enough to do just about *anything* to get some help; Social Services is fairly useless about such things, being more inclined to remove children from the house rather than sort out poor parenting practices. The thing that moves me, especially in 'Honey, We're Killing the Kids' (my kids and I are big fans) is that these hapless, feckless parents seem to genuinely *love* their broods, but have so few parenting skills that they lose sight of this whilst desperately trying to cope. Perhaps there's something to be said for these sorts of 'parenting classes'; our society is no longer comprised of close-knit families and villages where everyone chips in with the parenting, so there is little in the way of information or 'societal values' [for want of a better expression] getting passed down. Many parents feel very much on their own. I've often felt at a loss as to how best to deal with my sometimes unruly kids, and actually, Supernanny's idea of the 'time out + apology from child + cuddle afterward' combination has been very effective, especially with my youngest, who's got a phenomenally prickly temperament.

Tue, 2006-11-21 13:49

#47

yan

I thought this article fitted in well here. Government proposal to spend 4m on supernannies: http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13553153,00.html There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Tue, 2006-11-21 20:58

#48