Beyond belief: Science, religion, reason and survival

'...Science, religion, reason and survival...' I haven't read the article but my instant reaction is..I can see the connection between science and reason. I can see the connection between relligion and survival. But I can see nothing to link the two areas of thought at all, though I guess survival does have a scientific link. OK, fuck it, religion is, and always has been, a fear-inducing method of controlling weak-minded people. The only aspect of it that really baffles me is why so many intelligent people, including many that I know personally, fall for it. There was a time when it worried me that maybe there was something there that I couldn't see, but having witnessed how religions have worked in my not inconsiderable lifetime, I now believe they are indeed bullshit. Thanks for giving me yet another opportunity to offer my erudite opinion, Jude.

Richard Dawkins said, "No doubt there are many people who do need religion, and far be it from me to pull the rug from under their feet." After reading his book, 'The God Delusion' (which is excellent, btw) I was surprised at this comment from Dawkins. He's not mellowing with age is he? There's a story in said book concerning a US teenager who was suspended from school for wearing a t-shirt with "Homosexuality is a sin, Islam is a lie, abortion is murder" written on it. Now the parents sued the school. They couldn't base their case on the First Amendment because it excludes "hate speech" so how did they win their case? The argument for the 'right for religious freedom'! So this guy now gets to wear that t-shirt. This is an example of what I'm strongly against: religion trumps all. It shouldn't be granted such a status in the 21st century. My wife's father is a lay-preacher (whatever that is) and he's the warmest, most compassionate person I've ever met. His belief and the security in his belief radiates from him. Even when my daughter stays over at weekends she returns with some of that warmth. How do I deny such subtle beauty? I can't. I've had transcendental experiences myself which only added to the conviction that our senses only let through a very narrow slit of light of All That Is and this in itself confirms that we can only make 'scientific' observations and measurements based on what we're 'permitted' to experience. So I can't bluntly disregard spirituality, despite the tendency for humans to manipulate the spiritual politically, financially or culturally. Peeling away at the complex layers of what religion did and has become during history exposes the ways in which, as missi said above, it has been fucked about with to reach certain ends...but in its purest form the questions it asked formed the very basis for what led scientists to become curious in the first place. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Religion is unbannable. It is fundamental to who we are. If we bring down one form of organised religion, another will come along to take its place. Humans need to know the unknowable. We also like to organise ourselves. A few people decide they like chess, they form a chess club. A few people decide they believe in a single, omnipotent god, whose son came to Earth and sacrificed himself on a cross to absolve us all of our sins, they create Christianity. Does religion serve a purpose? It wouldn’t exist if it didn’t. Would we be better off without it? Bit like asking if we’d be better off without cheese. It’s so ingrained in the structure of humanity - how we feel, think and live... How can we possibly imagine a world without it? {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

What did Einstein say about Science and Religion? I am still of the belief that we are dumbasses to think human beings are the centre of the universe. That is the problem, in general. We don't realise how small we are. There is no reason for there not to be a 'god'... in fact, reason and science really suggests there are (just ask Einstein and Hawkins et al)... it's just our idea of a human centric God that has not been proved. And I truly don't believe that all things done 'in the name of religion' are bad things... there are millions of people on this planet living perfectly kind and generous lives in the name of religion, but they don't get mentioned on TV, and hate is a bigger seller. You know, the key tenet of all religions seems to be 'love thy neighbour'... or 'do unto others' or 'all people are equal'... that, by reason alone, makes sense. It makes sense that if we don't like thigns other people do we shouldn't do them to other people. It makes sense for human beings to look out for themselves... And to be honest, most wars have not been in the name of religion. Religion has been used as an excuse... World War I - not about religion... World War II - not about religion... The War on Terror - not about religion, though they would like us to think it is... And there was a thing on the news today about how Christmas decorations have been banned so as not to offend non Christians. But you know what, I do not know one single Muslim, Jew, Sikh, Buddhist or other who is against Christmas decorations and nativities... it is all whipped up by the press to make us believe religion is hateful and narrowminded. I will concur that the way it is applied sometimes - often maybe - is hateful and narrowminded... but not religion itself. But then, as we all know, I am an RE teacher... and the 2 core standards we have are 'learning about religion' and 'learning from religion'.

I think science is becoming the new religion. People accept what a scientist says without hesitation though in the next generation a new scientist usually comes along and proves the former one wrong, Science is not equipped to deal with the truth, the most illuminating thing it is capable of is making a lightbulb.

"So I can't bluntly disregard spirituality, despite the tendency for humans to manipulate the spiritual politically, financially or culturally. " That is a good point, yan. And one must remember that science is at least as likely to be manipulated as religion. After one has had a glimpse of the spiritual side of the universe it is impossible to accept that scientific evidence is the necessary basis for truth.

Too true. Talking of paranoia...I'm a bit suss of this 'moon base' that NASA is embarking on. Seems a little pre-meditated, what with global warming and increased nuclear tensions. Hmm. I can see it now: the world in the grip of irreversible destruction and meanwhile, in a cloud of fire, 5 rockets lift off at Kennedy Space Station, destination: self sufficient moon base. Now if I could choose, who would I send up in those 5 rockets. Apart from myself, who would I choose as worthy of carrying the human torch into the cosmic future? Compare that to who WOULD get a ticket and things start to look bleak. :) There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

That sounds like something straight out of Phillip K. Dick!

"And there was a thing on the news today about how Christmas decorations have been banned so as not to offend non Christians. But you know what, I do not know one single Muslim, Jew, Sikh, Buddhist or other who is against Christmas decorations and nativities... it is all whipped up by the press to make us believe religion is hateful and narrowminded." The hilarious thing is that these stories and the predictable reactions from all sides are becoming almost as much of a Christmas tradition as Turkey, tinsel and drunken family punch-ups. I'm sure will soon have overly officious council officers claiming their right to express their religious belief in banning things for spurious reasons by banning things for spurious reasons every Christmas whether or not the things they're banning actually have anything to do with Christmas at all. For example, "this Christmas, the London Borough of Brent will be banning jelly babaies to avoid offending those with a religious objection to the simulation of cannabalism" - or something.

'Some very good points all round. The things that are done 'in the name of religion' bother me less than the mindset created by fanaticism.' There's a report on Sky news this morning about a bald, Welsh Elvis impersonator who has received death threats because some 'extreme fans' believe that he is 'disrespecting the king'. Put into a religious context it highlights how fookin' ridiculous fanatacism is. Even more so with religion. It also provides a modern example of how this type of pyschosis can breed. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

"In 50 years time, the RC church in this country will exist only nominally." I'm not sure, my guess - not strongly backed up by factual evidence - is that the established churches will maintain a significant rump of adherents. Certainly 200,000 or so each for the Catholics and the Anglicans. Not because people will necessarily continue to believe in the God aspect of religion but because some people enjoy the traditions and routine. From what I can gather from the discussions we've had, me and my mum have extremely similar views on the existence of God and possibilities of an afterlife but she's a practising Christian who's on loads of church committees and I'm an atheist-leaning agnostic who only attends church for weddings and funerals. There's what people believe and then there's how they choose to reflect those beliefs in practice. I think this applies to the 100 million or so apocalyptic Americans as well. Most of them aren't giving all their worldly goods to the poor on the basis that the world will be ending soon.

I wonder how many people say they are "a Christian," without really giving a thought to what they actually believe in? {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Can We Ever Really Know the Truth About Anything?)

According to the radio this morning, service attendance for xmas and easter is at a record high. I'm going to chruch tonight but only for the music. It's been a while, I'm hoping I won't catch fire as I walk through the doors.

Science has been a religion since at least the 19th Century, so it's a little late for that prognostication. "You don't need the light of the Lord to read the handwriting on the wall." Copies of Warsaw Tales available through www.new-ink.org

"Science has been a religion since at least the 19th Century, so it's a little late for that prognostication" But how many people are aware of it? By Columbus's time it had been known that the world was round for centuries but that intelligence somehow eluded the medieval European who was hypnotised by religion. And now we know that our living habits are unhealthy for the earth, which we are intimately connected to, but most of us seem not to have heard that message either and still operate under the delusion that we need more convenience and more economic growth. And they still accept whatever science says as dogma. There is more of beauty in a moment's silence than in all the works of tongue or pen...

I have a very small mouse in my kitchen. No kidding, I just saw him scurry across the floor. Where's the shotgun? Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/