Lovers by soraia almeida

Too many words, not enough precision, declamatory tone. It includes the phrase 'oh yes', a phrase that should never feature in a poem. I'm not sure that I like poems that are directly addressed to a particular person. They're a lazy way of covering personal feelings and allow sloppy thinking, and worse, sloppy writing through. Despite appearing to be autobigraphical, the 'you' construction really allows the author to skip the far more problematic and revealing 'I'. It also lacks any concrete detail or description. It is a series of statements of varying length grouped by topic. Maybe I have a different idea of what poetry is for. I want to feel things for myself, not be told what someone else feels in such a way that I have no purchase upon it. It would be better if it made pictures or smells or sounds in my head, rather than hectoring me with a lot of bellowed statements that, as a reader, I have no great reason to be interested in. Cheers, Mark

I'm happy enough with the hectoring, if that's what the poem's supposed to be about. However, I agree with the "Oh yes" - it adds nothing.

Maybe I'm in a minority, but I don't want to read something and think 'I agree with your conclusion'. I'd rather read something and think 'that made me see something differently, or showed me something new or remade something'. I don't think trying to pass on something that the reader can feel makes something more obscure, it just makes it less didactic. Cheers, Mark

To show a (non-poetry) example, it's the difference between Hemingway's "For sale: baby shoes, never worn." and "It is so sad when a baby dies. I look at the baby shoes, tears in my eyes, knowing that they will never be worn." The first example is less didactic, or more obscure, but ultimately far more powerful and sticks in the mind far longer. Cheers, Mark

I'm guessing but... I can't be sure, Mark, that you just don't like it?! : ) That's cool, my writting is not to everyone's taste. And I'm very happy with that. Although -I love this poem. In fact I'm quite happy with it. It says all the things I wanted to say (for myself, not for whichever person decides to read it- as I write for my pleasure not for who will take pleasure from it!) and although long, its still on first draft so loads of room for improvement. I'm definitly keeping it, as is, specially the Oh yes, as it was put there on purpose its a shame people failed to see its prupose- but its staying. As for: "The first example is less didactic, or more obscure, but ultimately far more powerful and sticks in the mind far longer." This is a matter of personal taste alone, there is no rule that says that one thing has more impact than the other. Different people will take different things from writting. Too many rules just ruin creativaty. Although this has highly amused me. As a painter this all thread looks to me like a different strand of an old debate : 'But is it art?' And I, say, yes. Soraia

"This is a matter of personal taste alone, there is no rule that says that one thing has more impact than the other. Different people will take different things from writing. Too many rules just ruin creativity." Well, it's a matter of personal taste which version you like best. The different effects of the two versions aren't really a matter of personal taste. I agree with most of Mark's points in general although I think you could still make this a pretty good poem without making it too much more specific, if it was linguistically tighter. The simple explanations for what Tony muddles and lack of balance are: 1. There are several areas where the poem literally doesn't make sense, even in terms of its own internal grammar. 2. The punctuation and line breaks make the poem harder to read when their function ought to be to make it easier. I do think "Oh yes" works well, though. It means something different to me that starting the line with "We are world apart" which would be the other obvious option.

bukharin, that was an excellent example of what constructive criticism looks like: positives, negatives and suggestions. ABCtales, take notice of an editor to be. Soraia

Sorry, Soraia, I thought everything above was pretty constructive. Only trying to help and all that. Cheers.

I'm sorry Gareth, but I'm not sure what your last comment was in response too. Although, I entirely disagree with you: not all comments were constructive (and yes I have read the brand new terms and conditions, Tony). If you disagree perhaps you can point out to me how, comments such as: 'hahahahaa, go on Dave give it a whirl' are constructive to my poem or anything at all. Furthermore,so that we are all very clear, it was not me that asked for yours or anyone's help or for constructive criticism, with this poem or any other writting of mine currently showing on ABCtales - from ABCtales poets, writers or editors. This is true of now as it was before I re joined. In fact in all the years I have been writting I have asked for very little input from others in regards to my writting, Ben Ingber (Enzo) being the exception, but of such brilliant genius one can only benefit. Tony, however decided to start the topic of his own accord, which is fine, although personally I feel writers should ask for help only when they feel they need it and they should ask for it themselves. Rather than having other people asking including ABCtales management asking on their behalf. I feel another 'C E N S O R E D' coming up... Soraia

Well I wouldn't censor it, Soraia! Apologies if you don't want criticism. I'll bear it in mind. I thought everyone posting on here did so because they WANTED criticism. I know that's why I post. If I was as accomplished as I felt was possible then I wouldn't bother, I'd be off writing my Booker acceptance speech!

There are PRIZES for writing?! lmao Ewan

I think Mark's comments were a bit to acerbic to be seen as constructive, although at their core they are probably true. But if you hate a poem that much it's perhaps better to not comment. What happened 'these are people's dreams, so tread softly'?

I think it's probably unwise to post your work on a writing website if you don't want people to post comments about it. Unfortunately, under ABC's current structure there's no real way for people to indicate whether or not they want criticism other than the brazen generally American method of posting on this forum demanding attention. On other sites, their are comment boxes under stories and you can indicate if you want criticism and, in some cases, whether you want friendly encouragement or a professional level critique. I really like getting criticism because it means that someone's interested enough in my writing to have an opinion about it. That doesn't mean I necessarily take any notice of the criticism but even if you decide someone's completely misunderstood what you're trying to do, there's still things to be learnt from knowing how your writing has affected someone else.

If I didn't think that there was something there that could be made better, or if I didn't have a clear idea of what the writer of a particular piece more effective than it is, then I wouldn't say anything. There are hundreds of things that pass through ABCtales each week that I don't make any comment on. Making useful suggestions is difficult, especially when the suggestions concern a fundamental flaw in a piece of work, or when the things that are in question suggest that a different approach might be required. It's a fairly big error of thinking to confuse giving thought out, considered and potentially useful suggestions with hate. Criticism may be hard to take, but it's necessary to learn how to absorb what people suggest about your writing and make a decision, within yourself and using your own judgement, whether you feel that their view is correct, or whether you'd like to try some of the things that they suggest. The 'within yourself' part is the important bit. Someone taking the time to comment and make suggestions on any form of writing usually isn't trying to start an argument. It's a thankless task giving feedback, and the only reward is seeing people's work progress and become the best that it can be. The debate and the argument goes on within the author of the work that has received suggestions, and it's up to them to settle for themselves what they think and what should happen next, if anything. The act of charity is in the taking the time to read, not the taking the time to write. Whatever someone gets out of the act of writing, the only thing that I, as a reader, get out of it is what's there on the page. Cheers, Mark

Mark, Yes, 'hate' was too strong a word and I rescind it. Making useful suggestions *is* a difficult task, but although I am familiar with your writing style I still found the critique to be on the brutal side. Like this: "I'm not sure that I like poems that are directly addressed to a particular person. They're a lazy way of covering personal feelings and allow sloppy thinking, and worse, sloppy writing through." Lazy, sloppy thinking, sloppy writing. Ouch! Perhaps the reaction from Soraia wouldn't have been quite so rejecting if the initial criticism had been couched in slightly different terms...? We all have our personal preferences as to writing, and I think we ought to be careful to be neutral when offering criticism of someone else's preferences. Anyway, it's done, and you eds work very hard. I personally would be happy if I had *more* critique of my work, but perhaps it's just too terminally mediocre to fly above the radar. :-)Thank god it's just an occasional hobby of mine. x AG

I'm not even an editor! As I said in my initial post: "Maybe I have a different idea of what poetry is for." I think there is a very difficult challenge, both for writer and critic, in giving useful advice at the point where a writer has a preference for the way their work is because they are unaware of how they might go about changing it, or that it is indeed possible to find other ways of approaching what they're trying to achieve. It's probably the most scary precipice that a person faces when developing their writing: The dawning realisation that the way that you write isn't because you chose to write that way, it's because that's the only way you know how to write. Once you find, or discover or are shown, that there is a multitude of different ways of approaching what you intend to write, it's like the bit in the Wizard of Oz when Dorothy first opens the monochrome cabin door and sees, rather than black and white, the glorious technicolour world of Oz. Rather than being an oppression, awareness of technique is a liberation. It is, however, terrifying to move to that stage, because it's like getting to the top of the hill and finding that it was only a ridge and all around you huge mountains taper off into the clouds, still to be climbed. I don't think it's possible to be neutral about the technique and practice of writing. It isn't a preference to point out that learning more about, and applying, different techniques in your practice of writing will leads to more effective, more diverse and more purposeful writing. Cheers, Mark

"I'm not even an editor!" Heh, well, yes, I'd forgotten you'd retired. Once an ed, always an ed. :-) "The dawning realisation that the way that you write isn't because you chose to write that way, it's because that's the only way you know how to write." I am not in any disagreement with you about this, but nonetheless people have their preferred styles, some of which you will also like, some of which you won't, adn it's really their remit to continue writing like that, whether you agree or not! I was just suggesting some gentleness; tough love is a good thing, but some are more able to hack it than others. Their problem, not yours, I know.

'and', I meant.

Mark acerbic? Crikey you'll be telling me that bears shit in the woods next.

"I am not in any disagreement with you about this, but nonetheless people have their preferred styles, some of which you will also like, some of which you won't" While I agree that in this case Mark, myself and others have commented on both style and technique, they aren't the same thing. You can like what someone's trying to do with a piece of writing, while still thinking they're not succeeding in doing it. It's always difficult picking which words to use in criticism. Less harsh sounding words are often less precise. Words like 'lazy' and 'sloppy' seem very harsh if you regard your writing a direct extension of yourself. If writing's going to become a big thing for you, though, you need to stop doing that.

I find it slightly amusing that the critics of a particular style of writing do not like accepting criticism of their particular style of writing. An 'ironic moment', I think I'd call it. Physicians, heal thyselves! Styx, last time I watched National Geographic, bears *did* shit in the woods. Apparently it smells, too.

Bukhrin, "Words like 'lazy' and 'sloppy' seem very harsh if you regard your writing a direct extension of yourself. If writing's going to become a big thing for you, though, you need to stop doing that" My work is autobiographical,it is obviously an extension of myself it could not be anything else but that. I don't think one needs to distance one self from their writting in order to be better writers or even to be able to take criticism. If you read all of the above you would have seen that I actually liked your critique it was constructive and clear. Which I'm willing to take, except little rants by Mark Brown masquareding as constructive criticism. There is a time and a place to let it all out when one's life is shit and you have nothing better to do- a critique on one of my poems is not the right place to do it in. Mark, in regards to your 'charity' for reading (comment above)- that is possibly the most stupid and arrogant thing I have read in the whole of my life- plese remind me again how many publishing deals have you got and how many thousands of books have you sold- because at this point I'm thinking those can only be the words from a booker prize winning author. Because only then can you possibly write something like that without be wanting to laugh my head off. Read this: STICK YOUR CHARITY MR BROWN. Hopefully, where the sun does not shine. ABCtalers,please revolt against comments such as this:"The act of charity is in the taking the time to read, not the taking the time to write." Regardless,if it is a free service or not, should you ever,and I mean ever consider somebody reading your work as an act of charity, from other ABCtalers, readers or writers it is simply unaceptable. Mr Majesty Brown as absolutly no right to those words. Or anyone else for that matter. Please note the definition of charity: char·i·ty 1. generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless: to devote one's life to charity. 2. something given to a person or persons in need; alms: She asked for work, not charity. 3. a charitable act or work. 4. a charitable fund, foundation, or institution: He left his estate to a charity. 5. benevolent feeling, esp. toward those in need or in disfavor: She looked so poor that we fed her out of charity. 6. leniency in judging others; forbearance: She was inclined to view our selfish behavior with charity. 7. Christian love; agape. Tony,in regards to flagging my work. To be completly honest with you this is all a bit hilarious actually. My microsoft word has sort of had a fit, and I can't use notepad- I hate it- and unfortunatly cannot read my own handwritting. So I had an idea for a poem and wrote it down here- I was absolutly dismayed that you decided to highlight it! It wasn't finished it had no structure and its a bloody draft!It is just unfortunate that there is nothing on the site to say that! A 'no I don't want feedback on this one' would be greatly apreciated at least until I get a new microsoft package thing working again! Soraia

Yes, you liked my criticism. I really like a lot of your poetry and I didn't dislike the piece that started this discussion. We don't agree about this, though: "My work is autobiographical,it is obviously an extension of myself it could not be anything else but that. I don't think one needs to distance one self from their writting in order to be better writers or even to be able to take criticism." The fact that your work is autobiographical is all the more reason not to treat it as an extension of yourself. I've written an autobiographical poem about recalling a childhood's worth of bullying and mockery while visiting a friend in a psychiatric hospital. There probably isn't really anything important about who I am that isn't in that poem. But once I'd waived that poem off into the world, I had to accept that some people wouldn't like it, some people wouldn't understand it at all, lots of people would think it meant different things to what I meant it to mean and most people wouldn't be remotely interested in it. Critiques aside, it's important to distinguish between yourself and your writing because people who are personally important to you might like you and not like your writing, and hopefully eventually loads and loads of people who are personally indifferent to you will want to read your writing. "Mark, in regards to your 'charity' for reading (comment above)- that is possibly the most stupid and arrogant thing I have read in the whole of my life-" Mark wasn't saying that him reading someone's work is any more of an charity than you or me or anyone else reading someone's work. He's was making a general point that there are far more writers whose work doesn't get read and commented on by anyone, than there are readers sitting around waiting for some writers to write more stuff so they can read it. Most writers want attention, giving it to them, particularly if you're not being paid to do so, is a charitable act.

Bukhrin, "Most writers want attention, giving it to them, particularly if you're not being paid to do so, is a charitable act." I'm sorry but you have completly missed the definition of charity above. I completly and totally disagree with this notion of charity, if this is the case then I think far too much charity is being given to J.K.Rowling... This site is not based upon the notion of charity 'we are reading your work, hence take any criticism, constructive or not and be happy because hey at least we're reading it'! That is insane. As I mention above just because something is free, it does not entitle someone to say whatever they please. In fact if I get this correctly I have a clear impression that when I joined ages ago this was about, readers and writers alike, giving and sharing respectively, there was no notion of readers giving charity to writers by reading their work. It was based on a give and take relationship between both groups. e.g. don't just write,also read others people's work, and don't just read, share with us your stories also! In other words, it was amicable, well, sort of. Actually no, it was not amicable at all, people were running riot,throwing abuse right left and center...maybe that rosy picture of friendliness was just in by head. But still when did charity become the currency for this site? My notion of ABCtales is this: my poetry is here you want to read you do, you don't: don't. That's it,there is simply nothing else. I didn't come here asking for criticism,or support, or for people to read my work, or to publish it ,or praise it. I came here to make my poetry accessible to those who WANT to read it, outside and inside of ABCtales. Thats it. Soraia

Soraia, I didn't finish your list, I'm not feeling charitable today. Perhaps we can introduce a button on each page of ABC, indicating which pieces of writing I have NOT read today? May I enquire exactly why you post writing on here if you don't want anyone to read it? Or if they do read it, why you would prefer them not to be affected by it in any way? I return to my previous point - surely it's worthwhile knowing what other people feel when they read your work? Even if you disagree with what they say, it's impossible to know exactly how all readers read your work. Your words can have completely unforeseen results, and it can only help to hear what people think. Simply refuting other's comments just because they have read your work in a way you didn't intend is just being precious.

so...when exactly are we gonna get back to reading something other than this poem? especially when the writer doesn't even want feedback on it. I mean you can flag something else, why does this single work get 28 replies when really great works (sorry soraia but like you said the poem is a draft) like Punch get 1, and other cherry picked works get ignored? And ya'll have the nerve to rag on us americans for being misguided.

Gareth,perhaps you should have read it all: "May I enquire exactly why you post writing on here if you don't want anyone to read it?" Answer above: "My notion of ABCtales is this: my poetry is here you want to read you do, you don't: don't. That's it,there is simply nothing else. I didn't come here asking for criticism,or support, or for people to read my work, or to publish it ,or praise it. I came here to make my poetry accessible to those who WANT to read it, outside and inside of ABCtales. Thats it." Mike, this gets 28 replies because everybody wants to have an opinion and everyones wants to be right. The poem isn't even there, so I'm not even sure how many people that actually posted on this have actually read it. Ironic huh? I wouldn't worry though, when me the same writer, got Poem of week, none of the people above including Mark Brown, chose to post or comment anything on it. Which didn't bother me at all, either way, is just funny that something bad said about Soraia Almeida brings a whole of people out, something good however gets no replies-says a lot about my relationship with this site. I guess its the bad news that really brings out the best in people. I agree with you though- 'Lovers' should really be put to bed now. Soraia

Sic 'em Soraia!

'I wouldn't worry though, when me the same writer, got Poem of week, none of the people above including Mark Brown, chose to post or comment anything on it. Which didn't bother me at all...' The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

There are 28 or 29 or however many replies on this thread not because everyone wants to be right but because there are several issues explored in this thread which are reoccurring bug bears. It is not a personal attack against you. Not that it matters what I think (seeing as arrogance seems to be an issue for mud slinging on this thread) but the thread is here, it sort of pisses me off so I am going to have a lovely chat. Soraia, I am sorry, but I cannot believe that you are complaining about someone discussing your work. All feedback is good feedback. And yes you should be pleased that someone has taken the time to discuss it. If you did not want anyone to read it or discuss it you should not have put it on the site. End of story. It is unfair that Tony now feels that he 'has earned a lesson' after taking the time to discuss your poem. That aside, I really don’t think that Mark Brown's comments are that harsh. Perhaps some of the choice of words is unwise, but then again isn’t everyone sick to death of the tip toeing that goes on this site. I don’t even bother to comment anymore, cos all anyone says is that they like stuff. How does that make anyone better. Apart from the obvious thing of building confidence. Surely if someone has taken the time and built up the confidence to join the site they want to be good. To get good is why you are here. It is why we are all here. I know people will try to argue that in fact its all about creativity and self expression and stuff, but if we are honest we want to be thought of as good writers. By saying this, I am by no means saying that you are not good. I am however saying get some balls, yup it sucks getting back feedback, but listen take it on board, play about with it and if it still works better your way then keep it your way. I wish the forums where always controversial, at least it’s interesting. I would love to have the guts to go on a thread and go, I don’t like it and here is why and for someone to fling out an 'it’s an extension of myself' defense net, or to get prissy. I am sorry you feel got at Soraia. That sucks, but as said before, be flattered. However, maybe worry when a poem is poem of the week and no one wants to comment on it. I know I do and hopefully it means I will get better. Just tough it out. Span

Ha, ha! Here on the vaunted ABCTales Span gets right to the core: Mark was off the mark (in words if not content) and left Soraia sore. Hoo hoo hoo! Sorry, not very helpful. Or rhymeful. Oh, precious people.

Don't worry, I'm not going to waste any more time on that dreadful poem; I simply want to challenge something that Buks said early on, about requests for feedback being a "brazen American" thing: I don't think that's strictly fair, as everyone is in agreement (apart from Soraia) that we're here for comments and feedback. And precious few people get flagged on the forum. It might be good if some sort of guaranteed feedback was received, so everyone thought their time wasn't wasted (unless - of course - they choose to opt out of the feedback).

The 'brazen American' comment wasn't related to whether or not people want feedback, the point was that currently, unless people come out and demand feedback on here - which is much frowned upon - there is no way to indicate that you would like feedback. I'm personally not offended by people requesting feedback on this forum, as long as it's one polite message and isn't followed up with a rude one if no one responds within a few hours. Guaranteed feedback would be very difficult - who is going to guarantee it? Would Tony be expected to read and comment on everything? Feedback boxes underneath stories - which people should obviously be able to opt not to have - are a good idea, though.

There are Comment Boxes if you click on the titles of the writer's collections. Not sure quite what happens if you don't have a collection... I have left comments in these boxes, but I'm not sure anyone reads them. Sometimes I would like to give a detailed crit of something without actually flagging it on a public forum, but that does seem to be the system here. I suppose it does make the forums more lively, but sometimes it is harder to take negative feedback in a public place. Having a thick skin goes with the writing territory, though, and the feedback on here is nothing like the ripping apart I've had at Writers Groups.

I don't get it. If a user does not want feedback are we then not allowed to discuss their work, if we like it are we not allowed to flag it and recommend it to others, or, if we think it was crap, are we not allowed to say so underneath the recommendation. Ultimately, once something is in the public domain the author does not get to control what people say about it (the Anne Rice vs Amazon Reviewers spat comes to mind). If people think something is interesting enough to talk about, they will talk about it, on abctales, or if that is banned then maybe elsewhere. I can see the point of an 'I want feedback' flag - if only to stop people spamming the forum with requests (as sometimes happens). But that can be achieved just as well with a little note at the top of the story or poem (and some people do this). I can't see the point in an 'I don't want feedback' flag at all.

Can't authors just not read threads on their work if they don't want feedback? I don't see how you can stop other people having opinions on work and sharing those opinions. As Maddan says, once it's in the public domain, it's fair game. All you have to do is not read the Discuss Writing forum and presto - you'll never receive constructive suggestions on how to improve your work. It's funny how the people who claim they don't want feedback only pipe up when the feedback isn't one hundred percent positive, and yet are only to quick to gratefully acknowledge unqualified praise. Like Span says, suck it up, babies.