Say what you think V What they want to hear

I want to see more interesting posts here. And a bit of brutal honesty would do that i think. It seems this forum is just for stroking each other. "this is great, worth a cherry. Here’s a spelling mistake." I look over the recently added when ever i drop by, and don’t bother reading if the extract is badly written. That’s just me though. What i should do is comment and post up some good articles i have, to help them.

People tend to crit something they like, but is in need of a little more. Or say something is great when they think it is. When something is terrible, it gets no comment. Unless you are Biggus. But there is already a longggg thread for that. Personally, I like crit, tell me where I went wrong. I'll happily do the same for you! :)

yes, Lisa, but this has never been a site for in-depth crits and never will be - those sites exist all over the internet and are, usually, full of shit and internicene warfare (even on the 'nicest' sites there is usually more back massaging than genuine crit). abc is more about awaiting that elusive cherry from some in-a-good-mood-ed and then, if you get one, running around with your pants on your head for a day. And that's all really.

Radiodumdo, I have had some very good advice for my writing over the year or so that I have been a member. Finding this site was a pivotal in my writing. There is some *back massaging* but there are some gems of crit. Lisa

Good for you Lisa! Although I think you miss my main point which addresses the why and wherefore of abctales existance.

that spell checker is rubbish isn't it? existence.

maybe if there were incentives to give good crits, we would get more involvement. Some way of counting the crits u give. (not just one liner "grammer check" crits) Badges on ur profile Ranks of sorts. they do it on the chuck palahnuik .net workshop site. though u have to pay for that now :< There system is really good, its pumping with ppl. Shame they changed it to pay site.

1212

All of this is actually really helpful. I am definitely on the side of wanting all kinds of crit. I don't really want to write to have my ego massaged. I want to write things that people want to read. I imagine the process of getting there to involve a lot of: A. Writing rubbish B. Being told its rubbish C. Working out why its rubbish D. Getting slightly better E. Go to A. If I ever get to run around with my trousers upon my bonce, it will be a day worth the time.

I dont know about warnings. thats a moderaters thing anyway It would just give the reviewer somehting other then the satisfactiuon of helping someone. And yeah... known to be good at critting Im sure there are ppl known for it now... but only to the old regulars. Its almost like a little writing game, with ur chara leveling up. Some will hate the idea and say itll make ppl post crap crits just to get rewards. Maybe so in some cases (unlikely, cuz everyone one will know there being a tool.) but it will increase the amount of posts and help ppl get.

Ive just noticed u can rate ppls stuff now with stars... thats a good start :)

Good question, Phil. The crit thing has always been problematic, as far as I’m aware. Imo, the reason why it often distils down to merely flagging something you like, or making minor suggestions, is this: Not everybody wants crit. Not knowing who does and who doesn’t is never a problem as long as: 1. You think the piece is great, so you flag it to say so. 2. You think the piece has real potential, but you have a few suggestions to add. That leaves the pieces of writing that you feel are significantly flawed, or downright rubbish. This is where it gets tricky. If the author hasn’t specifically asked for feedback, you’re treading a minefield by posting a negative crit. In the past, some unsolicited negative reviews – even if they’ve contained constructive criticism – have met with hostility and resentment. Not all the time, by any means, but their tendency to produce long, repetitive, confrontational threads as to who has the right to say what to whom, makes them disproportionately noticeable. The same reaction can occur even when someone *does* ask for feedback. Criticism on a public forum can be harder to take than people think, especially if the writer concerned genuinely believes their writing to be of a good standard. Unless you’re aware of the author’s depth of skin in advance, negative criticism can easily be met with an indignant response or, in my experience, no response at all. Not everybody who posts their writing looks at the forums. Maybe *yet another* forum for, ‘I would genuinely appreciate honest feedback and promise not to throw an almighty tantrum if you tell me to rip it up and start again,’ would be the answer. Many members do email authors privately about their writing, a level of crit which wouldn’t be apparent by looking at the forums. ~ www.fabulousmother.com

2Lou, very nicely put. A particular pressure I find within my self is that of seeing 'only positive crit' and absolutely not agreeing. I feel it is my duty to say something. As a person I can understand why people may not want crit/negative crit but as a writer I just don't understand it. I positively prefer negative crit to positive because it helps me improve. Obviously I like to hear when someone likes something, and what particularly it is that they like. But to hear what they don't like, and how they think it could be better is hugely more useful. One side of this, that is touched on in the 'code of conduct' is the time it takes to crit. To read a piece, analyse it for good and bad points then structure that into a polite crit takes time. Time some people don't have. So I can see why its 'nice or nothing'. If you say something nice, and quick, people are more likely to come and crit your own stuff and say soemthing nice. To spend the energy saying something negative (but still constructive) may fall on deaf ears and possibly be a complete waste of energy. Sometimes I write too much. ;)

I am really pleased that this debate is taking place - we are now in a position to make changes to the site so that crit is more easily accessible. Chuck in all your ideas - we do have plans but we are very willing to take on new thoughts. cheers, The Management

Whilst I think honest crit is useful (all too often readers blame themselves because their attention started to wander halfway through, when in fact it's because the middle section needs trimming) it also places a responsibility on writers to exercise maturity and consider the source when responding to feedback. Incidents of authors pulling all their work off the site because of less than unanimous praise have created a slightly recalcitrant atmosphere. And, for what it's worth, I think 'I enjoyed this. Really good.' is a reasonable comment on a feedback thread. Sometimes I don't have anything hugely shrewd to contribute but I'd still like to register my appreciation - and as an author I know that it means a lot when people tell me they read something and liked it, even if they don't have suggestions for improvement.

How about linking the story to the thread more effectively. Rather than having to copy paste to forums, heap the thread with the entry. Check out H2g2 for this type of msging. They deal with non fiction, but its all peer run, and it works pretty good. U also get to customise ur profile to some extent. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2 I’m not saying copy it... but it might give the web designer a few ideas. The peer review section is interesting. the community helps each other polish the entries and then an editor picks it up, formats it correctly and then publishes it officially. So rather then getting a mass of entries some good some bad, anyone just wanting to read can go straight to the good ones and search by subject. Its like a cherry, but set aside, and made a permanent part of the site. Their fiction section is pitiful, and needs a lot of work.

Hi Lucas, you've just voiced my opinion for me! I've seen a few websites for pop song lyrics, where the lyrics are at the top of the page, and below that, visitors' comments are placed. This makes it easier to go back to the work in question and check out particular references that have surfaced in the comments, because everything is on the same page. Of course, the down side of this is you may miss the immediacy of the current forum, where lots of people simultaniously argue about why they like/dislike something.

Just to put my mind at rest, what happens when someone gives your work stars? Does it show anywhere other than when you're in the story? And from my own little experiment, it just seems to remember the last score anyone's given the piece. Is it supposed to produce an average? Oh, and one of my pieces of work now has LOADS of ratings - all by me. Surely you shouldn't be allowed to rate your own work???

And pressing F5 when you are reading something increments the number of reads by one. This could artificially inflate the number of reads for people's work. I believe that a single read per user per day should be the maximum on a single tale. If the same reader visits the same piece in the same day, it should not affect the read. Any opinions on this? I know it could be argued that reading something only once is not always enough...

If a person revisits the work, it should be counted. But somehow, we should not affect our own reads. So, how did you discover the F5 thingy?

I discovered it when trying to break the star-rating thingy, which should also be banned for your own work! (make a mental note to make the most of this knowledge before they fix it...)

Profiles have been updated now to... looking better, and with more info exciting times for abctales ay

Wow, that took a while to read. Personally I am very much up for serious crit, though genuine pats on the back are always welcome. I like the idea of being rated in some way for your crit, as it does take some time to give a helpful considered one. Recognition for good critique is surely deserved.

How about "critique of the week"?

I agree with rokkitnite. Honest, constructive criticism is what it should be about - not, as someone else suggested, 'brutal honesty'. Anyone starting out in writing is liable to write bad stuff. We've all done it. Some of us still do. I certainly know I do. But to wade in to a beginner with 'this is crap', 'you've got no idea what you're doing', etc. isn't very constructive. Sure, it might prompt them to prove themselves capable of better. But it might just as easily lead them to give up entirely. No bad thing, some might think. Aren't there enough bad writers out there? Probably... but there's only one way they're likely to get better, and that's to keep doing it with the right sort of criticism and encouragement. I'd like to think that sites like this are about nurturing talent, as well as showcasing it.

One way, which some members do here, is to build up a rapport with one or two other members/users, and e-mail crit, suggestions and ideas. This can then be more personal and honest, if one is more comfortable doing it that way. This site, and this forum, can be as tough or soft as you want it to be. But it IS supposed to be fun, isn't it?

I agree Josie. The important thing is to be fair. I give both hard and soft crit in equal measure, by trying to guage how it will be received. If you get the impression they're new to it all then it's best to be as gentle as you can, while still saying what's good and bad about their work. If you think you're dealing with a hard-nosed hack who should know better, or that has submitted a piece that is below-par for them, then you need to tell them straight.

Still depends on what you mean by 'telling them straight', Gareth. 'Come on, Alan, this is complete bollocks' isn't criticism (unless it's from someone you know well enough to know the vein in which it's meant). On the other hand, 'I wasn't happy about the way you did so and so because, in my opinion, such and such didn't work' is. Give reasons. Back up arguments. But if that's what you mean by 'telling them straight', then fine. Unfortunately, some people interpret it differently. "This site, and this forum, can be as tough or soft as you want it to be." Do you really think you have that choice, Josie? I mean, if you're a new writer posting something and asking for crit, do you think anyone's going to take notice of you if you say 'I don't want you to say anything too tough - I want this site to be soft with me'? To me, that's offering yourself up to the jackals. Most people are fair in their criticisms. Some people, though, use the anonymity of the forums to be deliberately abusive - saying the sort of stuff you just wouldn't say if the person was sitting in front of you. Yeah, of course it's supposed to be fun - why do it otherwise? Fun doesn't need to mean that it can't, therefore, be constructive. Okay, then. Tell me I'm talking complete bollocks. I can take it!

You're right Alan. I didn't make myself clear. I do try to give reasons. I think it's the latent academic in me: don't bother giving an opinion if you can't back it up. There is a lot of abuse on here, but thankfully it doesn't tend to be on this forum - you can go to the "general discussion" forum and get eaten alive (in an obligate carnivorous type way!)

Yum!

A lot of excellent and fair comment on here - we are reading it all and taking it on board. I am very keen to improve the community facilities on ABC and this would appear to be the way forward. Much of what you request will come about in the next month or so. Keep the ideas coming! Regards, The Management

I don't think you have complete control over arseholes, but people generally tread more carefully with newcomers. And the more you get stuck in, the more will come your way. If you crit other people's work, they may then have the confidence to say something back. And, I think it's cool to just say if I like something. Not all writers are great crits, and vice versa. I also tend to veer away from the discussion forum (and threads like this!) for personal reasons. Although I have been on this site for a while, I don't feel I am a real prescence here. If you are more vocal, and one of the "community" (eek!) your work may get noticed and commented on a bit more. Or, perhaps not... I think I'm going to go away now.

I think I mentioned it somewhere else, but what about having a "workshop" section? In there you can submit an unfinished piece of work which you're struggling with and let users and editors roll up their sleeves and take it to bits, put it back together and/or offer honest advice. Only those willing to accept advice and help would be likely to put their work in there. If this was only visible/available to registered users then it would remain a more private, behind-the-scenes affair, so nobody would feel they were being castigated in front of millions. I know I would find this useful sometimes. Anyone else have an opinion?

This does occasionally happen behind the scenes I think, 4G, via e-mail between consenting punters. For me that works better on a small scale; I 've been in writing groups where I 've litened to ten different opinions about how to start a piece. It drove me nuts. I picked out the ones who sussed what I was actually trying to do and worked with them, and dropped the ones who wanted me to write a piece they wanted to write. Fish about, take a chance and e-mail.

Good afternoon, I wish there was more honest brutal say what you think feedback. I am a weak position from which to criticise having somewhat abandoned commenting on the forums. From a personal view point I cannot stand the idea of people reading my stuff and thinking what a pile of shit and not saying anything. I consider myself to be very lucky in having Spack as my harshest critic and would not have got any better if he had not been brutally honest. I spose it is different for everyone, but I find I thrive off rising to the challenge and consider any time invested in reading my stuff to be a immensely generous investment by a reader. I am not suggesting outright negative soul strippery and I think that Tony's advice of 'careful these are peoples dreams upon which you walk' is wise and kind. I do not however think it encourages people to necessarily improve. However, there are many that would argue that the site is not sposed to forfill that function. So, back to square one really. I would also love to simply tell people exactly what I think of their writing but I find myself constantly caught in dillema between the arrogance of presuming my opinion is right, and not wanting to inflict an opinion upon anyone that may not be constructive. I think lots of people who use this site are scared of being thought of as bad guys. There was for a while group defense of some pretty shocking stuff, people getting shouted down for saying 'erm, actually I think this bit does not work, or this style might not suit you, or the topic is hackneyed' I kind of also think that if you put something in to a public forum you have to take whatever feedback is offered, it does not mean you have to absorb it. You cannae chase your poems or stories about wearing knee pads and carrying a comforter, thats what desk drawers are for. Tiny villages full of poems and stories without faces that cant quite get being born. Right, rant over. Feels excellent to get that off my chest. I apologise. Profusely. Span

"You cannae chase your poems or stories about wearing knee pads and carrying a comforter, thats what desk drawers are for. Tiny villages full of poems and stories without faces that cant quite get being born." That's going in my book of quotes for aspiring writers. Wonderful stuff there span. Cheers, Mark

Workshop section... thiats a good idea i think better then posting up a thread asking ppl to comment on ur work. (can be viewed as pushy) and better then picking an entry out u read and critting and the person not giving a damn. That would make the reward system easeir to establish, confining the rated crits to the workshop. ppl will still flag up good entries in these forums for cherry picking and the like. But there will be a place to go for those who really want the feed back too.

I think most people need a good kick up the bum. The sooner they get it the better for all. In the end it will always come, and its better that it happens early in the climb, when there is less far to fall. People who can't take a good kick need to take a good hard look at themselves. To me workshop sounds a little hairy fairy. Unless things got into the 'exercises' and 'structured practice' zone.

*This should have appeared before BBF's last comment. That gremlin's still in the works!* Okay, Phil... here's a little tale to balance things the other way a bit. The American writer Raymond Carver used to teach university creative writing courses to keep his head above water while he was on his way to becoming one of the finest American fiction writers of the 20th century. One of his students was the novelist Jay McInerney. McInerney berated Carver one day for going easy on a student who continually turned out poor work. Carver came back at him with a story: "Ray said he'd recently been a judge in a prestigious fiction contest. The unanimous winner, whose work has since drawn much praise, turned out to be a former student of his - probably the worst, least promising student he'd had in twenty years. "What if I had discouraged her?" he said." Presumably, by 'kick up the bum', you mean "Your writing's shit. Give up now, while the going's good." Would you really like it if someone said that to you? (Well, maybe you would. We all have different motivations.) Everyone's crap when they start. It's a given. Derivative, over-written, purple-prosey, lousy grammar and spelling, stereotyped characters, hackneyed, etc. Some, unfortunately (no names), remain lousy and go on to make millions. You don't have to 'slate' someone, as you put it, to tell them their stuff needs improving. Nor do you need to be dishonestly complimentary. It's called constructive criticism. Kicks up the bum - even figurative ones - are easier, of course.

Thanks for that, Mr Benefit; a point well put, and it echoes the guidelines of not trampling on dreams etc. I said it before, and it does seem to be stating the obvious, but i will say it again: most people are here for the fun of it, not to be subjected to a high-pressure writers-group hot-house, but help and nudges along the way are always welcome. Of course you can, like Phil, flag yourself up for hardcore crit and I'm sure you'll get it.

The difficulty here is that different people have different understanding of what it means to be writing and what this should entail. Some people treat writing as a craft, something that you work at over long periods of time, refining your technique, experimenting and learning. Some feel writing is a spontaneous outpouring of the human spirit and should be respected as such. Others don't see any need for criticism, but want encouragement. There are people who find it difficulty to disentangle themselves from their work, therefore a criticism of the work is a criticism of them. Often people are very confused about their purpose in writing, especially when emerging as a writer; are they writing for themselves, are they writing to change the world, are they going to be famous... A lot of the friction that goes on here comes from this confusion. A person asks whether anyone liked their story or poem. They don't regard writing a craft, they like writing things and showing them to people. The people they usually show them to aren't writers. The people they've shown them to are impressed, because they've never written themselves. 'That's so true and meaningful' they nod. The person then feels they may be onto something here, maybe they can make a living... The post on ABC and ask if anyone likes their work. They receive an honest opinion and critique from someone who can see writing as a craft, with suggestions for improvement. They are hurt and dejected, these people aren't supportive, they've stepped on her dreams. It's difficult, isn't it? I think an awareness of what someone was trying to do is always necessary, plus an idea of the realistic suggestions that could be offered. I always find that offering examples of the ways that others have tackled the same writing problem is a great way of helping people to develop their writing practice. My guide is always: How can I help to make this piece of writing the best piece of writing it can be, within the intentions of the author? The problem here is that writing isn't one thing, with one path of progression. Writing's an act, but the purpose, intent and application of that act are another thing. Cheers, Mark

Mm, it is difficult, Mark. What if we had little icons next to our names - colour coded in a traffic light type way: red = "I don't want feedback", amber = "be gentle with me", green = "go ahead, rip in to me, its the only way I'll improve".

"I think most people need a good kick up the bum. The sooner they get it the better for all. In the end it will always come, and its better that it happens early in the climb, when there is less far to fall. People who can't take a good kick need to take a good hard look at themselves." As Mark says, I think this very much depends on the situation. I wouldn't deliberately set-out to give a writer 'a good kick' unless: (a) they're a professional writer and they're being unprofessional and/or arrogant and delusional* or (b) they're a non-professional writer who's extremely arrogant and delusional. The problem is that - in many instances - friendly, useful constructive criticism can seem like 'a kick' if you've put your heart and soul into something and you think it's really good. I think Mark's position: "My guide is always: How can I help to make this piece of writing the best piece of writing it can be, within the intentions of the author?" is the best approach to aim for but it's obviously not an exact science. *I'm using delusional as in 'delusions of grandeur' rather than in a medical sense.

I think the 'traffic light' idea is a good one. They've got that on dA, but with 5 modes. You should be able to do it for each individual piece though - I know many of the serious writers here also put up the equivalent of rough sketches from time to time. It's not going to hurt their egos if people criticise those pieces, but it *is* a waste of time for the critic, who might have responded to the 'green light' next to the author's name and spent a good deal of time working through the flaws in, say, this: http://www.abctales.com/node/511028

Good point, Jack. I know some of my pieces are good, and I know others are half-arsed. I'm not sure what structure to suggest to accommodate all these different variables. I think a traffic light scheme per piece of work would get very confusing. I keep going back to my previous idea of having a "workshop" area on the site, where anything posted gets the "treatment" from anyone who cares to have an opinion. If a writer posts something there, rather than in the main section, it would be fair game; you could even introduce the piece with a bit od background: "I've run out of ideas in the final third," or "Is the ending a bit predictable?" - this would suggest the sort of critique you were after.

Although I like Rokkit's poem, I don't think I could comment much on it!