In Pursuit of Laziness

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In Pursuit of Laziness

I feel the need to expand upon a tangent I unsuccessfully attempted to travel down in the "Indigo Children thread (a tangent which has nothing to do with unis or "the uni experience, for those of you who may be cringing in abject terror at the mere mentioned of that thread). To whit...

Laziness!

More specifically...

There is no inherent virtue in working hard. The so-called work "ethic was a device invented by the "heroes of the industrial so-called "revolution to convince the common man (or indeed woman) that there was some virtue in slogging one's guts out in service of The Machine. Granted, things are a little different nowadays, but the values and some of the presumptions have still carried down the generations. Jesus did not believe in working hard ("the lilies of the field do not toil... etc). Neither did the Buddha. Did these people get it so wrong? I don't deny that there are plenty of people who have to work hard, who have little or no choice in the matter; but there are also far too many people who believe that working hard is a virtue in itself, whatever/whoever you are working for. And this attitude is encouraged by the "captains of industry. If people don't stop believing in this almost religious principle, how are we ever going to free ourselves from the shackles of capitalism? Or something...

This is a tide, I feel, which needs to be turned!

[[[~P~]]]

There's a difference between being perpetually unproductive, which is 'lazy', and having periods of productivity and rest, which is sensible, and what much of the rest of the world seems to have a better grip on than we do. People who expect that everyone else will do everything for them, without reciprocity, are lazy.
Personally, I find people with no work ethic to be boring, useless and even a distraction. Anybody around me who is lazy is going to be miserable. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

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I'm not miserable. [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

"....there are also far too many people who believe that working hard is a virtue in itself, whatever/whoever you are working for." All hard work is a kind of exercise, and exercise is good for you. It's also the case that simply keeping on top of things requires hard work for most of us. If your attitude is generally lazy, the implication is that you expect something else to do the work for you. I do agree with the supposedly French cultural philosophy of spending a long time chilling out and working at being a good friend or family person, but that's the same as a philosophy of laziness. So, yeah, I think thorough application in all things is a virtue. Especially thinking. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
Interesting topic. Without sounding too pretentious or melodramatic, there's a common little nugget of wisdom that I carry round with me daily. It's a common quote which I'm sure you've heard: 'On your death bed, the last thing you'll wish you'd done is spent more time at the office'. Now I believe that if you work mindfully at any task it can bring some sense of pride and joy. Sweeping a floor, when done mindfully and with dignity, can be a satisfying and enriching experience if customised to suit your standards. There's nothing destructive in this attitude. But, returning to the quote above, there's a point where certain cultural, political and industrial pressures begin to affect an indivdual in a negative way (using your 'captains of industry example above) and I think it's important to stop in one's tracks and abstain, take some time to remember what ultimately matters in life, and act accordingly. This is one reason why I'm shocked (sometimes) to hear of two-parent families rolling into nurseries in 4x4's, dropping 6 month old babies off. If I were to challenge that lifestyle (which I really have noright to) then I'd probably be classed as either jealous, lazy, unintelligent, or poor. :) But the truth of the matter is (thinking about the quote above again) those perceptions couldn't be further from the truth. So I'm conscious that hard work done mindfully and with pride is a day's recuperative meditation in itself, but there's a very blurred boundary marking the shift from positive to negative graft...something I think the 'captains' exploit incessantly. Anyway, off to watch 638 ways to kill castro, on c4 A few more thoughts on this. if we regress to a time before the industrial revolution we worked in harmony with nature. The seasons dictated our pace and lifetstyle to an extent. The industrial revolution marked our departure from this and introduced technology which we were then required to keep up with. Although technologists were using scientific discoveries to make our lives more comfortable (light bulbs, etc) we were also faced with the problem of adjusting from the relatively slow pace of working in nature to the increased speeds that technology demanded. It's only been a mere couple of hundred years (just two and bit average lifetimes) since all this kicked-off and as technology has introduced even more new fangled contraptions into our lives, we find ourselves having to keep up with these synthetic speeds, which may not be harmonious with our nature. We get up in the morning earlier because we have light. We can jump in the shower, fix a brew and something to eat in a flash. Jump into a car which can travel over distances in less time, get to work and deal with all the machinery which demands we keep up with its increasing speeds. What may have at first appeared to be a Godsend with regards to making life more comfortable has since been exploited by the 'captains' to ensure that productivity increases, meaning: less time for leisure, more stress and work pressure. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

How 'hard' I work is directly proportional to how interested I am in the job I'm doing. But I can also be hard-working at mindless manual work it's things like routine data-entry or database management that make me 'lazy'. "I think thorough application in all things is a virtue. Especially thinking" Due to a brain injury, I have been left with significant cognitive impairment and my concentration is extremely fragile, so thorough application to thinking isn't possible any more. Never mind, I am unvirtuous but happy! jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

 

I am lazy but I get bored very easily and find that, in a general sense, the busier I am the happier I am. At my previous job there were two of three occasions where I was paid, once for as much as three months, for coming in and doing nothing, just waiting for work. This was horrible, I hated it, and I became lazier doing it and I hate that. Nanowrimo has occupied all my free time for the last month, and I love it, I wish I could motivate myself to do that much work off my own back, but like I say, I'm lazy. UnIlike Jude, I don't really care how interesting a task is compared to how important it is, a lot of my job is bugfixing which is drudge, and a lot of my previous job was basically data entry, but both needed to be done and I was happy to do it. In contrast, no matter how interesting a task is, if I don't believe it's of any value I can't motivate myself to do it at all.

 

(Warning! Please prepare yourself for what is probably my longest post ever...) Would the word “idleness” be preferable to “laziness”? I recently wrote a piece for my blog, called “Breaking the Chain of Guilt,” which speaks of this idea that we should not be idle if it means others have to do our work – rather than going through the unnecessary toil of repeating myself, I shall provide the link here… http://www.pepsoid.wordpress.com/2006/10/30/breaking-the-chain-of-guilt/ Regarding my argument in general (and that of the likes of Tom Hodgkinson in “How to be Idle”), I shall also provide a link to Bertrand Russell’s essay, “In Praise of Idleness,” whose sentiments I believe in wholeheartedly (it was written around the 1930’s, I think, but I feel it is largely still relevant today)… http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/2528/br_idle.htm For those who don’t want to read the entire piece, however (which admittedly does occasionally have a tendency to rattle on a bit and repeat itself), I shall herewith pull out a few quotes… (I’ve managed to get it down to about a third of what it was… honest!) ... From the beginning of civilization until the Industrial Revolution, a man could, as a rule, produce by hard work little more than was required for the subsistence of himself and his family… Modern technique has made it possible for leisure, within limits, to be not the prerogative of small privileged classes, but a right evenly distributed throughout the community. The morality of work is the morality of slaves, and the modern world has no need of slavery. … The conception of duty, speaking historically, has been a means used by the holders of power to induce others to live for the interests of their masters rather than for their own. Of course the holders of power conceal this fact from themselves by managing to believe that their interests are identical with the larger interests of humanity. … Modern technique has made it possible to diminish enormously the amount of labor required to secure the necessaries of life for everyone. This was made obvious during the war. At that time all the men in the armed forces, and all the men and women engaged in the production of munitions, all the men and women engaged in spying, war propaganda, or Government offices connected with the war, were withdrawn from productive occupations. In spite of this, the general level of well-being among unskilled wage-earners on the side of the Allies was higher than before or since. The significance of this fact was concealed by finance: borrowing made it appear as if the future was nourishing the present. But that, of course, would have been impossible; a man cannot eat a loaf of bread that does not yet exist. The war showed conclusively that, by the scientific organization of production, it is possible to keep modern populations in fair comfort on a small part of the working capacity of the modern world. If, at the end of the war, the scientific organization, which had been created in order to liberate men for fighting and munition work, had been preserved, and the hours of the week had been cut down to four, all would have been well. Instead of that the old chaos was restored, those whose work was demanded were made to work long hours, and the rest were left to starve as unemployed. Why? Because work is a duty, and a man should not receive wages in proportion to what he has produced, but in proportion to his virtue as exemplified by his industry. This is the morality of the Slave State, applied in circumstances totally unlike those in which it arose. No wonder the result has been disastrous. Let us take an illustration. Suppose that, at a given moment, a certain number of people are engaged in the manufacture of pins. They make as many pins as the world needs, working (say) eight hours a day. Someone makes an invention by which the same number of men can make twice as many pins: pins are already so cheap that hardly any more will be bought at a lower price. In a sensible world, everybody concerned in the manufacturing of pins would take to working four hours instead of eight, and everything else would go on as before. But in the actual world this would be thought demoralizing. The men still work eight hours, there are too many pins, some employers go bankrupt, and half the men previously concerned in making pins are thrown out of work. There is, in the end, just as much leisure as on the other plan, but half the men are totally idle while half are still overworked. In this way, it is insured that the unavoidable leisure shall cause misery all round instead of being a universal source of happiness. Can anything more insane be imagined? … In America men often work long hours even when they are well off; such men, naturally, are indignant at the idea of leisure for wage-earners, except as the grim punishment of unemployment; in fact, they dislike leisure even for their sons. … Owing to the absence of any central control over production, we produce hosts of things that are not wanted. … If you ask him [the ‘average’ worker] what he thinks the best part of his life, he is not likely to say: 'I enjoy manual work because it makes me feel that I am fulfilling man's noblest task, and because I like to think how much man can transform his planet. It is true that my body demands periods of rest, which I have to fill in as best I may, but I am never so happy as when the morning comes and I can return to the toil from which my contentment springs.' I have never heard working men say this sort of thing. They consider work, as it should be considered, a necessary means to a livelihood, and it is from their leisure that they derive whatever happiness they may enjoy. … It will be said that, while a little leisure is pleasant, men would not know how to fill their days if they had only four hours of work out of the twenty-four. In so far as this is true in the modern world, it is a condemnation of our civilization; it would not have been true at any earlier period. There was formerly a capacity for light-heartedness and play which has been to some extent inhibited by the cult of efficiency. The modern man thinks that everything ought to be done for the sake of something else, and never for its own sake. Serious-minded persons, for example, are continually condemning the habit of going to the cinema [perhaps to be compared nowadays to, for example, playing videogames?], and telling us that it leads the young into crime. But all the work that goes to producing a cinema is respectable, because it is work, and because it brings a money profit. The notion that the desirable activities are those that bring a profit has made everything topsy-turvy… we attach too little importance to enjoyment and simple happiness, and… we do not judge production by the pleasure that it gives to the consumer. … The pleasures of urban populations have become mainly passive: seeing cinemas, watching football matches, listening to the radio, and so on. This results from the fact that their active energies are fully taken up with work; if they had more leisure, they would again enjoy pleasures in which they took an active part. … In a world where no one is compelled to work more than four hours a day, every person possessed of scientific curiosity will be able to indulge it, and every painter will be able to paint without starving, however excellent his pictures may be. Young writers will not be obliged to draw attention to themselves by sensational pot-boilers, with a view to acquiring the economic independence needed for monumental works… … Above all, there will be happiness and joy of life, instead of frayed nerves, weariness, and dyspepsia. The work exacted will be enough to make leisure delightful, but not enough to produce exhaustion. Since men will not be tired in their spare time, they will not demand only such amusements as are passive and vapid… Good nature is, of all moral qualities, the one that the world needs most, and good nature is the result of ease and security, not of a life of arduous struggle. Modern methods of production have given us the possibility of ease and security for all; we have chosen, instead, to have overwork for some and starvation for others. Hitherto we have continued to be as energetic as we were before there were machines; in this we have been foolish, but there is no reason to go on being foolish forever. … :-) [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

"A few more thoughts on this. if we regress to a time before the industrial revolution we worked in harmony with nature." I think this is a very romantic view of the world prior to the Industrial Revolution. People didn't just sit around waiting for the harvest every year, and I doubt we have to work harder today to 'keep up' with machines. If anything, we've got more time for leisure time than ever, not to mention more ways of relaxing. And yes, we have 'captains of industry', but they had landowners. There will always be people in greater positions of power who take the rewards of other people's hard work for themselves. People complain that we're manipulated into obedience today - sure we are, but in the middle ages they cured dissent in even more blunt ways. If the population were restless, you rounded them up and took most of them off to fight a war. That's not to say everything is great today, and I don't think anyone would suggest the 9-5 life is healthy. It's also the case that machines don't appear to actually save us work, because expectations of productivity simply increase with technological advancements. But I don't think you can make a case for the idea that we have it harder now than ever. That's just 'grass is greener' logic. I think the raw truth is that a greater percentage of the population are able to relax and feel good about themselves than ever before. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
Russells' 'pins machine' example is really interesting, but his recommendation requires the kind of tight restrictions on capitalism that will will never be introduced as long as corporations have a say in it: "In a sensible world, everybody concerned in the manufacturing of pins would take to working four hours instead of eight, and everything else would go on as before." Assuming they get paid the same amount for four hours, instead of eight, the problem here is that there's competition in labour, and any manager of the above scenario will likely have no problem finding half as many replacement workers who will do twice the amount of hours each. Voila - he's knocked down half the company's expenditure on wages. This is going to happen here and now, of course. Many professions will be outsourced to foreign countries in the years ahead, because the labour is cheaper. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
My deepest desire is to outsource myself to a Mediterranean country, after earning enough money to live a more leisurely life. Hmm, which restaurant should we eat at tonight? I will pay someone else a very generous wage to do all the housework for me. It *is* just a fantasy. I don't feel I have *nearly* enough time to relax; work consumes the week, and weekends are spent catching up on all the domestic chores that have been neglected during the week. Four people can make a lot of laundry. Hence the desire to pay someone else very well to offload this burden. I hate the way life is lived in this society. I'm not rich enough to evade it, however...:-(
'I think this is a very romantic view of the world prior to the Industrial Revolution' Yes, it was ill thought out. extracting from Peps' quote: 'There was formerly a capacity for light-heartedness and play which has been to some extent inhibited by the cult of efficiency.' I suppose I was reaching out towards this perspective. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

"Jesus did not believe in working hard" Have you ever tried being crucified? "I shall also provide a link to Bertrand Russell’s essay, “In Praise of Idleness,” whose sentiments I believe in wholeheartedly" Russell's rose-tinted and profoundly historically innacurate view of life before the industrial revolution ultimately led him towards similarly misinformed and ridiculous support for unpleasant communist regimes in later life. Orwell is quite good on machines in the The Road to Wigan Pier. That's worth a read.

 

Phew! I feared for a minute people would be scared off by my gargantuan quote. As they haven’t, however… … JC: “If anything, we've got more time for leisure time than ever, not to mention more ways of relaxing.” The point BR was making, and I think it still applies today, is that we should have more leisure time than ever, but in fact we don’t. This is as a direct result of the “work ethic” and has nothing to do with how much work needs to be done. JC: “I think the raw truth is that a greater percentage of the population are able to relax and feel good about themselves than ever before.” “raw”? Really? Do you really think people are happier today than at any previous point in the entire history of the world? Obviously I don’t know, as I’ve only lived for 34 years, and even during those I haven’t had a direct link to the happiness level of every living human being, but it does seem pretty unlikely. Bukharin: "Have you ever tried being crucified?" Oddly enough, no, but I wouldn't say Jesus pursued crucifixion as an act of work. … Generally speaking, my point is that although we would have an enormous mountain to climb in reversing the oppressive capitalist tide (pardon the mixed metaphors), we will never do so unless we stop believing that work is, in and of itself, a virtue. Things need to get done – food needs to be made, children need to be raised, etc. That’s obvious. But unless we dispense with this culture of guilt surrounding how much we should be “contributing” to the system, we will never allow ourselves to even consider that we deserve to have more work-free time, in which to do the things which will have a positive spiritual (in the general sense) benefit to the world, never mind actually making the first moves towards changing how things are. [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

"The point BR was making, and I think it still applies today, is that we should have more leisure time than ever, but in fact we don’t." Well, he's wrong. Of course we do. There are entire industries that operate off the back of our free time. We have an abundance of it. The 9 to 5 working day is nothing compared to the hours people used to work. Jeez, Peps, we even have leisure time *while* we work - every post you make in this forum is effectively done at your leisure! What makes us stressed is the fact that we spend most of that free time fretting about what we're doing with our lives, and fill the vacuum with more and more personal goals and concerns. Previous generations simply didn't have time for these pursuits, unless they were relatively wealthy. "Do you really think people are happier today than at any previous point in the entire history of the world?" Any comparison is pointless. People are frequently unhappy today because they compare themselves to other people, or because they have a distorted idea of what happiness entails. I don't think there was anything like the *expectation* of happiness in the distant past - people just had to do whatever was needed to live, amid much resorting to drink. I will say this though - people are content these days to the extent that there is zero chance of any kind of revolution or uprising in this country. Those kind of things only happen when most of the population are desperately miserable and afraid for their future - note, then, how previous centuries are littered with them. "Generally speaking, my point is that although we would have an enormous mountain to climb in reversing the oppressive capitalist tide (pardon the mixed metaphors), we will never do so unless we stop believing that work is, in and of itself, a virtue." We can believe that work is a virtue and still reject the core ethic of capitalism, which is that the free market is the best thing for everyone. We can also reject the driving force behind capitalism - the belief that greater material wealth equals greater achievement equals greater sense of self-worth. It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you think hard work is a virtue. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
JC: “Jeez, Peps, we even have leisure time *while* we work - every post you make in this forum is effectively done at your leisure!” My employer doesn’t give me that time… I steal it back off them! I allow myself to do this, because I don’t feel guilty that I am not “contributing” enough. JC: “I will say this though - people are content these days to the extent that there is zero chance of any kind of revolution or uprising in this country.” Content or oppressed? Could it be that people don't revolt, because they don't feel it would do any good? JC: “We can believe that work is a virtue and still reject the core ethic of capitalism…” Well maybe the “work ethic” doesn’t absolutely equate with capitalism, but it certainly helps to perpetuate the oppressive nature of such. [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

There is more free time because we're squeezing all our activities into a shorter working day. Previously, people were up with cock and in bed as soon as cows come home. Alot of people in the middle-ages simply couldn't afford to keep tallow blazin' after dark. But the pace of life was slower. People most definately didn't do the night shift, except for your community guards, thieves and prostitutes. We can capitalise on the evening because we have good street lighting, etc. whereas previously, people were considered nuts for leaving home after dark. Oh yeah..things have definately improved. But, as peps rightly said, the 'work ethic' is a nasty little shit...and it aint been laid down by the good masses! There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Indeed people were “up with cock (!) and in bed as soon as cows come home” in days of Yore, Mr Yan, but there was apparently more time for leisure between those hours – for long lunches, lying about on hillocks chewing grass, etc (Tom Hodgkinson (my hero of the moment, as you might have guessed) speaks of such things, btw – have you made purchase of “How to be Idle” yet?). This is because before the industrial so-called “revolution,” there was less of a concern with working a particular number of hours and more with producing a particular amount of whatever you were producing. Certainly not the case nowadays! Putting aside for now the argument as to whether we technically have more or less leisure time, what is particularly oppressive about the present “system” is the inability, amongst the vast majority of workers, to apply an output-based flexibility to one’s work/leisure ratio. In most office jobs, if you work you socks off to get those invoices posted in half the normal time, what is your reward? Half a day off with full pay? Not likely! The reward for hard work is often more hard work… [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Peps."Generally speaking, my point is that although we would have an enormous mountain to climb in reversing the oppressive capitalist tide (pardon the mixed metaphors), we will never do so unless we stop believing that work is, in and of itself, a virtue." Okay...reversing the oppressive capitalist tide? Here is an example of a glittering generality, proclaiming how horrible something is and that it has to be changed...but as usual...the standard leftist vocality doesn't really specify a better solution. It may be possible that there is no need for revolution or general revolt because the capitalist system has provided a better approach to social equity than any other political/social format available. Please sir, take my property and give it to somebody else, and here, take the money I've saved and give it away, and oh...btw...I don't need this job I worked so hard to get, I'd rather operate a mechanical rice picker. Ahhh, I'm much better now! Oh...may I have my ration of gruel? C'mon peps...you're resorting to psuedo-babble with no valid alternative as an explanation. It's more like destroy it for the sake of destroying it, who cares about alternatives that work. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

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I’m not really making a political point here, Radio. The reason I’m not saying, “Destroy capitalism” and “Replace it with communism” (for example) is that I will concede that the political system behind the sort of pro-work oppression I am referring to is perhaps irrelevant. In some of the bits of Russell’s essay I didn’t quote (well you didn’t want me quoting the whole darned thing, did you?) he speaks of how communist (supposedly) systems experience similar anti-idle problems, and then he goes on to propose potential solutions. Whether it is within capitalism, communism or whatever-ism, my point is that the “work ethic” that so many people of all sorts of political leanings believe in is misguided and exploitative. There is (as far as I am aware) not one type of existing political system in which the “work ethic” is inherently absent. Therefore in order to be free of this virtue of work (if, that is, we decide that we need to be free of it), we need not to necessarily replace one political system with another, but rather replace one value with another – which is perhaps a trickier and less clear-cut prospect! [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

"My employer doesn’t give me that time… I steal it back off them! I allow myself to do this, because I don’t feel guilty that I am not “contributing” enough." Your employer gives you that time by merit of not demanding more work from you, or overseeing you with a whip. It's still leisure time. "Content or oppressed? Could it be that people don't revolt, because they don't feel it would do any good?" Doesn't make any difference. If you don't think a revolution would do any good, you're plainly not miserable or desperate enough. Rebellions happen when you feel *anything* would be better than the present situation. "Well maybe the “work ethic” doesn’t absolutely equate with capitalism, but it certainly helps to perpetuate the oppressive nature of such." Only if you let it. It's an individual choice. Hard work for me has nothing to do with serving captains of industry. Likewise, you don't have to have a guilt complex about not 'contributing'. I don't think that's a very pervasive feeling in this society. Most people are quite happy to take advantage of holes in the system - some to a piss-taking extent. "The reward for hard work is often more hard work." Well, this is exactly what you want! If you reward people for hard work, that's as good as teaching people hard work is a virtue. The pay-per-hour system is surely what you're after if you're against working hard, as it rewards people for their time, rather than their industriousness. "but as usual...the standard leftist vocality doesn't really specify a better solution." Functional laws that prevent corporations from murdering and enslaving people in pursuit of profit would be a start. The French working ethic is, by all accounts, far superior to the Anglo-American one. "Please sir, take my property and give it to somebody else, and here, take the money I've saved and give it away, and oh...btw...I don't need this job I worked so hard to get, I'd rather operate a mechanical rice picker." The richer you are, the better you are able to generate more wealth. It's absurd to suggest that this spiral of hoarding constitutes a fair accumulation of property. There's nothing more stupifyingly prattish, more likely to inspire revolt, than a rich man making the claim that his wealth corresponds to the hours he has put in, or his intelligence, or any virtue. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
'Indeed people were “up with cock (!) and in bed as soon as cows come home” in days of Yore, Mr Yan, but there was apparently more time for leisure between those hours – for long lunches, lying about on hillocks chewing grass, etc ' Yes, peps. Work life and community life were very closely integrated so work didn't necessarily 'feel' like work. Jack the Blacksmith had no opening hours pinned to his door. Him and his family would spend the day socialising whilst working and they didn't take 'lunch breaks' and such because there weren't really any clear cut divisions. Definately a slower, more leisurely pace to the working day. I don't know how everyone feels about the government's plans to increase school leaving age to 18 and increase the retirement age to 70 (eventually). It looks as though we've all collectively done ourselves proud by managing to live longer but gov. are now pushing the 'life plan' they have laid out for us along a notch or two to compensate for our increased longevity/productivity. There goes the extended retirement we should have rewarded ourselves! There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

JC: “Hard work for me has nothing to do with serving captains of industry. Likewise, you don't have to have a guilt complex about not 'contributing'. I don't think that's a very pervasive feeling in this society. Most people are quite happy to take advantage of holes in the system - some to a piss-taking extent.” I refer the learned gentleman back to my own “Breaking the Chain of Guilt” (http://pepsoid.wordpress.com/2006/10/30/breaking-the-chain-of-guilt/). JC: “Well, this is exactly what you want! If you reward people for hard work, that's as good as teaching people hard work is a virtue. The pay-per-hour system is surely what you're after if you're against working hard, as it rewards people for their time, rather than their industriousness.” No, no, no! You misunderstand me! I don’t expect to not have to do any work. But when I do work hard, I want to be rewarded for it, because I have given my time to do this thing which I don’t want to do. I want to be rewarded with leisure time. I want to be appreciated for the quality of my work, rather than the quantity of hours I put into it. How is it right that if I do 16 hours worth of work in 8 hours, I am paid the same as someone who does 4 hours worth of work in the same time? As I am neither rewarded with time or money for working hard, but with more work, I consequently don’t work as hard as I could in my job. I steal back what time I can. The pay-per-hour system encourages people like me to be “lazy”! As it is so engrained within the western way of doing things, however, it is seen as being right. Perhaps not overtly so, but how many people, do you think, if asked, would say it is wrong? ... Regarding increased retirement age... pft!! (not heard about the later school-leaving age thing... How will that work then? Will kids just spend more years in school? Or will they start school later as well? If not , will they learn more (allegedly) or just spend longer doing what they would’ve done anyway?) ... [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

I don't know, peps. Maybe kids'll start school at 2 weeks. :) That should please the 'career parents' lol There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

JC>"...Functional laws that prevent corporations from murdering and enslaving people in pursuit of profit would be a start. The French working ethic is, by all accounts, far superior to the Anglo-American one...." You aren't studying corporate law are you Jon? "all accounts"...that pretty much includes everyone, for whom I surmise you are now speaking. JC>"The richer you are, the better you are able to generate more wealth. It's absurd to suggest that this spiral of hoarding constitutes a fair accumulation of property. There's nothing more stupifyingly prattish, more likely to inspire revolt, than a rich man making the claim that his wealth corresponds to the hours he has put in, or his intelligence, or any virtue." I would agree with the first part of that statement. The rest is cock-doodle spoken like a true Englishman Jon. So, it is better for the industrious to work their ass off and then have the slackers divy it up? I suppose it is better to be born into wealth, but the "wealthy people" I know have earned it, not stolen it nor had it given to them. They start with nothing and build it to something and take some others along for the ride. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

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Peps said: 'But unless we dispense with this culture of guilt surrounding how much we should be “contributing” to the system, we will never allow ourselves to even consider that we deserve to have more work-free time.' Couldn't agree more with this statement. A Word like 'revolution' in a thread regards 'taking it little easier' is a little ott, but I do think we need to get in-line with Europe for starters. How many people receive those emails marked "Urgent" and it's something so not urgent that it's laughable? I think it's that kind of attitude that needs to be stamped out. Someone up top pushing someone below who in turn starts flapping and pushes someone below them and something so ridiculously trivial becomes "urgent!" This all reminds me of the Jamaicans in the Bicardi advert. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Just found this website... http://www.slowdownnow.org/content/view/14/23/ ...which has the quote... The Ancient Greeks understood that we work in order to have leisure. ...which is it in a nutshell! Working is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Also on the same website is the following animation... http://www.slowdownnow.org/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,31/ ...which is apparently based on the American experience, but can apply, with one or two adjustments, probably just about anywhere in the "first" (irony) world... Surely no one can believe that this is the way things should be! [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Very wise words, peps. Another path of the Axial period not mentioned here yet (and I'm surprised because it deals extensively with this issue) is Tao and wu wei (the art of doing nothing). “In the practice of The Way (that is what “Tao” or “Dao” means) every day something is dropped. Less and less do you need to force things, until finally you arrive at non-action. When nothing is done, nothing is left undone”. One of the guiding principles of Taoism is that of “wu wei”, which roughly translates into “effortless action”. Taoism says that all things that are in accordance with Tao do what they are supposed to do without any fuss, and they think not of doing anything that is “unnatural” for them to do. A tree sways with the wind. A plant grows out of a seed naturally. The wind blows this way, then that way. A bird flies, looks for food and propagates. The earth turns, and moves around in the universe.' Many of the fat little laughing geezer ornaments you see so much of in 'new age' stores are often mistaken for buddha when in fact they're Tao sages. The uncarved block - sheer simplicity brings bliss. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

I googled Tao and the first result was... http://tao-group.com/ ... gaaahhhhhh!!! But then the second result was... http://www.thetao.info/ ... Phew! Read a book about the Tao. The Tao is... . . . . . [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

"The pay-per-hour system encourages people like me to be “lazy”! Yes. And you started off this thread saying how important it was to be lazy. What's your problem? "So, it is better for the industrious to work their ass off and then have the slackers divy it up?" That's hardly the obvious alternative to the reality. How about the industrious get paid according to the time they put in, rather than finding that a few cunning hand-me-down tricks here and there leads to their getting more for less? It doesn't take much work, or much of a brain, to work out, for instance, that if you can afford a buy-to-let property in the present climate (in Britain) your bank balance will boom. And hey, once you can afford a financial advisor you don't even need to do any thinking. "the "wealthy people" I know have earned it, not stolen it nor had it given to them." Classic mistake that all rich people make - assuming that, having not 'stolen' the money or had it given to them as a gift, they *must* have earned it. Save it. When wealth generates wealth - when you have to work less and less the more you acquire - this notion of 'earning' goes out the window. If more wealthy people could get their head round this relatively simple idea, they might understand why people are so pissed off at them, instead of constantly hiding behind an egotistical delusion and crude caricatures of their critics. It wouldn't be so bad if money didn't make people into such pricks. As for this Taoism business, the West has always had an infatuation with religions that seem to offer an easy solution to the happiness problem. If that's your bag, fine, but I think it's pretty self-indulgent. There are serious problems in the world, and in everybody's life, that require a thorough application of thought and time and labour. Of course, every problem has a simple solution, and that solution is usually wrong. I'd rather work hard to get something right than lie back and let it go wrong. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
"It doesn't take much work, or much of a brain, to work out, for instance, that if you can afford a buy-to-let property in the present climate (in Britain) your bank balance will boom." To be fair, all the people I know who have done this have not done all that well by it, in fact one may be yet to see a penny profit after two years (not even counting the initial investment). Standing on the other side of the equation myself (the sdie that pays rent rather than receives it) I find it hard to see how this is possible, but far be it from me to doubt the words of my friends and family. That said, I agree with the principle, it is much much easier to make money with money.

 

Maybe they mean by 'profit' that they haven't paid off the initial mortgage yet. I dunno. When I worked in mortgages it was clear that everyone who rented out properties charged a heck of a lot more for rent than they had to pay in mortgage on the property, and all the work they have to do is occasionally visit or get a plumber round. That's if they're *good* landlords. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
No, they refer to the running costs plus mortgage payments. I can only take their words for it. I suspect the succesful landlords are the ones that A. are relcutant to pay for any damn thing, and B. don't get shafted in turn by the letting agents.

 

Oh yeah, letting agents cream off loads. Man, if they're not making money month to month, something's going awfully, awfully wrong. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
Well anyone who charges you £40 to write a bloody letter is obviously a little anxious to justify their worth. ---Incidentally i read the other day of a man who wrote his bank a letter and invoiced them £20 for it, they paid up.---

 

JC>"Classic mistake that all rich people make - assuming that, having not 'stolen' the money or had it given to them as a gift, they *must* have earned it. Save it. When wealth generates wealth - when you have to work less and less the more you acquire - this notion of 'earning' goes out the window. If more wealthy people could get their head round this relatively simple idea, they might understand why people are so pissed off at them, instead of constantly hiding behind an egotistical delusion and crude caricatures of their critics." Sorry dude, your statements don't hold water. Though you are entitled to your opinions you defeat your own arguments with gross generalizations and ignorantly make assumptions that you convert to convenient facts. You're glossing over a lot of things with very broad strokes of your imaginative contempt. "ALL rich people" make the same mistake? I fail to see the logic in that statement. Obtaining wealth by ones own efforts is hardly a mistake. Making money to invest is not a mistake, investing it poorly is a mistake It is those investments that continue the process and provides a source of income for others. Lets say I am rich and own a very successful photography studio, I invest my profits back into the studio, expanding the scope of my business, I may then employ another photographer...a job that may not have existed had I not. There is nothing wrong with investing money to make more money. It doesn't sit in a vacuum if invested, it is put to work driving the economy and creating/greasing the machines that provide employment. The simple fact that you have a disdain for wealth is okay, but making blanket statements that "ALL" wealthy people are the same is stupidity. Wealthy people are just like everybody else, they suffer from the same problems and same personality characteristics as the rest of society. What they are probably not (on average) is stupid or lazy. It is more likely that you have a disdain for a stereotype that is etched in your mind from god knows what source, and less likely that you actually know anything about it. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

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As for this Taoism business, the West has always had an infatuation with religions that seem to offer an easy solution to the happiness problem. If that's your bag, fine, but I think it's pretty self-indulgent. There are serious problems in the world, and in everybody's life, that require a thorough application of thought and time and labour. Of course, every problem has a simple solution, and that solution is usually wrong. I'd rather work hard to get something right than lie back and let it go wrong. It's all well and good to dismiss the ideas of Taoism as being overly simplistic, but how can a life spent working in a job you at best tolerate to buy tonnes of goods that you don't need, be a better philosophy? For self-indulgence I think the west wins hands down. You assume that by working hard things will go right but quite the opposite can be the case. The idea that lying back will necessarily lead to things going wrong is also an assumption. Many people spend most of the day working and their 'leisure' time catching up on chores. I seriously doubt that they have ever laid back and let things happen.
Greetings, slothful! ;-) Occams’s Razor: the simplest solution is usually right… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

'Many people spend most of the day working and their 'leisure' time catching up on chores. I seriously doubt that they have ever laid back and let things happen.' You know what would happen if I just 'laid back and let things happen'? The kids would have nothing to eat. When they did, it would be from dirty pans. They'd walk around in skiddy underpants and filthy clothes. We'd enjoy our leisure time amongst the mud, straw, and guinea pig shit tracked in from the garden, much like they did in the leisurely Middle Ages. Feh! Surely this kind of argument is only valid for singletons, childless people, or those who have someone else there, doing the chores for them. Usually a woman.
You know what would happen if I just 'laid back and let things happen'? The kids would have nothing to eat. When they did, it would be from dirty pans. They'd walk around in skiddy underpants and filthy clothes. We'd enjoy our leisure time amongst the mud, straw, and guinea pig shit tracked in from the garden, much like they did in the leisurely Middle Ages. Feh! Surely this kind of argument is only valid for singletons, childless people, or those who have someone else there, doing the chores for them. Usually a woman. It's not an all or nothing proposition though. Of course some amount of chores are necessary as is some form of income or self-sufficiency to sustain our lives and families. Some household chores can be enjoyable. I for one love doing the washing and hanging it on the line so much so that I do not consider it hard work. Many of the things we consider necessary chores are unnecessary and result from our anxiety about others seeing us as lazy as though being lazy was an inherently bad thing.
I think the thing with chores, similarly with clutter and life in general really, is that one should always, where possible, look to simplify. How many of these chores are strictly necessary? Of those that are, how can I spend a little less time on them, do them a little less frequently or delegate to those who perhaps do a little less than they could (e.g. children)? If one can shave little bits of time off here and there, one can find delightful little nuggets of time one didn’t realise one had! [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

"The simple fact that you have a disdain for wealth is okay, but making blanket statements that "ALL" wealthy people are the same is stupidity." OK, you got me on that. It's a generalisation. But wealthy people, being human, are defensive when criticised, and that inevitably leads, in many cases, to the irritating assertion that their wealth is somehow 'deserved'. I'm not saying that it's a mistake to invest it. But to say their wealth is 'deserved' implies they have somehow put in more hard work, or been cleverer, than people who have less money than them. This is pretty rich, pardon the expression. Few, if any, wealthy people have put in more hours, or been more imaginative than a great number of people less wealthy than them. The difference is, usually, that these people have put a greater part of their time and resources towards the specific goal of generating money. There has to be a point where the state, in the service of the people, puts its foot down on the rampant acquisition of property, because the inevitable result of the minority pursuing wealth with more fervour is the minority owning everything, and believing that they deserve to, despite the fact there are people in the world who work far harder than them throughout the course of their lives and end up owning next to nothing. We're not too far removed from that situation now. "It's all well and good to dismiss the ideas of Taoism as being overly simplistic, but how can a life spent working in a job you at best tolerate to buy tonnes of goods that you don't need, be a better philosophy?" What you describe isn't a philosophy at all to the people who end up going down that route. It's just the natural result of a cycle of Wanting and Getting. Our industries and governments like to reinforce it, because it suits their interests that other people live by those rules, but no one would ever claim consumerism as a guiding idea for their own life. Peps, Occam's Razor is surmised as: "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." But it only applies if all possible solutions are equal. 'Do nothing' is a crap solution to most real problems. Taoism is a crap solution to most real problems. There are demonstratably better ones that people avoid because they require more effort. Instead, they pursue simple solutions for the same reason they play the lottery - because they hope that there's a shortcut to what others have to work for. This 'let's be as lazy as possible' argument is pure decadence. Any kind of justice and equality in the world, even among a small community, requires hard work. People have given up their lives to improving other people's quality of life. It isn't something that just stays once it's there either - the natural tendency is towards selfishness, is for the rich and powerful (and the cunning) to cheat everyone else wherever possible to further improve their lot. "The wind blows this way, then that way" simply will not do. Neither will "Everyone's selfish, so if I do whatever I want, I'm no worse than anyone else." The only thing that stands against your 'capitalist tide' is people being prepared to make an effort, rather than blithely accept the world for what it is. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
Taoism is an approach to solving problems, not a solution to problems (except perhaps for the problem of problem-solving)… subtle difference! [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

An approach to solving problems whose guiding principle is 'shit happens'? Useless. The only thing this sort of stuff works for is personal stress levels and health. In that respect, it's only as good as any relaxation regime. Zen Buddhism is better, depending on the way you interpret it. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
Enzo v2.0
Anonymous's picture
"...the inevitable result of the minority pursuing wealth with more fervour is the minority owning everything, and believing that they deserve to, despite the fact there are people in the world who work far harder than them throughout the course of their lives and end up owning next to nothing. We're not too far removed from that situation now." Um, this is the way it's been for a long, long time. Not agreeing with it, not saying it'll never be changed, but it's certainly not something we're moving towards....it's a constant. The factories never 'went to the people' in 1917. Child poverty hasn't disappeared since 1997. Many (most?) world leaders are still fucking their people up the arse. Go out and try and fix it by all means, but don't claim the phenomenon or the 'resitance' are new or emerging. Enzo.. Read my rubbish novel as it happens! http://somesolitude.wordpress.com/
But it only applies if all possible solutions are equal. 'Do nothing' is a crap solution to most real problems. Have you ever tried it? I have and many worries seem to often resolve themselves naturally with little effort on my part or anyone else around me. Taoism is a crap solution to most real problems. There are demonstratably better ones that people avoid because they require more effort. Instead, they pursue simple solutions for the same reason they play the lottery - because they hope that there's a shortcut to what others have to work for. Taoism has little in common with playing the lottery. What do you think are the better and more hard-working solutions to problems? This 'let's be as lazy as possible' argument is pure decadence. Any kind of justice and equality in the world, even among a small community, requires hard work. How does being idle or lazy lead to immorality or an inferior state? I would think an idle 'live and let live' philosophy would promote justice and equality. Hard work leads to a mentality of resentment...'I work harder than so and so thus I deserve more than them'. How do you see hard work promoting justice and equality?
Wu wei is often misinterpreted. Here's an extract that **hopefully** sums it up better:- Wu Wei - Doing nothing. Action through Inaction. More like doing nothing which is of no use. . In the Tao Te Ching it is to solve problems while they are small and manageable. I think “Doing Nothing” is more a metaphor - doing the right things early, to apply the greatest leverage. Of course “Doing nothing” can be applied literally as well. How many times is it better to let an event run its course, and resolve itself, rather than be engaged? Willfully doing nothing is a choice as well, together with responsibilities. I had an episode at home recently which serves as a counter example. We decided to do some landscaping at the spur of the moment. What we had in mind turned out to be a much bigger job that we first thought. Because it wasn’t planned, I found that there was a lot of extra shuffling around that needed to be done. If I had planned, I would have realized the enormity of the job I was taking on. I would have planned the steps that needed to be done, and the job would have gone much smoother, with less effort, in less time. The Taoist can lead a life that can seem effortless because it is well ordered. He can appear to be spontaneous because he has a solid framework in which to live. - Sonshi.com. "Wealthy people are just like everybody else, they suffer from the same problems and same personality characteristics as the rest of society. What they are probably not (on average) is stupid or lazy." Well said, rd. I don't think any religious way advocates sitting around on your ass doing nothing, but deal with approaches to life that yield maximum benefit for the individual. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

"Um, this is the way it's been for a long, long time." The point is that there is more at stake now than ever. Better technology allows people to own more than they ever actually see or know they own, through corporations and the like. Third World Debt can potentially wreck more lives than slavery. "Have you ever tried it? I have and many worries seem to often resolve themselves naturally with little effort on my part or anyone else around me." I used the phrase 'real problems' to try to eliminate purely psychological issues. Doing nothing only works if the problem is part imagined. I'd like to see your resolve a severe lack of funds, a broken washing machine, a local crimewave or a moral dilemma by leaving things to 'resolve themselves naturally'. "How does being idle or lazy lead to immorality or an inferior state? I would think an idle 'live and let live' philosophy would promote justice and equality. Well, you're completely wrong. 'Live and let live' means exactly what it says - that you're doing nothing to promote justice and equality, or anything else - you're simply doing what suits you best. You let people get away with immoral acts as long as they aren't directed against you. You look out for number one. You don't concern yourself with other people's problems. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe
Enzo v2.0
Anonymous's picture
"The point is that there is more at stake now than ever. Better technology allows people to own more than they ever actually see or know they own, through corporations and the like." People have always said that things are worse in their time. And I don't agree that things are any worse now in terms of the 'reach' of ownership. British empire? Roman empire? Lots of profiteering out of distant lands then, too, no? Enzo.. Read my rubbish novel as it happens! http://somesolitude.wordpress.com/
I see you did not answer all my questions Mr Cade. I would love to hear your thoughts on the ones you omitted... I used the phrase 'real problems' to try to eliminate purely psychological issues. Doing nothing only works if the problem is part imagined. I'd like to see your resolve a severe lack of funds, a broken washing machine, a local crimewave or a moral dilemma by leaving things to 'resolve themselves naturally'. Well it happens that my washing machine did break recently so I've hand-washed since and I've realised I don't actually need a washing machine. It's much quieter without the whiney thing and an almost zen-like experience and the clothes actually come out cleaner. Well, you're completely wrong. 'Live and let live' means exactly what it says - that you're doing nothing to promote justice and equality, or anything else - you're simply doing what suits you best. You let people get away with immoral acts as long as they aren't directed against you. You look out for number one. You don't concern yourself with other people's problems. So tell me, how do you see hard work promoting justice and equality? Do you think someone who works 50+ hours per week and spends their leisure time shopping and catching up on chores concerns themselves with other people's problems or prevents people from performing immoral acts?

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