Where's my tin hat Stormy?

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Where's my tin hat Stormy?

It was never my intention to become embroiled in the emotional outpourings in the various 'New York' threads and actually said as much on one of them, but I received a personal email from one well known contributor who was curious as to my views on the subject and asked what they were. Having emailed them back I received a further message of puzzlement as to why I didn't post my feelings on the discussion boards. After further thought I've changed my mind.
Rather than intrude on what appears to be general agreement in the other threads I felt it better to post this separately.
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To try and make any sense of the events of the last few days I believe it's necessary to rise above any personal feelings of anger, hatred, patriotism or nationalism, or even pity for the perpetrators of the violence visited on the city and people of New York. It seems to me that the real problem is rooted in the belief that humans are in some way different to other animals on this planet when in fact the differences are few. Man has always been predatory and the male always a hunter and killer, no different to a lion, eagle, shark or fox. It's easy to make the mistake of thinking that because we are so much more advanced as a species than others that our 'civilisation' has some how neutralised our instincts. The rules we live our lives by are enforced as laws. Laws, almost by definition are designed to moderate our natural behaviour, in other words to make us do, or not as the case may be, things that we wouldn't do naturally. It follows that a civilised society only works because most people abide by the rules and punish those that don't, it therefore follows that civilised behaviour is to some extent artificial. There has always been, and always will be individuals who refuse to play by the rules. There is no possible way of preventing these 'renegades' from pursuing their own agenda. In fact it is BECAUSE human nature has this facet that the species managed to develop beyond any other life form on the planet. The truth is these people are 'normal'; they just don't conform to the profile of most of the rest of us. Put another way, a rapist is a rapist because we have laws that say you can't shag someone without permission, whereas in the animal kingdom it is normal behaviour to help yourself. The rapist is simply following his/her natural instincts and refuses to be bound by our common laws. (I hasten to add that I am not excusing or condoning rape, I am as disgusted by it as the next person, I am merely trying to illustrate that behaviour becomes unacceptable by human decree, not by instinct.)

Now the really damning part of my philosophy is the dreaded belief that caused so much trouble on another thread, RELIGION. Humans are I believe, the only life form on Earth that practises religion, and they are almost maniacal in the defence and propagation of their personal variety. As I've said before, I believe they are all founded on superstition and fear and there is no stronger force in the minds of men; they are prepared to kill and die for their beliefs. And that is what they have been doing in New York!

It is also my belief that there is no such thing as an 'innocent' person. I had better explain my meaning before you get the wrong end of the stick. Of course a baby has no obvious guilt, but that is a temporary condition. We are all responsible for the conduct of our own rulers whether we elect them or not. If we allow them to pursue policies that we do not approve of and decline to stand up and be counted then we are guilty by association. The world these days is too small to turn a blind eye and say it's not my business, it's everybody's business and until there is one world government that disallows national armies and guarantees equal rights for each and all there isn't the remotest chance of world harmony.

As things are, the worst possible thing to do is NOTHING! That just encourages bullies and terrorists and gives them confidence to do even worse things to get their way. Unfortunately whatever is done people are going to die, it's inevitable! If that premise is accepted then they may as well die in the attempt to prevent terrorism as because of it. To be a leader it is necessary to be dispassionate and do what is best for the majority in the long run. This stance is not going to please the pacifists, the weak or the do-gooders.

I believe therefore that democracy has no choice but to pursue terrorists wherever they hide and destroy them. Whether or not bin Laden is responsible for NY I don't know, but what I do know is that if he is removed from the equation he will probably be replaced, and his replacement will know his cards are marked from the start. I've noticed that since the newly formed anti-terrorist alliance has started to make plans to eradicate terrorism the IRA has decided to offer new talks on de-commissioning. Can it be that they see the writing on the wall and are looking for a get-out before the @!#$ hits the fan?
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I would futher like to say that I am heartily dismayed at the amount of anti-American hysteria on the forums. Whether we like it or not , without the help and participation of the US, both in terms of logistical contributions before their involvement of armed personel, and subsequently when they gave their lives on European soil, we would be living under the Nazi jackboot!

I for one am very grateful for their help in our time of need!

Mark Yelland-Brown
Anonymous's picture
In an orderly way.
justyn_thyme
Anonymous's picture
Thank you Mississippi. At last, the truth.
stormy
Anonymous's picture
It's on it's way mississippi. i didn't need it after all. I must admit, i nearly sent you an email on the same subject but i was overcome by a sudden forum apathy. I've since recovered. I don't see why you you haven't posted this before. You will probably need the tin hat (writers are reknown lefties - witness the ill thought gumf by respected authors in the grauniad last week) but, as far as i'm concerned, anyone that at least thinks before posting is welcome to their viewpoint. I think the most imprtant aspect of all this is too see through the propaganda put out by both sides. this is most important. no doubt people of a left disposition have loved my posts that knock the media and the fibs (typo deliberate) but i would equally question their assertion that 5000 kids die in iraq everyday due to sanctions. really? is the brain in neutral? how come the sanctions have not included medicines and basic foodstuffs for at least 6 years now? how come Saddam can afford to rebuild his infrastructure and armed forces/weapons? do you really think the situation for the children of iraq will improve if the sanctions are lifted? sanctions never work anyway. (see history for details) perhaps we could share that tin hat ?
Roy Bateman
Anonymous's picture
Well said, both. While I broadly agree with most of the above posts - very good points were made in both - I can't agree with Missi's hopeful but Utopian ideal of a "World Government". Hell, I don't even want to be governed from Brussels! We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, mate. The only way by which such a "New World Order" (get the reference?) could possibly be imposed and maintained is by some superior, irresistible force. Fascist, Communist.. let's simply call it Totalitarian. Of course, there are precedents, though on a smaller scale: Stalin subjugated huge tracts of non-Russian territory under the Soviets, Tito kept the Balkans mercifully quiet for decades. Neither system lasted and both ultimately fell apart in spectacular fashion. The idea's hardly new - indeed, my all-time favourite film is Korda's 1936 reworking of Well's (The Shape of) "Things to Come." Probably, no-one knows it nowadays, though it's a genuinely terrifying and visionary piece with one of the best scores ever written. In it, an exhausted, war-weary world is subjugated (By gas bombs!) and united under the control of airmen and scientists. It's quite easy to see a proto-fascist parallel here, though Well's book was written much earlier. Wells was, of course, a socialist. Interestingly, human nature breaks through in the end and agitators urge a mob on to destroy the latest scientific discovery - a gigantic gun, the purpose of which is to send manned flights around the moon. This was, of course, six years before the first V2 flew. The capsule is actually launched, and the film ends on an optimistic note urging mankind on to further space exploration. In real life, however, democracy will always lead to fragmentation of peoples. Many Scots and Welshmen don't want to be governed from London, for instance; Basques want their freedom from Madrid, and there are strong separatist movements in most large countries. Give people the vote, you see, and they'll use it! So, how do we deal with terrorists? By genuine international co-operation, where that's possible, and by force if neccessary. No nation or people can, or should, sit back and allow these groups to slaughter its citizens or wreck its economy - that's not democracy; it's the worst kind of banditry, fascism, call it what you will. Certainly, it wil be an expensive and never-ending task, and there may well be failures. That is no argument for sitting wringing our hands and hoping someone else not us gets it next time. Because, make no mistake, some poor beggars will. Terrorists love their work - their outrages confer power, wealth and status upon inadequate nobodies who'd never achieve any other form of "fame." No amount of heartfelt prayer and marching has taken even one of the IRA's weapons out of commission. Why should they? Are these the sort of people who're going to suddenly decide, over a quiet pint, to give all their planning and plotting up, and go back to working for a living? Yeah, sure.. Two final points - if Bush Senior had had the backbone to push on to Baghdad a decade ago, we might never have seen this awful tragedy. And, as I've stated elsewhere, if I see that treacly runt Blair playing the statesman once more, I'll kick my TV in. So, terror's a wordwide problem, Tony? So why not Ireland? How come the IRA, in all its ever-shifting forms, doesn't count? How come murderers swan round as ministers, their handsome salaries and expenses paid by us and their victims? Sounds fair, right, as long as you get another good soundbite out of it? Didn't you, as Shadow Home Secretary, vote every year AGAINST the Prevention of Terrorism legislation? It's good to know we're governed by a man of such steely resolve. Not.
Mark Yelland-Brown
Anonymous's picture
I agree with you stormy about Sadaam, he is still building palaces while these children are starving, why is that never mentioned? I don't agree with you Mississippi about man just being another animal. Man physically may be, but the ability to realise his own mortality, the abilty to think, create at such a higher level, technically, I think, negates your view. However, because man is so like other animals, is the reason why he is so screwed up! All those instincts integrated with a supposedly `superior` consiousness. For me the idea of the falleness of human nature explains our human predicament, the fact that after 21 centuries our world is still in such a state of crisis. You blame religion, I blame the created not being able to acknowledge the truth of a creator or his need of one. Being `religious` has nothing to do with bending the knee to whoever created you, it's just man playing God and claiming a higher authority. If we really look in our hearts beyond our own angst and rebelliousness we know we are helpless in need of guidance from the one who made us. Or alternatively we can just go along, say the world is crap, life is crap and that's as good as it gets, without taking personal responsinbility for our role in making it a better place. Look forward to a kind and measured response. OOOO!
mississsippi
Anonymous's picture
I suppose it WAS a little naive of me to think I could slip in a surreptitious reference to religion without Mark noticing. It wasn't meant as a dig at you Mark, nor was it meant to re-kindle our previous discussion; I thought we had taken that as far as possible and was happy to let it lie. I disagree that the only choices we have are to accept life is crap or appeal to your god Mark. I believe there is sufficient numbers of decent caring humans on a world-wide basis to rise above and overcome the greed and hatred on this earth. Let's all begin to take responsibility for our planet and species instead of throwing our hands in the air and saying we're just sad people who need help from unearthly sources! That's just a cop out! I too, had strong feelings about the almost hysterical and ill-considered claims that America is responsible for the deaths of specific numbers of kids in Iraq, but felt it better to keep my mouth shut, rather than run the risk of accusations of being less than human! (Did I just write that? Am I getting sensitive? Think I'll take myself off to boot camp and toughen up!) Saddam Hussein is a typical example of the kind of scum that rises to to the top of the cesspool because no one has the guts to finish him off. As Roy so rightly says, if George Bush 1st. had had the guts to go get him in the first place, instead of spending his time kissing Thatcher's arse the world would be one reptile short. (Couldn't help elaborating on your point Roy, sorry!) Even better, if he had kept his dick in his trousers we wouldn't have that sad excuse for a president we now have who sees himself as starring in a re-make of 'The Alamo'. To clarify my view on the world government point Roy, I didn't actually mean 'world government' as such, I meant world peace keeper within the context of individual national government. In other words, with the one and only responsibility of preventing armed agression between free independent nations and answerable to a 'proper' United Nations repected by all. I don't think this is unrealistic, in fact I believe eventually there will be no alternative..... except Armageddon. By the way, the Armageddon cartoon on the front of this weeks Private Eye is a direct lift from Spike Milligan's war memoirs; it was far funnier coming from him!
Mark Yelland-Brown
Anonymous's picture
Mississippi, He's your God as well, he's honestly not that exclusive! About taking thing as far as they could go, you bring it up, and if I feel like it I'll respond, but it's all choice, and anyway, I still love your Bobby Charlton, you huge river you!
Fecky
Anonymous's picture
I thought the debate was opened up a little now. Don't let's slip back into the 'old' hat, never mind the tin ones, which I am quite willing to knit (given time).
mississippi
Anonymous's picture
You can knit tin hats? Could you run me off a couple of hundred yards of chain link fencing? P.S. Don't bother about a Fairisle pattern, plain will do!
robert
Anonymous's picture
re saddam, if the west hadn't armed the fucker in the first place there wouldn't have been a gulf war.
robert
Anonymous's picture
sorry, i thought the censor thing would have stopped "fucker" from appearing
Liana
Anonymous's picture
well said
stormy
Anonymous's picture
um, perhaps the f*cker would have bought his arms from China for his war with Iran then. don't forget about the old USS of R. they didn't exactly hang back either in the arming of various nations in the middle east.
mississippi
Anonymous's picture
I seem to remember that during the Falklands war the French sold Exocets to both us and the Argentinians. Rumour had it at the time that they ran two production lines, one with English inscriptions on the bloody things and the other with Spanish, or what ever lingo the Argies use! And whilst not condoning, in fact whilst completely deploring, the manufacture and sale of weapons of war by any nation I recognise that Stormy has a point, if there is a demand for weapons SOMEONE will supply them!
robert
Anonymous's picture
an interesting point...if someone is going to supply weapons for terrorists to use against us, then it may as well be us. at least then we know what they've got, and it keeps people in work.
british museum
Anonymous's picture
we fuckin nicked em mate. wanna fight?
mississippi
Anonymous's picture
With all the f***ers and f***in going on around here no ones got time for a fight.
Andrea
Anonymous's picture
Er...make love not war?? (Can I share them condoms down the bunker?)
mississippi
Anonymous's picture
Yeah, well some people just love to make war!
meremortal
Anonymous's picture
Less drugs more hugs!!! As for the condoms yyyyyeeeesssssssss indeedy.....err i mean well if you'd like!!
Andrea
Anonymous's picture
Cor...best offer I've had for ages. Er...I take it that WAS an offer...?
meremortal
Anonymous's picture
Is it polite to make offers on public threads!?? Aren't public threads rental suits? In which case is it polite to make offers to rented suits?
Andrea
Anonymous's picture
More polite than making offers to bare threads...
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