Speak The Truth And Be The Devil?

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Fri, 2010-12-10 07:56
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Mangone
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Speak The Truth And Be The Devil?

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire.

It seems somewhat ironic that the leaders of many of the countries which are seen as the ‘leaders of the free world’ are screaming for the head of Julian Assange for exercising his right to ‘free speech’

Really it is simply just another demonstration of the double standards that governments display when their cosy façade of inalienable human rights becomes transparent for a moment and display yet another glimpse of the truth - if human rights are inconvenient then simply brand your opponent as a ‘terrorist’ since it has already been established by the US that ‘terrorists’ are not human and therefore can be treated as if they have no rights!

So should Free Speech be the right to say whatever you like?
I would argue that it should, at least, be the right to say, either by speech or print, something that is true so far as you know… but what is truth?

Do you watch or listen to the news on TV or radio or skim through the various internet ‘news’ sites which offer ‘analysis’ of what is happening in the world and wonder why it all seems to be essentially the same one sided opinions masquerading as facts? Where is the truth?

Look again and notice that with most ‘news’ there is no longer any concept of what truth is but just a biased debate between two or more sides as to who has the most persuasive argument!

The worst aspect of this is that the arguments need not be based in fact but are often simply speculations or rumours that has been given the label of truth by manipulative media outlets which care nothing for truth only for results that favour their agendas.

It seems to me to be ludicrous that, say, Fox ‘News’ can spew forth its deceptions and misleading propaganda with the obvious support of some of the world’s most powerful politicians and yet Wikileaks can be harassed and threatened by much the same people for printing the truth!

Has truth become a casualty of convenience or has it always been a matter of opinion?

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Mangone
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Hiya Sunday. Really nice to hear from you and thanks for the great link! Be well and be lucky xxx.
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WillSimpson
WillSimpson's picture
well my friend, the wind is blowing strong and the ship is heading off course into re\/olution island, the war against the machine! hahaha yep, I'll be dead before that like. I actually think Jon Snow is a pretty straight up guy.

Until we feel our thoughts our thinking remains unfelt

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peacedance
peacedance's picture
The truth will set you free. The only reason they're silencing him is so they can control information. Sad...
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
It might be entertaining for interested ABCer to speculate on what they think might be encrypted on the Wikileaks servers to be revealed should dire need dictate. It must be suspected that Wiki has something very explosive to strike such fear into the powers that be and my guess is that it might be something along the lines of this article which I came across while perusing the Global Research site. I hope they don’t mind me posting it on ABC… but it does say spread the word :O) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pentagon Papers Whistleblowers Call for a New 9/11 Investigation http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22360 “The main players in releasing the Pentagon Papers were Daniel Ellsberg and Senator Mike Gravel. Ellsberg is, of course, the former military analyst and famed whistleblower who smuggled the Pentagon Papers out of the Rand Corporation. Senator Gravel is the person who read the Pentagon Papers into the Congressional Record. This act made the papers public record, so that they could not be censored by the government. Ellsberg and Gravel are receiving a lot of media attention right now for their support of Wikileaks. Yet little attention has been paid to Ellsberg and Gravel's support for a new 9/11 investigation. Ellsberg says that the case of a certain 9/11 whistleblower is "far more explosive than the Pentagon Papers". He also said that the government is ordering the media to cover up her allegations about 9/11. Ellsberg also says that some of the claims concerning government involvement in 9/11 are credible, that "very serious questions have been raised about what they [U.S. government officials] knew beforehand and how much involvement there might have been", that engineering 9/11 would not be humanly or psychologically beyond the scope of those in office, and that there's enough evidence to justify a new, "hard-hitting" investigation into 9/11 with subpoenas and testimony taken under oath. Senator Gravel has long supported a new 9/11 investigation. Gravel told the Daily Caller this week: Individuals in and out of government may certainly have participated with the obviously known perpetrators of this dastardly act. Suspicions abound over the analysis presented by government. Obviously an act that has triggered three wars, Afghan, Iraqi and the continuing War on Terror, should be extensively investigated which was not done and which the government avoids addressing. Other high-level whistleblowers have alleged a cover-up as well. For example, Air Force Colonel and key Pentagon official Karen Kwiatkowski - who blew the whistle on the Bush administration's efforts to concoct false intelligence about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction - wrote (page 26): 'I have been told by reporters that they will not report their own insights or contrary evaluations of the official 9/11 story, because to question the government story about 9/11 is to question the very foundations of our entire modern belief system regarding our government, our country, and our way of life. To be charged with questioning these foundations is far more serious than being labelled a disgruntled conspiracy nut or anti-government traitor, or even being sidelined or marginalized within an academic, government service, or literary career. To question the official 9/11 story is simply and fundamentally revolutionary. In this way, of course, questioning the official story is also simply and fundamentally American.' Indeed, Ellsberg and Gravel join a long list of high-level former officials in the government and intelligence services - including many well-known whistleblowers - who have publicly demanded a new investigation.” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Highhat
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Poor Assange being a scapegoat.
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chuck
chuck's picture
The Wikileaks thing will pass I think and be another blip on the graph of history. Sure some people are angry about government hypocrisy but not enough to do much about it. Fear rules. Kinda like CCTV. It comes back to the old mantra...if you aren't doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about. That said I am very curious to see if Assange gets extradited. The Americans have the handcuffs ready. It's a political decision. Over to you Mr. Cameron.
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
“…if you aren't doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about.” It may be true Chuck - but a lot depends on how you define ‘wrong’... To some people Assange is a ‘freedom fighter’ and to others he is a ‘terrorist'. Usually ‘wrong’ is taken to mean against the law but as, sadly, seems to be being demonstrated all around the world ‘laws’ are just as open to ‘convenient’ interpretations as any other form of spiritual or moral guidance. I read today that one of the two women who has accused Assange threw a party for him the week after the ‘incident’ and says she decided to press charges because of her fear that she might have contracted an STD because it was unprotected sex - it seems she might have been asleep at the time! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Update. The BBC News is fairly informative about the charges against Assange. “Sweden has one of the toughest laws on sexual crime in the world - lawyers sometimes joke that men need written permission first.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652 The women’s attorney Claes Borgstrom seems to love the lime-light and has "often attracted attention with a series of controversial proposals and moves.” “He claims that all men carry a collective guilt for violence against women.” “He also attracted attention in march 2006 when he demanded that Sweden boycott the 2006 World Cup in Germany 'in protest against the increase in the trafficking in women that the event is expected to result in'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claes_Borgstr%C3%B6m There may be a conspiracy but it might be a Swedish Social Democratic politician that’s behind it rather than the CIA! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Certainly there will be international outrage if Assange is extradited to America and the US would end up in peril of reversing all the fence mending that seems to have been one of the few achievements that President Obama has managed to actually deliver without much obvious opposition. I doubt that Wikileaks will “be another blip on the graph of history” in fact I think it will probably be the start of a new kind of global ‘Whistle Blowing’ style of journalism where ’secret’ information will be obtained by hackers and woven into news stories by professional journalist that can take the leaked information and weave collections of isolated items into a series of connected themes. In my opinion it will be the basis of a new future for investigative reporting and will quickly replace the tired, often boot-licking, current style of journalism that is so often terrified of alienating its advertisers or its audience or its government… Perhaps it will develop into something which has the facilities of say YouTube or Facebook where almost anyone could anonymously download pictures, audio recordings or videos, with suitable annotations, to be considered as ‘relevant evidence’ toward a range of classified stories. Since it would be International it would be much better fitted to deal with global corruption issues. A TruthTube?
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chuck
chuck's picture
“…if you aren't doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about.” It may be true Chuck - but a lot depends on how you define ‘wrong’... It also depends on who is applying the law. I used CCTV as an example of the way society allows itself to be manipulated. I regard CCTV as intimidation but obviously it makes some people feel secure. Those people are being told Wikileaks is a threat. Assange was denied bail in the UK. Where's the outrage? The mainstream media has its own agenda. They fear Wikileaks because it shows them up as puppets. Constant repetition has made Assange synonymous with rape. Now it's to the point where I've heard people ask 'how can you defend a rapist?' I'd like to think Wikileaks is more than 'another blip'. It certainly has stirred things up and exposed a lot of doubletalk but my fear is that it will only have a temporary effect. Meanwhile I'm enjoying watching the powerful trying to plug the leaks.
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Radio Denver
Radio Denver's picture
The truth is what you want to believe. Truth and reality seldom occur in the same space. The reality is that WikiLeaks and Mr. A wants to play a game he can't win. He is a tadpole is a sea of sharks. Would you think it right to steal your little sisters private diary and post it on the internet? Would you think it right if somebody absconded with your private medical records and placed them on the internet? Would it be acceptable to hide a microphone in your neighbors bedroom and then post the recording on the internet? Everyone has a right to privacy. Even the neighbor you hate. Stealing private records and using them to seek publicity under the pretense of being noble isn't being noble. Hiding behind a cloak of "journalism" is pathetic. I've been in journalism for 30 years. This doesn't come close. He'll get what he deserves, one way or another. Visit me http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/

Share your state secrets at...
http://www.amerileaks.org

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Mangone
Mangone's picture
Radio Denver : We both know that you are simply repeating the same tired arguments that Fox and friends have been using for the past few days. Isn’t the whole point that governments are secretly doing exactly these things that you say are not right and then screaming blue murder when Wikileaks gets hold of some of the results and publishes them? It seems to me that you are inadvertently arguing that it is not wrong to do these things only that you think it is wrong for Wikileaks to do it. Since you say you have been involved in journalism for 30 years I suspect that it is people like you who have towed the line reinforcing government propaganda regarding issues like the Iraq War that has actually created the need for Wikileaks in the first place. Surely the point of freedom of speech is that it is FREEDOM to speak the truth without penalty… Isn’t it the height of hypocrisy to condemn Wilileaks for exercising their right to speak the truth while at the same time condemning China for jailing Liu Xaibo for doing the same thing? The Iraq War was based on misinformation. Perhaps a million people died, several million were displaced and in most people’s estimation the Iraqis are far worse off now than they were before the West interfered. Many people believe that if something like Wikileaks had been available at the time then the Iraq War might well not have happened, America might not have ended up in such dire financial straits and the world economy might be a great deal healthier. So before you so blindly follow the same tired “trust us, everything we do we do it for you” rhetoric from the ‘powers that be’ wonder to yourself how much less you’ll get on retirement thanks to ‘secret intelligence’.
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(Reply to #11)
Radio Denver
Radio Denver's picture
Mangone, you are mistaken. I don't watch Fox news, nor much of any other television news. As a matter of fact, I retired from Journalism because I did not want to work for Rupert Murdoch. The fact that I can come to a conclusion based on my own observations and that those observations concur with someone elses observations is what you would call corroborating viewpoints. If my viewpoint differs from yours, so be it. I'm not here to make you feel all warm and fuzzy. If you want to idolize somebody, go for it. I don't jump on bandwagons just because they seem to be singing a song I want to hear. Freedom to speak the truth without penalty has never existed. It won't come into existence because you want it to. I believe that there needs to be more openness in all government dealings (US, European, Asian, etc...) Assange isn't the guy to do it, he doesn't have the credentials and he doesn't have the moral authority. Nobody has elected him to an office and he's never been a public servant. His methods are not sound and the people he is using to promote his own agenda (which I do not believe to be all that noble) are the ones who will suffer the consequences. Do to these and his own defective personality traits, he'll ultimately fail. That's my opinion. I'm looking for another horse to bet on. Visit me http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/

Share your state secrets at...
http://www.amerileaks.org

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Mangone
Mangone's picture
Regarding the "Trust us, everything we do we do it for you" in my last post. Consider this : I would argue that saving the planet should be the world's highest priority and yet what happened in Cancun demonstrates that most govenments really care far more about business as usual than the planet. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It’s easy to see just how seriously many of the world’s politicians take the dangers of Global Warming and Climate Change. Searching the Internet I found an article in the news that maintained that bonus payouts of over $90 billion are planned by just five ‘too big to fail’ companies… which is almost the same amount that is being pledged in the latest Climate Change deal in Mexico to ‘save the world’ with an annual “Green Fund” to be set up by 2020. Wouldn’t it make more sense to use the bonus payments to save the planet now and pay the Christmas bonuses in 2020 :O) “Last Sunday, the television programme 60 Minutes sat down with Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, they asked him about the bonuses. The Fed head had nothing to say about that. He just wanted to praise his own efforts to save the financial system.” http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2010/12/201012973441995283.... I have to admit that I have been unable to discover who these five companies are and it appears to me that Wall Street bonuses will only amount to roughly half that figure… yet - after a ‘lacklustre‘ year and $550,000,000 fine “Goldman employees are expected to receive a collective $16,800,000,000 or nearly $500,000 per employee”! http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2010/10/12/wall-street-deja-vu-l...
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
It seems that, hopefully, a Thai-specific Wikileaks type site, Thaileaks, is being launched. Since, so far as I know Wikileaks is blocked by the Thai government I expect Thaileaks will also be blocked. Certainly Thailand needs a site that can air controversial material which would be available to the majority of those online as Facebook and YouTube are not really suitable but are used from necessity. Very recently two cases against the Democrats were dismissed by the Constitutional Court on a technicality. Below is a selection of quotes taken from an article pertaining to five videos that were downloaded to the Internet which appeared to show ‘interference’ with certain judges who were to try the case. Since the two cases were related in some ways but quite different in others it was found to be surprising that the same technicality was the basis for dismissing both cases. It makes the videos all the more contentious but, of course, as with Wikileaks, the guilty are never those in the leaks but rather those who leaked them! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ “The Crime Suppression Division police investigators are preparing a case to support an application for arrest warrants for people who were involved in the making and release of video clips involving the Constitution Court's handling of the dissolution trial of the Democrat Party for alleged misuse of a 29 million baht political party development fund in 2005, Pol Maj-Gen Panya Mamen said..." Pasit Sakdanarong, who has been sacked as secretary to Supreme Court president Chat Chonlaworn, might have violated Article 198 of the Criminal Codem, for contempt of court and obstructing court procedure. Police wanted to question Mr Pasit, who flew to Hong Kong on Oct 13. They want to know how he was involved and who else were responsible for the release of the five video clips on YouTube, which was in violation of the Computer Crimes Act. Pol Maj-Gen Panya said police would have to find out who made and released the five video clips, which were considered official and confidential. They would be charged with violating the Computer Crimes Act and the Information Act, he said. The Technology Crimes Division has been assigned to find out who forwarded the clips over the Internet. The Information and Communication Technology Ministry has asked to seek a court order banning showing of the clips.” http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/203652/warrants-soon-for-video-cli...
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chuck
chuck's picture
Actually Mangone in fairness to FOX even Glenn Beck seems confused.... http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/1209/What-Glenn-Beck-and-Wiki... Distrust of government runs deep. Another problem they have is coming up with a charge that fits the Wikileaks case. I'm still waiting to see what the UK will do with Assange.
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
Thanks for that link Chuck! I have cable TV and occasionally watch Fox just to see who or what they are pillorying at the moment. I admit I can rarely stand it for long but I did catch a bit of O’Reilly saying that Assange should be killed or put in prison for life. However, as you point out Fox seems to be taking a far more balanced stance recently and that in itself might inspire some very interesting leaks :O) Of course it might simply be that Fox has realised that there will probably be a lot of leaks that they can use against Obama...
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
Okay Radio. I must have been misled by your stance on posting leaks and your final line “He'll get what he deserves, one way or another.” You say “I believe that there needs to be more openness in all government.” but you condemn leaks and you don’t offer any hint of how else governments might be ‘persuaded’ to be more honest or forced to face up to evidence that suggests that they are not telling the truth. For me it is Wikileaks and what it stands for that is important and I support Assange because he is seen as the man behind Wikileaks and as such is therefore at the forefront of the battle between those who want to be able to do whatever they like beneath a cloak of secrecy and those who believe that we all have a right to know what is being done in our name, or at least, what is being done that is corrupt or inhumane. I’m not betting on horses, or people, I’m betting on a process. A process that I hope will help to shine light in dark places and reveals things that governments don’t want to be revealed for a variety of reasons. I’m betting that the process will eventually force those in power to be more honest because it will become too difficult to sustain their lies. I’m betting that now the people of the Internet have had a taste of what’s going on behind the scenes they will start to open their eyes and their minds to the fact that they have been deliberately misled on many issues and I’m betting that enough of them will not want to lose that window into reality to make sure that it isn’t smashed!
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Radio Denver
Radio Denver's picture
Mangone, WikiLeaks stands for many things imo. WikiLeaks is also a creep magnet if you ask me. I don't want anarchists dictating the national policy of my government or any other world government. I want honest, hard working public servants doing that work. From my view of the road, Assange and many European "liberals" have a case of the ass over anything involving the United States, and as such seem to have some blind ambition to do anything they can to discredit anything the US does, which is totally asinine if you ask me. Leaking US state department documents for the most part will be harmless, but in some instances will probably cause problems for the US and other Countries. I agree with the assessment that world governments need to be able to have private conversations between diplomats without fear of those conversations being made part of the public discussion. It is not reasonable to expect the the United States be the only government subjected to the notion that diplomatic conversations must be made public, whilst no other government's diplomatic conversations are made public. In the interest of "Journalistic" integrity, this doesn't carry the test of impartiality. If it isn't impartial, it isn't journalism, it's propaganda. I therefore conclude that the WikiLeaks posting of primarily US Government documents is a propaganda attack on the United States and as such, should be subject to any retaliation that the United States see fit in order to defend their national interests. Furthermore, the same should hold true for any other country's government. If not done in totality across the board, it reeks of political agenda and hostility. So, when you delve into hostilities, the gloves come off and "you get what you get." But, be realistic. We live in the real world, not a make believe world of internet nirvana. Honestly, I oppose the wars, I oppose all hostilities, but realistically I know they will always exist somewhere for some reason. In the real world every country has to worry about their national security because somebody somewhere will always want to pick a fight with you and when that happens I want my nation to be the baddest ass on the block when things do go down. As far as WikiLeaks getting what they get, it means simply that. They are going to piss people off, and those people aren't going to play by the made up rules that WikiLeaks wants to have in place, ie..."we want to attack your way of life but we don't want you to retaliate because we're noble." Bullshit. There's a saying that goes back to the American Revolution and that saying is... "Don't Tread On Me" What it means is mind your own business and we'll get along, however, if you stick your nose too far into my business I'll bust your nose. Do you think for a minute any world government is going to acquiesce to the agenda of WikiLeaks? Hell no they aren't. Lastly, and this is my own developed viewpoint from the past 10 years. I've seen the US support Great Britain and France and other European countries for the last 100 years, through 2 world wars and countless other civil disorders and crises. Thousands and thousands of Americans have willingly given their lives to protect British and European interests. This vilification of the US by liberal Europeans has progressed to the point that I feel as a US Citizen, I simply can't identify with the morals and mindsets of Europeans and I must now teach my children and grand children that they should not be in any hurry to risk their lives for Europeans. Why, because I see a lot of hatred in Europeans towards one another and now towards the US. Europeans have a long history of not getting along with one another and now they've turned on the US and don't want to get along with us. I'm not the only US Citizen who feels this way. There is a growing mindset in the United States that Europe is not that important in the world economy and they are too incapable of losing their old ways of doing things. I'm pretty happy here in my world and pretty safe too. I don't really need Europe or Great Britain to tell me anything about how to run my life. So, what may be true to Assange or to you, may not be true to me. If you can't respect my truth, I won't respect yours. Visit me http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/

Share your state secrets at...
http://www.amerileaks.org

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andrea
andrea's picture
Mangone, you might find this of interest, if you haven't already seen it. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27039.htm http://www.ukauthors.com http://www.ukapress.com

http://www.ukauthors.com

http://www.ukapress.com

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Mangone
Mangone's picture
Denver: I don’t really feel that you have said anything further that I want to comment on other than to say that I’m glad that you feel happy and safe in your world. Thanks again Chuck. I was amazed to find that I quite enjoyed the transcript of Glen Beck’s ‘Julian Assange in the Crosshairs’. It took me a while to get used to the style but from - ‘Beck : Hello America’ about halfway down the first page it is quite interesting and sometimes even faintly amusing. Worth a read if you want to get a very detailed account of Julian Assage’s trip to Sweden - of course I can’t vouch for its accuracy! http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/glenn-beck/transcript/julian-assange-cross... Interesting that 100 Billion comes up yet again - this time it is reckoned to be the amount that it would cost to extend unemployment benefits for another year or so. So, maybe the Christmas bonuses should be used to pay that and save poor Mr Beck from worrying too much about the system collapsing. It will anyway of course ;O) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks Andrea, I’ll watch it now!
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chuck
chuck's picture
Expect every trick in the tired old playbook Mangone. Security threat check, theft of government property check, ad hominem attacks check. About the only thing Assange hasn't been called yet is a muslim. For all his faults Beck understands that the genie is out of the bottle.
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Radio Denver
Radio Denver's picture
Mangone, So, we're cool. I think we all want the same things. Visit me http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/

Share your state secrets at...
http://www.amerileaks.org

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andrea
andrea's picture
Some more info for you Mangone and Co. Interesting vid, too http://www.democracynow.org/ http://www.ukauthors.com http://www.ukapress.com

http://www.ukauthors.com

http://www.ukapress.com

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Radio Denver
Radio Denver's picture
Andrea, I once heard some time back from somebody that may have known something about it that the voting for the UKAnthology submissions was rigged. Any truth to that rumor? Visit me http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/

Share your state secrets at...
http://www.amerileaks.org

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Mangone
Mangone's picture
Updated with futher quotes from the Columbia School of Journalism. While it is good news that Julian Assange has finally been released on bail I find the fate of Bradley Manning - the man who is alleged to have supplied some of the most important leaks to Wiki (including the clip of the helicopter shooting of 11 men including a Reuters photographer) - ‘being held in prison under Inhumane Conditions’ to be very worrying. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/16/alleged_wikileaks_whistleblower_b... Even worse, it seems that the DOJ has encouraged Federal investigators to look for evidence of collusion between Wikileaks and Bradley in the hope of charging Assange with conspiracy and perhaps ‘persuading’ Bradley to testify against him. "Federal prosecutors, seeking to build a case against the WikiLeaks leader Julian Assange for his role in a huge dissemination of classified government documents, are looking for evidence of any collusion in his early contacts with an Army intelligence analyst suspected of leaking the information." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/16wiki.html?_r=1&hp Meanwhile the Columbia School of Journalism comes out against the prosecution of Julian Assange. "Any prosecution of Wikileaks’ staff for receiving, possessing or publishing classified materials will set a dangerous precedent for reporters in any publication or medium, potentially chilling investigative journalism and other First Amendment-protected activity. As a historical matter, government overreaction to publication of leaked material in the press has always been more damaging to American democracy than the leaks themselves. The U.S. and the First Amendment continue to set a world standard for freedom of the press, encouraging journalists in many nations to take significant risks on behalf of transparency. Prosecution in the Wikileaks case would greatly damage American standing in free-press debates worldwide and would dishearten those journalists looking to this nation for inspiration." More from the School Of Journalism. (slightly edited) 'The Espionage Act in particular, which probably has not been used in a case of this type since World War II, would create a very broad standard for prosecution on publishing virtually any state secret. “WikiLeaks, approve its m.o. or not, is certainly conducting ‘journalistic activity,’ however flawed.” (Note the Bush Administration sought a conviction under the Espionage Act against two employees of AIPAC who disseminated classified information. It was thought at the time that this was a step toward criminalizing journalistic activity.) Prosecuting Wikileaks for engaging in the same activity as their traditional journalism partners would significantly damage freedom of the press. Put simply, there is no intellectually coherent way to distinguish what WikiLeaks has done with these diplomatic cables with what newspapers around the world did in this case and what they do constantly: namely, receive and then publish classified information without authorization. As much justifiable outrage as the Bush DOJ’s prosecution of the AIPAC officials provoked, at least the actions there resembled “espionage” far more than anything Assange has done, as those AIPAC officials actually passed U.S. secrets to a foreign government, not published them as WikiLeaks has done. To criminalize what WikiLeaks is doing is, by definition, to criminalize the defining attribute of investigative journalism. There’s very little, if any, difference between the stories written on Wikileaks, and, say, James Risen’s story from earlier this week about drug lords in Afghanistan. Both relied on classified information. Both printed the stories based on the public right to know. Both are protected under the First Amendment freedoms of the press... At least they used to be.' Todd Gitlin, Professor; Chair, PhD Program.
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
Whatever your views on Wikileaks do you think it set a dangerous precedent that banks can decide, without explanation, but probably due to high level pressure, that they will ’blacklist’ certain people or organisations? Isn’t it bad enough that in some countries organisations that oppose the government are branded as ‘terrorists’ and have not only all their bank accounts frozen but also the bank accounts of anyone who used that country's banks to send them sizable donations. Now it seems that there is no longer a need to brand organisations as ‘terrorists’ to get bankers to cooperate with the ‘powers that be’ and it makes you wonder if a future Wikileak will be a list of banks that have sent details, to various government agencies, of all those who donated to Wikileaks and how much they donated!
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andrea
andrea's picture
'...it makes you wonder if a future Wikileak will be a list of banks that have sent details, to various government agencies, of all those who donated to Wikileaks and how much they donated!...' Oh, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if that hadn't already been done. http://www.ukauthors.com http://www.ukapress.com

http://www.ukauthors.com

http://www.ukapress.com

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Highhat
Highhat's picture
Assange is neither British nor European. He is an Australian citizen.
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andrea
andrea's picture
Er...yes, we know that, Highhat. Well, at least *I* do, and I imagine Mangone does, as well. http://www.ukauthors.com http://www.ukapress.com

http://www.ukauthors.com

http://www.ukapress.com

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Radio Denver
Radio Denver's picture
You're kidding! Right. Assange is Australian? And all this time I thought he was Canadian. Share your state secrets at... http://www.amerileaks.org

Share your state secrets at...
http://www.amerileaks.org

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Mangone
Mangone's picture
The United States military has denied mistreating Bradley Manning, an army private suspected of passing hundreds of thousands of classified US documents to the whistleblowing website WikiLeaks, saying that Manning has the same privileges as all other prisoners held in "maximum custody". However the California-based Courage to Resist project has described the conditions in which Manning is being held as "a form of punishment prior to conviction" and the Guardian reveals that David House who visits Manning twice a month says he is starting to deteriorate. "Over the last few weeks I have noticed a steady decline in his mental and physical wellbeing," he said. "I initially believed that his time in solitary confinement was a decision made in the interests of his safety," he said. "As time passed and his suicide watch was lifted, to no effect, it became clear that his time in solitary – and his lack of a pillow, sheets, the freedom to exercise, or the ability to view televised current events – were enacted as a means of punishment rather than a means of safety." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/16/bradley-manning-health-deter...
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
So now they search to find a way To put poor Julian Assange away A way to make the upstart pay For the indignities of yesterday The ‘state’ must always win the day Must always have the final say Must demonstrate to one and all Those who oppose will always fall Yet who really loses when bullies win If telling the truth is their victim's sin? Who do these powers truly represent Majorities in senate or parliament? Public servants serving who Are they serving me and you? Don't they always act the same Finding others to take the blame Do they serve some greater good That excuses all the lies and blood? Or does each one truly serve themself By serving those with power and wealth?
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chuck
chuck's picture
All Manning has to do is say Assange encouraged him and he will get a better cell.
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Mangone
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A better cell at the very least, Chuck. Interesting that Assange was put in solitary confinement too, obviously the powers that be are very concerned for the welfare of both Julian and Bradley. I wonder if Julian’s remark (below) made on his release on bail was meant as a direct reference to Bradley or another reminder to us all... Many people around the world, who may well be innocent of any crime and have not had a luxury of a trial, are being punished in such a way under the guise of keeping them 'safe'. “During my time in solitary confinement in the bottom of a Victorian prison I had time to reflect on the conditions of those people around the world also in solitary confinement, also on remand, in conditions that are more difficult than those faced by me.” While Manning has spend 6 or 7 months in solitary awaiting trial some, who are not in the public eye, have spent many years in far harsher conditions!
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Mangone
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Only just come across this in Friday's Guardian... 'Unseen police documents provide the first complete account of the allegations against the WikiLeaks founder.' http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden
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chuck
chuck's picture
Interesting and somewhat banal. What I take from it is that human relations are often messy and Assange may not be the world's greatest lover. Probably not a set-up but a gift for the Americans if they want to exploit it.
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Highhat
Highhat's picture
an interesting account Mangone.Where do you find all this information? Well done- thanks
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chuck
chuck's picture
I don't know where Mangone gets his but I find this news site superb... http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/
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Highhat
Highhat's picture
Thanks Chuck. Ha Ha I read it as New Snow. Oh dear- I guess I am up to here with the snow.
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
I don’t actually rely on any particular source but rather piece together things I think might be connected and then try googling various combinations and see what I can find. For instance I might find these two headings while googling ‘failed missile tests’ 2 Feb 2010 ... A US missile defence test simulating an attack by Iran or North Korea has failed, the defence department says 15 Dec 2010 ... Test was a repeat of a failed exercise in January * No preliminary ... US missile defense test fails over Pacific. Wed, Dec 15 2010 and wonder why all the NATO members seem to be clamouring to join the missile shield program when it doesn‘t actually work, or whether it was simply a coincidence that both missile tests failed and left the West seemingly vulnerable to attacks from rogue nations. The best reason I’ve come across for continuing the latest version of the ‘Star Wars’ SDI system is that it is quite effective as a job creation scheme. In its previous incarnation the ‘missile defence shield’ was known, unofficially as ‘Star Wars’ and was, for the most part written by a couple of Sci-Fi writers. I can hazily recall a TV program where Larry Niven claimed that he was responsible, in a large part, for the fall of the Soviet Union because they went bankrupt trying to respond to SDI. Now it seems that there are hopes that a slightly updated rerun might once again catch the imagination of people around the world. I wonder if those hoping to be under this imaginary umbrella are stumping up a heft deposit ;O) Below are a few articles pertaining to the original. (note the “Critics have long contended that the program's tests are too predictable.’ at the bottom of the first paragraph because the ‘excuse‘ that the latest test failed is that it was the first one where the missile ‘flight path’ was not predetermined). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ‘Congressional Democrats are taking a closer look at the U.S. missile defence program, partly in an effort to pare down its high price tag. The Democrats are raising questions about the effectiveness of the anti-missile program and investigating whether its testing regimen is realistic enough to demonstrate its capabilities against real attacks. Critics have long contended that the program's tests are too predictable.’ Associated Press 4-March-2008. WASHINGTON, D.C. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ “We’ve had some effect on the space program. SDI (Space Defense Initiative, or Star Wars) was drafted at our house in Tarzana. In ’93 we watched the DC-X1 fly. It was a toy version of a single-stage ground-to-orbit spacecraft, and the Council generated it. Our design lost out to the current Skunk Works X-33, but the Council caused the revival of the X Program itself.” Larry Niven ‘In 1980, Jerry Pournelle talked me and Marilyn into hosting a gathering of the top minds in the space industry in an attempt to write a space program for the Reagan government, with goals, timetables, and costs. The Citizens Advisory Council for a National Space Policy met four times during the Reagan Administration, and twice since, for harrowing three day weekends. Attendees have included spacecraft designers, businessmen, NASA personnel, astronauts, lawyers. Adding science fiction writers turns out to be stunningly effective. We can translate! We can force these guys to speak English. ‘ http://www.comicsbulletin.com/wolfman/103572529241628.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In a 1997 article Norman Spinrad wrote that Pournelle had written the SDI portion of Ronald Reagan's State of the Union Address, as part of a plan to use SDI to get more money for space exploration, using the larger defense budget. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle
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Highhat
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Good reading Mangone. Please go on
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chuck
chuck's picture
All very interesting Mangone but it distracts from Assange's sexlife. Please try to stay on topic. :)
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Mangone
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The Seventh Element? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxcCE-7YpdM
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Mangone
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Thanks High Hat. So far as I can ascertain, Chuck, he doesn’t have one at the moment :O)
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Mangone
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Have you noticed that the original documents which were released by Wikileaks have somehow become condensed in the public eye to a single video of a helicopter crew shooting people ‘for fun’? It is not an accident that the central arguments about what Wikki does and what it has achieved has been slowly morphed into the much less important argument about the importance of diplomatic cables! I noticed today an article by Glenn Greenwald which is essentially about the dirty tricks being used against Greenwald as he tries to ascertain the truth relating to how Bradley Manning ended up in solitary confinement and specifically the part played by Adrian Lamo. Now I don’t want to get involved in that beyond saying I’m certain that Glenn will eventually dig out the truth. What I hope I have done below is to adopt and adapt his arguments against those who are attacking him to include the wider class of ‘obscurers’ - those who do their very best to hide the truth beneath as much shit as they can possibly fling! Much of it is built on views I expressed in the founding post of this thread amalgamated with Glenn's observations... it ends with a direct quote from the original article. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Opponents who know they cannot win by debate predictably hurl all sorts of threats or invective as a means of distracting attention from the central issues, the issues that really matters. They attack their ’enemies’ in order to create the impression that it's all just some sort of screeching personality feud devoid of substance. That, in turn, causes some bystanders to cheer for whichever side they already like and boo the other side, as though it's some sort of entertaining sport, while everyone else dismisses it all as some sort of trivial Internet catfight not worth sorting out. This tactic is often used to prolong disputes for as long as possible in an attempt to allow the original issues to be either almost completely forgotten or to become completely distorted by half truths and downright lies. "That, ironically, is what WikiLeaks critics (and The New York Times' John Burns) did with the release of the Iraq War documents showing all sorts of atrocities in which the U.S. was complicit: they tried to put the focus on the personality quirks of Julian Assange to distract attention away from the horrifying substance of those disclosures." http://www.salon.com/news/wikileaks/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/...
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Highhat
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I was one of those who fell for the diversion from the terrifying event to Assange and Wikileaks. It is very interesting though to observe the mechanism and that we are all standing on the sideline booing at each other. Very interesting indeed.
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Mangone
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I notice that there are even more 'diversions' Highhat... Wikileaks Twitter account has been subpoenaed. Is the CIA's headquarters in Langley, Fairfax County, in the Eastern District of Virginia? "According to the court order issued on 14 December by the District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, the US Attorney's Office has provided evidence to show that the information held by Twitter is "relevant and material to an ongoing criminal investigation". "The San Francisco-based website was given three days to respond was also told not to disclose that it had been served the subpoena, or the existence of the investigation. However, the same court removed those restrictions on Wednesday and authorised Twitter to disclose the order to its customers. The subpoena requested the details of Mr Assange, Pfc Manning and Icelandic MP Birgitta Jonsdottir, as well as Dutch hacker Rop Gonggrijp and US programmer Jacob Appelbaum, both of whom have previously worked with Wikileaks. The information sought includes mailing addresses and billing information, connection records and session times, IP addresses used to access Twitter, email accounts, as well as the "means and source of payment". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12141530 'Birgitta Jonsdottir, an Icelandic MP, Twittered that the "USA government wants to know about all my tweets and more since november 1st 2009. Do they realize I am a member of parliament in Iceland?" She said she was starting a legal fight to stop the US getting hold of her messages, after being told by Twitter that a subpoena had been issued. She wrote: "department of justice are requesting twitter to provide the info – I got 10 days to stop it via legal process before twitter hands it over." She said the justice department was "just sending a message and of course they are asking for a lot more than just my tweets."' http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/08/us-twitter-hand-icelandic-wi...
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Mangone
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US Democrat Congresswoman, Arizonan, Gabrielle Giffords has been shot and is in critical condition and a federal judge and at least five others were shot and killed by at least one gun man. A man who had been shooting people was tackled by a couple of members of the public before being arrested by the police. It has since transpired that the man has posted several ‘rambling’ angry attacks on government via the Internet and it is being suggested that he might well have been influenced by the angry rhetoric flooding the American media from the likes of Glenn Beck and the Tea Party! '"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government..." Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told a news conference' '"The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry."' http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7080AB20110109 The suspected gunman in the Tucson, Arizona, shooting has "a troubled past" and used a semi-automatic pistol in the spree that killed six people and wounded 13 on Saturday. Authorities are seeking a second male in connection with the shootings. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0823335620110109
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Mangone
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If the San Francisco-based website Twitter is forced by the US authorities to allow access to the confidential details of some of its over sea’s users is that the beginning of the end for any hope of any real user confidentiality on social networks? It made me nervous recently when Blackberry seemed to be making deals with the governments of various countries regarding access to encrypted communications… "Digital communications from mobile phones are routed through powerful computers called ‘exchange servers’. Research In Motion (RIM) based in Ontario, Canada runs the exchange servers for its business-friendly Blackberry mobile device. The company has built a reputation for secure communications, basing all its exchange servers in Canada, much to the consternation of governments around the world, who would like to listen in on these communications." "There have been suggestions that RIM has a deal with Russian and Chinese authorities concerning the decryption of Blackberry communications. RIM and the Indian authorities have reportedly come to an understanding that will now prevent the suspension of some Blackberry services in the world’s second-largest mobile phone market. Authorities in the USA have access to RIM’s secure communications as long as they obtain proper court orders. In a rare public statement RIM has emphasised that it has co-operated with all governments to a consistent level..." http://ibamedialaw.wordpress.com/2010/09/23/blackberry-encryption-and-th... So, if you can’t even phone your friends in private what chance you could leak something detrimental to the image of your government via a social network without them using some law or other, meant to be used for terrorism, to force the network to release your account details and the rest? As much as so many people around the world have shown widespread support for Wikileaks I hope even more stand against this ‘thin edge of the wedge’ attempt to force open the vault of secrecy that helps to protect the whistle blowers from the vengeance of those they have blown the whistle on... after all, it should, at the very least, have to be proved that the information was false to be considered a real crime. Perhaps Twitter should reveal the information to the US government once it has been suitably redacted to protect the innocent, as Wikileaks offered to do for the US government before it released the diplomatic cables! Can't the CIA hack it ;o)
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Highhat
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Yeah I heard about the shooting- damn blast the Tea Party!!! As for revealing encrypted information- it is preposterous. I bet Wikileaks offered the US government a deal- their kind philosophy. Why didn't the US respond?
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Mangone
Mangone's picture
US state department spokesman PJ Crowley has resigned after replying to a question about the treatment of Bradley Manning - which the questioner termed as "torturing a prisoner in a military brig" - as “stupid”. Crowley reportedly replied "I spent 26 years in the air force... What is happening to Manning is ridiculous, counterproductive and stupid, and I don't know why the DoD [Department of Defense] is doing it. Nevertheless, Manning is in the right place." Private Manning is being held on ‘suicide watch’ in solitary confinement under maximum security at the Quantico marine base in Virginia US military jail, where he has been and is shackled at all times. Manning is facing 34 charges relating to the leaking of 720,000 diplomatic and military documents to Wikileaks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12728315 It a pity that Mr Crowley has taken this, what appears to me to be, rather extreme step as it seemed to me that he was always the person that actually said something while the rest were hedging their bets and trying to gauge which way the wind was blowing. I think he was probably pushed - the question is was it Obama or Clinton?
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