In Pursuit of Laziness

Can't be bothered to read back over the thread so excuse me if this has already been asked. But to those from the idling thing: Do you work? How do you pay your rent / mortgage? Bills? Pepsoid: I thought you worked in an office somewhere--how does it all fit together? Enzo.. Read my rubbish novel as it happens! http://somesolitude.wordpress.com/

"Mr Cade you seem to be the one with all the pity." To be honest, I just think the slacker attitude is shitty, and I don't have much pity. It seems to me a case of, "I'll argue in favour what suits me best" rather than, "I'll try to get closer to the through argument". In other words, the argument for laziness is lazy. "You however appear to be arguing that anyone who doesn't work in a job they love is lazy." Well, no, seeing as I wrote a whole post explaining that not everyone gets the chance to do that, particularly if they prioritise other kind of work, like bringing up children, or extra-curricular pursuits. Pepsoid was trying to argue that any kind of work ethic in itself is evil, and a tool of capitalist slave-drivers. I've just been trying to point out that this is so much bull, and that work in general is good for us for many reasons. I also dislike this attitude because it *is* pure decadence. To even consider the idea that your life would be better if you slouched about and did nothing suggests obscene wealth. On all our parts. We had a discussion here on the money issue before, and I think it was pointed out (not by me) that things also change when you've got a family. Then you might pursue money rampantly not for wealth and status, but to give your family the best living conditions available. Maybe to give your partner more free time to actually spend time with your children. It just isn't as simple as 'careerists are bad' or 'careerists miss the fact that money isn't important'. Let's compare the father who sacrifices time he'd dearly like to spend with his children so that he can get them into a better school, or pay for a house in a nicer area, with the lazy, selfish father who can't be arsed and spends what money he earns down the pub, just because he finds that more relaxing. Who's the cunt there, eh? Bludgerallen: "To do as we truly wish...as long as others were were not hurt or harmed of course." But you're naive if you think that doing whatever you want to do doesn't affect other people all the time. We live unsustainable lifestyles - every measure you *don't* take to keep your consumption down takes advantage of the rest of the world's poverty. It's harder work to bike to work than it is to drive, for instance, so the lazy person drives until the oil runs out and screws up the atmosphere further. Nice one. Besides which, it's all very well for you, a decadent Westener living in relative luxury, to say, 'Hey, let's all be lazy', but you'd be the first to throw a strop if no one was manning your local takeaway, or sewing your cheap trainers together, or making sure you got electricity and clean water. Selfish much? Like it or not, there's a lot of truth in the 'everyone pitch in' philosophy. True, it suits authoritarian-style governments to emphasise that, but what they're doing is exaggerated a truth, rather than making it up out of thin air. It's like when Bush and Blair said that Saddam was a tyrant. They were pushing that because it suited their agenda, but that doesn't me that Saddam *wasn't* a tyrant. Many of us are lucky that we're allowed the freedom we are in terms of the range of careers and the free time we get. Our society still requires people to fulfil a vast range of drab jobs in order to operate. Lounging about because you can is kind of saying, "Fuck you, I don't have to work" to all the people who try to keep things ticking along for you. It's the kind of shitty attitude over-wealthy people have.... "why not offer philanthropic workaholics the opportunity to sponsor idlers?" ...so it doesn't surprise me that you'd suggest this. "In school we are conditioned with uniformity and conformity and then programmed to be easily absorbed into the insatiable fiscal monster which perpetuates the nightmare..." Where the hell did you go to school?? Doesn't sound like they're following the syllabus. At school, I was taught to say, "Fuck you" to my boss if there business wasn't ethical, as well as various other bits of decent advice. "If only your philosophy could be adopted by the masses of deluded fools who spend their lives in slavery to the work ethic. So sad." You should take a long look at your own vastly over-simplistic, ill thought out viewpoints before you go branding everyone else 'deluded fools'. Thinking your way to the truth of the matter often requires work, just like everything else. Many philosophers devote great portions of their life just to thinking, and still don't find the answers. So don't expect to have hit on eternal wisdom just by proliferating dull mantras like this. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

But there's hard work, and then there's hard work. I enjoy hard work, especially in the garden. Digging, pulling weeds, mowing grass; that's 'hard work', and gratifying at that. The best jobs I've had have pushed me, physically, emotionally, mentally: being a caseworker for refugees was extremely taxing, but god, I went home every single night drained and depleted and happier than a pig in a mudhole, because the work was worthwhile and didn't just benefit myself. This whole 'work is rubbish' attitude is mystifying; sure, most jobs have a greater or lesser element of drudgery about them, but it feels *good* to be productive, to earn one's keep in some way, shape or form. *Not* working (and by this I mean doing absolutely nothing, not even gardening) is not only boring, but soul-destroying. It has nothing at all to do with being a slave to the system.

spartarcad your words are sheer poetry. Your post would indeed inspire me to burn my plough and instead scatter a handful of seeds to the wind as fits with nature.

Verily Spartacard the profundity within the simplicity of your gentle message is poetic...the deranged workaholic is unable to comprehend the beauty of idleness. Mr. Cade I pray that one day the sheer futility of striving comes to you in a moment of clarity...you mock the over-simplistic philosophy of idling, yet the irony is that the idling philosophy is very simple! In answer to your question Enzo, I only work part-time at the moment which just keeps me above the breadline, but I will be returning to study next year and will work less hours...I am not ambitious and not impressed or intimidated by strivers... A life of decadence would be blissful! A life devoted to pleasure! Not a life of boring rules and regulations...those bland production- line bores in suits comparing CV's, forever competing and trying to out-do, out-buy or out-wit...

"...I am not ambitious and not impressed or intimidated by strivers..." "the deranged workaholic" "the masses of deluded fools who spend their lives in slavery to the work ethic" There's a lot of this kind of us & them / persecution complex nonsense. I couldn't give a fuck if you worked for exxonmobil or sat on your arse all day, wanking. I'm no workaholic, but I apply myself to things that I do in and out of work. That's got nothing to do with 'the man' or sucking the corporate cock of satan (I've not worked in the private sector and I live quite simply) - it just means I engage with what I do. I think you lot like to be part of a little gang - no doubt many of you will go on to find Scientology or similar. I also suppose more than a few of you were bullied through school and don't have too many friends outside of World of Warcraft. But having said that, I don't really care. Regardless, I see that none of you seem to practice what you preach too well anyway so the whole argument is somewhat redundant. Enzo..

"Those who refuse to join in the 'work force' are condemmed as lazy." I'm condemning no-one, I'm just asking: How do you buy food and pay rent if you don't work? And how does pepsoid's office job fit in to a life of idleness? Enzo.. Read my rubbish novel as it happens! http://somesolitude.wordpress.com/

LOL...Enzo...I will resist the temptation to exchange profanities with you you slimy wog cunt but will clarify a few points for you... I was expelled from a few schools for kicking the shit of smartarses that thought they were tough...after leaving school I was constantly in trouble with the police for a variety of anti-social behaviours which ultimately led to 2 periods of imprisonment...in prison i was charged with inciting a riot and refused to work in there too... I had a whale of a time in nightclubs in Melbourne with great drugs, gorgeous girls and crazy mates...I lived with a call-girl and life was one great party! I have just turned 40 and have been married for almost 10 years...I turned away from the lifestyle that i was living when i got married, but still have strong non-conformist inclinations...if what i post offends you i couldn't give a fuck! I'd prefer to exchange philosophies in a civilised manner...but, if you wish to throw the shit around then expect some back wogboy...

""Those who refuse to join in the 'work force' are condemned as lazy." I'm condemning no-one, I'm just asking: How do you buy food and pay rent if you don't work?" Enzo did you bother to read my whole post or did you just scan it for lines that you could rail against? Go back and read it and see if you think I am condemning you. But I do work, to answer your previous question. I teach English in Japan and with the free time I have I study the Noh theatre. I often go to the US (with others) to perform and teach traditional Japanese music in universities. really have very few days when I don't have to do something but I like my life but that does not stop me from extolling the virtues of being Idle. Indeed, I spent many a idle day even week before I decided to leave the country that gave the world mass production and do something that I wanted to.

"Enzo did you bother to read my whole post" No. I said before that I coudn't be bothered to read back over everything. "did you just scan it for lines that you could rail against?" No. It just kinda leapt out at me. I like the sound of the work you do. But it sounds to me like by idleness you mean 'doing nothing when there's nothing to be done.' Surely that's a truism? Or have I misunderstood again? Allan... Regarding "If what I post offends you", I'm not offended. Regarding the rest of your life story: Good for you. Just one question: Where did 'wogboy' come from? Enzo.. Read my rubbish novel as it happens! http://somesolitude.wordpress.com/

There's a lot of this kind of us & them / persecution complex nonsense. ... I think you lot like to be part of a little gang - no doubt many of you will go on to find Scientology or similar. I also suppose more than a few of you were bullied through school and don't have too many friends outside of World of Warcraft. But having said that, I don't really care. Well that's certainly a colourful argument...it has no bearing on the claims made however. That something is not true for you is no basis to reject it outright as being false. Also that one or more of 'the gang', only 2 of whom I know of mind you, may have a job does not prove the claims made thus far to be false. I don't think anyone has argued that some money is not required to live. I presently work but will be leaving my employment very soon. I keep my spending as low as possible, grow about 1/3 of my food with plans to increase that amount, and will resort to some short-term contract work or odd jobs when funds run low.

Doesn't really matter what wogboy means Enzo...I just got very annoyed at your generalisations. It would be nicer if we are able to have robust debates without resorting to profanities and puerile name-calling. I apologise for responding in the way that i did. I suppose i have always been a bit rebellious and resented being compelled to do that which i did not want to do...the choices that i made were not good ones which i only came to understand in my late 20's...while i did make a nuisance of myself and hurt a lot of people directly, and indirectly, i also hurt myself by being so determined to not capitulate to what was expected of me. Having children merely complicates matters all the more as i will not be advocating a lifestyle which entirely rejects what the herd are clamouring for. I am fascinated by the fact that some people completely embrace the consumerist/careerist lifestyle...

'Wog is also a slang term in Australian English originally denoting Australians of South East European ancestry, more recently also those from the Middle East. This meaning came into popular use in the 1950s when Australia accepted large numbers of immigrants from Southern Europe. Although originally used pejoratively, the term is increasingly used more affectionately, especially by the individuals the term is used to describe. Wog is a word with definite and widespread currency in contemporary Australian English, and for the most part it is rarely considered to be the sort of slur or insult that it remains in other parts of the Anglosphere.' from Wikipedia. Oh, puhleeze.

I got a copy of The Beatles 'Love' album last night. Mr. Martin, it's official, you are the sixth Beatle. It's an audio montage par excellence, btw, and highly worthy. It's one of the most emotionally stirring albums I've heard in a long while. That aside, the album opens with a mystifying solitary vocal chorus of John, Paul and George singing the opening lines of 'Because' and the lyrics are as follows:- Because the world is round it turns me on Because the world is round...aaaaaahhhhhh Because the wind is high it blows my mind Because the wind is high......aaaaaaaahhhh Love is all, love is new Love is all, love is you Because the sky is blue, it makes me cry Because the sky is blue.......aaaaaaaahhhh I was listening to this, headphones wrapped snuggly round my ears, at roughly 4am this morning. Imo, there's no better time to become intimate with music and therefore yourself. My eyes welled-up and a little tear rolled down my cheek as I listened to this angelic choir of Liverpudlians echoeing through the ages and I thought to myself: we get so caught-up in things that are petty and totally pointless, rushing here and rushing there, and sometimes we fail to just stop, sit back, and look around us and go, "wow! Yeah! This is what it's about." Kinda put things into perspective for me. p.s. - the crying may have been because I've not had any duloxetine for 6 days :-0 There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Yan I know what you mean. For me it's sunday afternoon lazing about listening to Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds...The Boatman's Call...

"But it sounds to me like by idleness you mean 'doing nothing when there's nothing to be done" I like that way of putting it. And how few people are able to achieve this! From my observations people are at their wits end to stay 'busy' checking their phone mail, calling someone, anyone on their mobile phone, posting nonsense on forums (oops!) well, you know what I mean!

Allan...apology accepted and I apologise too for my generalisations and insults. Xman: I agree with what you just posted entirely. I would say, knowing when to 'do' and when not to 'do' is important. I've said myself many times that there isn't enough 'just sitting' these days. There is still a culture of it in some continental European countries, but it doesn't happen here. By the same token, though, engaging in 'doing' is important too, and I don't mean consumerism or even work for the most part, I just mean going out or getting involved with things like writing or having a passion for films or sport or whatever else. Enzo..

Enzo: I would agree with that too. It could be the corollary to what you said before: doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done, or something like that. I think the difficulty is deciding what needs to be done. And that's a value judgement that everyone make for themselves by sitting quietly and listening to their inner voice Say, I'm starting to think we can all be friends here. Or am I just a cock-eyed optimist?

Here's an excerpt from a book I've been reading this afternoon. It's from 'Faust - stretch out time' by Andy Wilson. "Our age creates a surplus of death, inasmuch as we inherit a kind of living death as our birthright under capitalism. A commodity economy requires the walking dead to keep things ticking over. As this requirement is the first principle of the economy, huge numbers of specialists are kept busy clearing a route for the funeral march, erecting signposts and way stations and lining the pavement to cheer the rest on. Universities, advertising agencies, government departments, political parties and media corporations work to smooth its path and keep things running to order. At the entrance to the economy is a sign announcing: "Welcome to Death." ' There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Idleness is fine in moderation. Beyond that, it becomes depressing for many people. This has nothing to do with outside pressures - it’s the lack of that sense of satisfaction you feel when you’ve ‘achieved’ something – whatever task that is. Years ago I was kept on at a sister company of one that had gone bust. They didn’t actually have a job for me to do (they were supposedly figuring that out). The upshot was that for about three months, I commuted back and forth to Bank everyday to sit in an office and play Klondike. Although the pay was good, and I liked playing Klondike, I resigned. They were not at all surprised. The idea of a strong work ethic being a ‘virtue,’ may well come from the reality that, in many instances, if someone is dicking about and avoiding work, someone else has to pick up their slack. I used to work with a girl who chatted most of the day, worked at a snail’s pace, always had an excuse to leave half way through the afternoon and took innumerable sickies. The fact that she was a chirpy little bugger only increased the aggravation of those around her. ~ www.fabulousmother.com

A friend of mine who does very high-level consultation on what I guess you could call power in the workplace says that the ideal work:rest ratio is 3:2, three days of work then two of rest or three weeks of straight work followed by two of rest. It works less well at longer intervals (like three months of balls-out work followed by two months of doing nothing). That being said, I feel very strongly that the way 'working life' is structured in this society is deeply, deeply flawed (hamster-wheel rat-race working to survive and not much time to enjoy it etc); I rather think the Spanish and the French have a much better grip on the so-called 'work-life balance'; Brits and Yanks most of whom have no balance whatsoever unless they pay dearly for it. I begin to resent it more and more; I enjoy my 'idle' time immensely as I get very little of it, especially during the week. I keep trying to talk Mr. Archergirl into moving somewhere more southerly, like Andalucia, where it's warm and they take very long, relaxed lunch hours, but he's dead against it as his language abilities are about on par with a chicken's.

Pepsoid>"...but I feel very strongly that we should not be driven by guilt; that guilt is an extremely poisonous and useless emotion " One can't live in a state of denial peps...Guilt is a normal human emotion and exists for a purpose. Guilt will assist a person in having a sense of moral responsibility. A lack of this sense of moral responsibility is the hallmark of a psychopath. Get in tune with your guilt and embrace it, for it will keep you a sane person. It may be one of the most important emotions to possess. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Guilt is not a simple emotion. It is important to look into yourself and understand why you are feeling guilt. It can be healthy when the reason for it is that you are doing something that deep down you feel is wrong. But it can also be a result of outside pressure that threatens your self-esteem if you don't do what is expected. Soldiers in war feel a strong sense of guilt if they don't follow orders, even when those orders are to massacre innocent people. Of course they feel guilt if they do it anyway. It is very complex thing. The important thing is to know yourself. And to do that you be acting automatically. You simply have to get in the habit of quieting your mind and listening to your inner voice. There is more of beauty in a moment's silence than in all the works of tongue or pen...

Sorry folks, I meant to say this: "The important thing is to know yourself. And to do that you can't be acting automatically" There is more of beauty in a moment's silence than in all the works of tongue or pen...

Guilt ‘leads to everyone in the office working too hard, everyone knowing that they work too hard, but no one being willing to do anything about - except perhaps moan to each other over tea and biscuits.’ Er, not in my experience. Employers demanding too much of their employees can make someone work too hard. The need for extra cash can make someone work too hard. The self-inflicted one-upmanship of the 'who comes in first, leaves last,' variety can make someone work too hard. Refusing to feel guilty about not pulling your weight can compel someone else to work too hard. There’s a big difference between people being ultra efficient and getting through their workload quicker than anyone else and what you said earlier, i.e: "It is about not feeling guilty if you are choosing not to work as hard as those around you; not feeling guilty if you don’t “care” as much as those around you; not feeling guilty if you are not “contributing” as much as those around you." Everyone's salary comes out of the same pot, Peps. ~ www.fabulousmother.com