Failings

I don't really have too much problem with dialogue either, although my tutor told me that it was one of the most difficult things to write flowingly and convincingly. Description (he said) is best conveyed through gestures, apparal and mannerisms, rather than the somewhat trite (and boring) 'she-had-black-hair-blue-eyes-and-big-knockers' style. Since this guy, bless him, had been ed, for 20 years, of a national newspaper which, though thoroughly respectable, shall remain nameless, I chose to believe him utterly, with some small measure of success...

Some interesting points here. I think I am rather the reverse of Roy - my mental image of the story shows me what's going to happen and what people say and what they're like, but isn't visual at all. My characters and settings seem to float, rather than be fixed into one particular thing. Particularly my locations. I do try to convey character by actions, rather than saying 'he was a tempestuous man', but I'm not sure how that works in practice. It's more, he was the sort of guy who sets his shoes next to each other, heels touching rather than kicking them across the room. Good example of what I'd like to do is - if you watch the Simpsons, Homer has two work colleagues, Lenny and Karl. Both are very separate, but if you asked me to say what the essential aspects with each were, I couldn't tell you. They are just Lenny and Karl, not 'an angry guy' or a 'sulky lazy guy'.

I think writing dialogue is a great skill, a skill I wish I could master myself. Irvine Walsh can write books that seem to be about 90% dialogue. Very talented. My weakness is in imagination - a bit of a drawback if you're a writer. I can only write about what I know or experiences I've lived through. My mind is always working overtime, though, so this helps to compensate and perhaps make some of my stuff more palatible. But I do wish I could make up things.

I don't think I have a problem with my imagination. What I lack is the ability to capture somebody elses... isn't that the goal?

I kind of agree Fecky. I know I struggle when it comes to writing convincing characters who don't have something in common with me (or at least people I've known well.) I found I couldn't write convincing dialogue when I was shy, introverted and spent most of my time in my room. When I was forced into meeting a wide variety of people by work it suddenly became a lot easier. Writing sad stuff without it being angsty is hard (also on another thread) And I find it *really* hard to write serious poetry because I think it will sound worthy (not dissing anyone who does write serious poetry - I just wish I could!). My imagination, if anything, is just too vivid (I still see monsters in dark shadows at night, even though I'm 27 years old!)

hmmm .. interesting ... like roy i "see" everything ... my characters arrive whole and speaking for themselves (and i am startled by the thought that andrew doesn't "see" in this same way)... but i think roy's point about just because you can see it all for yourself doesn't mean your reader can ... is a good one ... it's tricky because we can never read our work (yikes am i speaking for us all ... oh dear ... will have a stern word with myself ...) ... as others read it ... we will always be informed by the rest of it that sits in our heads ... so how can we really tell? this is where feedback from others ... readers ... tutors ... editors ... other writers in groups or on here ... is invaluable ... i am interested by what andrea says too ... it is going back to the point of "show not tell" ... in life the truths we pick up about each other we get from looking at people ... from their gestures and facial expressions, from their clothes and from their actions ... as well as from what we hear them say ... and back to andrew'a original question ... i hear again the quote about "one true thing" ... the truth of our experience is indispensable ... clear observation (internal and external) and fresh honest expression ... allows the writer to surprise the reader and the reader to say "yes, that IS how it is ..."

The truth is to be found, I think, more often in the 'showing' than the 'telling'. I've lost count of the times (now, happily, in the dim and distant past) when I've ignored my gut feeling/basic instict/intuition/whatever you want to call it and believed what I was told (often with disastrous consequences), whilst facial expressions, gestures etc, contradicted and belied the workings of the mouth. An older, wiser and (sometimes, but not often) repentant Andrea now watches closely, observes, takes note and listens to the heart... Have I gone off on a terrible tangent, here? Oh, well. Sod it.

I wrote something really good once...but forget where I put it. Often I try to recreate the mood I was in that caused me to write such a masterpiece but I can never quite get there. Oh well, thank God there is Coffee and ABCtales to keep me amused. Until I find my masterpiece you guys just keep thinking your good, K? Sir Folgers

I think my imagination works more like a radio. It is more hearing the rhythm of words and dialogue than seeing people. As far as physical appearance goes, I couldn't pick most of my characters out of a line-up.

This is an interesting thread because everyone's correct. Andrew's obviously a very auditory person - he needs to HEAR what we are all SAYING. Whereas Andrea and iFB are very visual - they both need to SEE what we're saying to be able to process it. To connect with Andrea and iFB we need to use phrases like, "Do you SEE what I'm saying?" and "LOOK at this way." To get Andrew's attention we would say, "LISTEN to me a minute," or even, "Come over HEAR, please" (phonetic). Other people may process their inner world kinesthetically, or through feelings, as in "I feel happy" or "This chair feels soft." I'm basically a visual thinker, so I guess most of my writing is of a visual nature, which is maybe why I find dialogue hard. I've never thought about it (or LOOKED at it that way) before, but perhaps I've learned an awful lot about my own writing style in the last few moments. I probably need to use more auditory and kinesthetic phrases, otherwise I run the danger of isolating two thirds of my readership. Something to think about.

Strange.. When I started writing, I found that the whole story simply spilled out. I, too, have always enjoyed writing dialogue - it comes naturally to me, as it seems to with Andrew. My first rejection by an agent was quite complimentary, but made the point that I failed to describe characters fully. Maybe it's the same thing, but when I thought about it I realised that possibly he was right: when I write, the whole story plays itself out in glowing colour - but only in my head. The reader can't see what I see, and so I'm not communicating properly if I don't describe the scene. Since taking that on board, I've made a conscious effort to describe people and places as I "see" them. It's just an adjustment of style, really, though it always lengthens the plot. So, what needs fixing? I always leave stories to one side nowadays, and go on to something completely different. When I revisit them, I virtually always find that some aspect - maybe looks, maybe motivation - needs amplifying. (Oh, just for a laugh - my latest rejection castigated me roundly for too MUCH character and background description. How can you win?) Having said that, lack of clarity is something that I've never noticed in Andrew's work.

I must admit that I do not see myself as a writer. I write but that doesn't make me a writer. There was a thread about this before. Anyhoo, for me I struggle with dialogue more than anything else really. I love to describe and set scenes and set up the way a character is feeloing or thinking rather than right out some crap dialogue. So I am different. Besides, Andrew I always think you describe scenes and feelings well in your work. Roy, the same goes for you.

While I do not consider myself a writer, I have several stories some colder than others to tell. Now telling is easy. It is showing that is hard. How much do I see. How little to I hear. When should I start smelling the earth covered in dew. Why do I digest some conversations and not others? The trick of telling my story through my survivor's eyes instead of my words. If you can see it in your mind, it is yours forever. But How do you penetrate the wall of your mind? I am good with questions. I never seem to have any answers. The only thing I am sure of is the starting sentence to many things in life 'I Do not know anything anymore ...' :-) Jozef