Hero/Heroine

Today is the feast day of St. Maximillian Kolbe a priest who died in Auschwitz after there was an escape from the camp. Camp protocol, designed to make the prisoners guard each other, required that ten men be slaughtered in retribution for each escaped prisoner. Francis Gajowniczek, a married man with young children was chosen to die for the escape and cried "My wife, my children". Maximilian volunteered to take his place and died from lethal carbonic acid injection after three weeks starvation and dehydration. (incidently Francis Gajowniczek survived the war and died in 1995). However, I retain some cynicism and say that extraordinary circumstances make ordinary people do extraordinary things. There is an hero in most of us but he or she is rarely required to express him/herself in us. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

That was a brave man. I'm reminded of Sidney Carlton in "A Tale OF Two Cities".

My vote gets split between Gandhi and Mandela. My webpage is at: http://www.bookscape.co.uk

My vote gets split between Gandhi, Mandela, Martin Luther King and Jamaica's national hero Samuel Sharpe. My webpage is at: http://www.bookscape.co.uk

I find the hagiography of Mandela utterly baffling. I am with you on Gandhi though, especially his advocacy of ahimsa (non-violence) in all circumstances. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

It's hard to say. Most of today's heroes are unsung on the sidelines. I have a lot of non-famous heroes I have met who have struggled against all the odds to live sober in spite of chronic addiction and then go on to help others. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

I admire Gandhi. He led a simple life and Jude has rightfully referred to his advocacy of Ahimsa. Mother Teresa - a humanitarian and advocate for the poor and the helpless.

"I find the hagiography of Mandela utterly baffling." I think Mandela is held up as a symbol of things that aren't necessarily directly related to the man himself. I am a fan of Mandela because I'm generally a fan of left-wing nationalist politicians, which is what he is. For a lot of white people in particular, professing admiration for Mandela is a way of saying 'I'm not racist' because he is held up as a symbol of the defeat of racism. In most cases, these Mandela fans are less keen on (and often actively opposed to) the majority of left-wing nationalist leaders in the developing world since the 1960s, many of whom had similar principles to Mandela - applied in different circumstances - and most of whom ultimately did not win.

When I lived in a 'dry house' the cook there was famously feminist, and when I mentioned that Martina Navratilova was a heroine of mine she snapped back "why use the diminutive, she's my hero"

Re Mandela etc... don't many (most?) "heroes" serve a largely symbolic role?? pe ps oid Blogs! "the art of tea" "that's an odd courgette"

The anti racism aspect of Mandela's cause was deeply admirable but the methods he employed to go about it were deplorable. He approved the Church street bombing - designed to maximise Afrikaner casualties including women and children. P.W. Botha said several times in public that Nelson Mandela would be let out of prison as long as Mandela renounced violence. Nelson Mandela *NEVER* did that. The crimes committed by the ANC in the name of liberation are numerous and horrible. First, there was the practice of "necklacing," in which a petrol-filled tyre is placed around the neck of a victim and set ablaze - an action carried out by Winnie Mandela and her minions. The 'Mandela-media-love-fest' turns my stomach. And whilst the principle of the end to apartheid is admirable my relatives in Cape Town are worse off under an ANC government who squander money in an unbelievable fashion than they were under apartheid. Both my Uncle and Aunt died this year in South Africa both were relatively young. My uncle died a long painful drawn out stomach cancer. There were no funds to pay for any treatment in the South African state hospitals whilst the government can throw lavish banquets for their cronies with 100,000 Rand gifts at each place setting. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

I think possibly many of the true heroes do so quietly and without drawing attention to themselves... pe ps oid Blogs! "the art of tea" "that's an odd courgette"

"P.W. Botha said several times in public that Nelson Mandela would be let out of prison as long as Mandela renounced violence. Nelson Mandela *NEVER* did that." Well, Mr Botha hardly had the moral high ground there. I'm not an expert on the specific methods of the ANC but, in principle, I wouldn't expect a political leader to renounce violence in a situation where they didn't have the opportunity to pursue their goals through a non-violent democratic route. But, as I understand it, the current position of the British government is that they should do which effectively means that modern equivalents of Mandela are classed as criminals in the UK. That makes Mandela a slightly curious choice of hero for Gordon Brown, for example.

It often matters more what political leaders do than what they say. It's easy to offer freedom to an opponent on grounds that you know that he can't accept :-) My webpage is at: http://www.bookscape.co.uk

I don't generally advocate violence, but I would say that one needs always to bear in mind context... Rules that apply in the relatively affluent, relatively tolerant UK (for example), do not necessarily apply elsewhere... pe ps oid Blogs! "the art of tea" "that's an odd courgette"

Fighting for a cause when there is no democratic option is unavoidable and perhaps justified (although Gandhi advocated widespread civil disobedience rather than violence) but when civilians including women and children are targeted (in the Church St incident that was not collateral damage, they KNEW women and children would be caught up) - that is no 'freedom fight', that's terrorism. And the vast majority of black and cape coloured (as well as white Afrikaner) South Africans are now being shat on from a great height by the ANC leaders and politicians - further evidence IMO that their motives were not as noble as the media makes out. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Well, the lack of any significant opposition to the ANC (from left, right or anywhere else) doesn't really make for a successful pluralist democracy. But I don't think the failures of the current government necessarily tells us anything either way about the leaders' original motives. Lots of leaders who started off with genuinely good intentions have ended up running much nastier governments than the current one in South Africa. Running an effective government is less dangerous than running a liberation struggle but in some ways it's more difficult.

BTW, just wanted to say that I certainly don't approve of the sort of thing Jude mentioned the ANC got up to! I just think, as a general rule, one needs to be extremely wary of applying, for example, middle-class English morality to, for example, South Africa under Apartheid rule. The flip side of this, however, is that there is a danger of falling into the trap of "anything goes in the name of fighting for 'freedom'"... pe ps oid Blogs! "the art of tea" "that's an odd courgette"

"It may be harder to be moral in difficult circs but is is possible to say otherwise denigrates anyone who is less than comfortable." Absolutely, I'm certainly not arguing that morality goes out the window when you're involved in a political struggle in a difficult situation - anymore than it does when a government is fighting in a justified war. But I think the contract between the people and the state is that the state has the monopoly on legal violence as long as all the people have something approaching an equal say in how the state is governed. If the state gives the majority of its population no say in how they're governed, it can't expect to have a monopoly on violence.