P*****d off Poet Vents, please comment, need advice?

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Sun, 2008-11-09 16:38

Perhaps I should cease from offering constructive criticism of offerings on this site - and simply leave meaningless congratulations. I was under the mistaken belief that people post work here so that they might share their work in a sort of extended writing group, in order to improve their writing.

It seems that people take offence when I dare to request correct punctuation and grammar, insult my intelligence rather then entering into a proper literary discussion, and then patronise me when I dare to speak my mind, having been insulted.

I attempt to read several pieces of other people's work for every piece I post myself, and almost always leave a comment, highlighting what I found particularly good, and offering an opinion. I usually comment on poetry, since that is my forte, I believe. My opinions are always from the heart - I am passionate about writing, particularly poetry. I try to check back later, hoping that the writer themselves and other writers have also commented - how wonderful if a proper discussion grows around a piece of work, and the writer is able to edit and perfect, using the comments they agree with to aid them.

I have found myself improve as a writer through using feedback from this site - I have been here on and off since the early days, many years ago, and learn not just from my own work but through others' writing and critques.

So what's it going to be, folks? Is this site a place to enter into discussion, a place for writers to present their work for comment and improvement, or shall we all just stop bothering to comment at all?

Yours, rather upset,

Jennifer

Sun, 2008-11-09 17:12

blaster219

If people want to post material here, then they should expect to receive comments and feedback. Unless they are an undiscovered literary genius then not all of that feedback is going to be 100% praise. Unless the feedback given is off the "you suck, your work sucks, f'ck off and die" variety then any feedback should be welcome. Personally, I get a good feeling when someone comments on something I've written even if its negative. It means that someone took the time to read it. As long as any feedback advice is constructive, I don't mind if someone says that a piece could be better. Saying that, if someone is going to point out errors, it is nice if they point out something they like as well. The "sh#t sandwich" so to speak. If people DON'T want comments, then they might as just well post it to their blogs and switch off commenting.

Sun, 2008-11-09 18:35

ralph

Jenn, It must be remembered that a lot of writing is all about vanity (most of it I feel). The biggest fear for a vanity writer is any criticism. It hurts them to the bone and they find it hard to deal with. They become defensive, harsh, and even silent. I was guilty of this many years ago, before I took writing seriously, did a degree in it and realised that criticism is vital for any writer with aspirations to develop. Writing is about giving and receiving. The good and brilliant thing about this site is that it is a fantastic starting point. Some wonderful writers started out here, honed their talent and then moved on and been and will be successful. This has happened only with dialogue between the writer and the reader. Sometimes it still happens here, maybe not as much because the site maybe going through one of its fallow periods, there have been a few of them, but it always bounces back. I still hang around because I still like to read new writers and encourage. I write on many other websites that are for serious, more experienced writers and they are very good also. However, a lot of the submissions here at ABCTales is writing at its most rawest and that has always been exciting. It is a place where the new and untrained can express themselves. Sometimes because of this, you can find the truly sublime and of course the diabolical. It is a big box of chocolates. Jennifer, if you need some info about other websites then I'll gladly pass them on, but stick around here also, you never know what you find both in writing and reading. Ta Ralph

Sun, 2008-11-09 18:58

jennifer

Thanks for the back-up and considered words, both of you. You are both right - if people cannot take it and do not want to learn, then they should not be here! Ralph - I would be very interested. I have never posted anywhere else, really, and it might be good for me to expand my horizons now I finally feel I have something worth showing to the wider world. All better now - wrote it out: http://www.abctales.com/story/jennifer/impassioned-meant Jen xxx

Mon, 2008-11-10 14:07

Bradene

I love to get feedback especially if it is constructive. I'm self taught so I know I make a lot of mistakes. I'm pleased when someone likes my work, of course but, I don't want to be led up the garden path. I want to know if my writing is worthwhile. There was only one piece I have posted here that I wouldn't change and that was my Sonnet to my Father, written back in the days before I understood them. What I wrote was from my heart and I am loathe to change it for fear of changing the whole essence of how I felt at the time of writing it. But bring it on I say, as long as they are not rude or downright cruel I am open to criicism anytime. Val

Mon, 2008-11-10 15:19

bobblehat2023

I like getting any feedback as long as it's not personally abusive. Even if get feedback that, from my point of view, is functionally useless I still feel it's a privilege that someone bothered to read my writing and have an opinion on it. I think Ralph is mostly right although I don't know whether I'd use the description 'vanity writer'. Lots of people have quite understandable reasons for being overly-protective of their work, particularly if they're using writing primarily as a way of explaining important and/or painful personal experiences to themselves. Understandable doesn't equal sensible or sustainable, though, and if I think if people really can't even deal with the sort of clearly constructive and very gently delivered criticism that Jennifer offers, they're probably not ready to publish stuff in a public forum, yet.

Mon, 2008-11-10 17:00

jennifer

Hmm, Ewan has pointed out to me that the rather heated discussions I have been having are in fact the kind of discussions we want to encourage around writing here - where people have differences of opinion and disagree. What p'd me off was someone patronising me - telling me I had not understood things which I had - unfortunately, my biggest personal issue is people treating me as stupider than I am because they imagine that being young and pretty renders me brainless. Anyhoo, much calmer today, been writing and snivelling away. I shall give as good as I get - like bukharin, I like comments because they show somebody has bothered to respond to what they have read, regardless of whether they offer literary criticism also! Bring it on, people, Witch Bitch may well be back! Plus, I got two sets of cherries today, so am very glowing and smug right now! Thanks for all the input - you have sorted me out! Jen xx

Mon, 2008-11-10 18:56

luigi_pagano

There is one category that seems to have been overlooked in this discussion and that is people who write for fun. I am one of those. Perhaps a certain amount of vanity comes into it when complimentary comments are received but it isn't the main objective. I derive satisfaction just by experimenting with words and if my work meets with approval all well and good, but if it fails to register with others I don't let it worry me. For me it is an enjoyable pastime. That doesn't mean that I don't recognise a good thing when I see it and say so to the author concerned. If a poem or a story doesn't move me, though, I don't feel qualified to harshly criticise and prefer to remain silent. To do otherwise might seem patronising.

Tue, 2008-11-11 01:44

blackjack-davey

sanctimonious git

Tue, 2008-11-11 06:54

#10

jennifer

I don't think that one has to be a trained literary critic to be qualified to comment on a piece of literature - after all, if only critics read writers' work, there would be very few works sold or read at all! I value opinions from everyone who cares to offer them - the amateur for-pleasure reader is just as important to me as the experienced writer. I even sometimes inflict my writing on my students to see what their reaction is!

Tue, 2008-11-11 09:41

#11

luigi_pagano

In reply to blackjack-davey, I would have expected a more intelligent response than sanctimonious git. Is that his only contribution to the discussion? If that represents the standard of comments one can expect I rather remain silent.

Tue, 2008-11-11 10:03

#12

maddan

QED, perhaps.

Tue, 2008-11-11 11:03

#13

luigi_pagano

If by 'quod erat demonstrandum' you mean that you agree with blackjack-davey's assessment why don't you say so in plain English so that there are no misunderstandings? I'll have you know I can trade insults just like anybody else and there nothing sanctimonious about that!

Tue, 2008-11-11 13:09

#14

Enzo

"...people treating me as stupider than I am because they imagine that being young and pretty renders me brainless. ." I know how you feel, Jen.

Tue, 2008-11-11 13:39

#15

Bradene

Wow! writing does seem to bring out the passion in us that's for sure. It reminds me of a lioness protecting her cubs :) and that can't be bad. Val

Tue, 2008-11-11 14:46

#16

jennifer

Glad I have you as an empath, Enzo! Yes, I am lioness, hear me roar!!!!!! Hakuna Matata!

Wed, 2008-11-12 00:04

#17

jxmartin

Jen, You aren't out of line in your comments. Many of us take the time to read and evaluate the work of another writer and then frame a carefully thought out critique, only to be scalded in the acid bath of a wounded ego. There is no cure for it, except to refrain from reviewing the works of these "more sensitive" writers. They will discover for themselves that editors, and the reading public, are much more callous of their sensibilities. Many of us do appreciate the time that other writers take to review our work and learn from their reactions to it. Like much of life, the "Greek Messengers" are reviled for carrying the bad news. Shake it off, offer honest comments and know that most of us really do appreciate the time and interest that you and other thoughtful writers spend trying to help others. Vaya Con Dios, J.X.M

Wed, 2008-11-12 01:24

#18

Foster

So are you bothered when other writers don't take your crit seriously? Wouldn't the simple solution be to not give them anymore feedback? There are many writers on this site who are starved for some good crit. I don't think we should get upset if someone isn't open to our suggestions; just don't give them anymore.

Wed, 2008-11-12 07:11

#19

jennifer

Useful advice, Foster, but will not work for two reasons: 1) I read work on here as often as I can. I browse the 'recently added', seeking inspiration and magic. I tend to click on titles without looking at names, so I am not prejudiced by previous works or my opinions on it or the writers. I almost always leave a comment on everything I read. If I do not leave a comment, it is because the work has given me nothing to say - because it has not inspired me to. 2) Being a scatter-brained poet, unless I kept a database of every writer I comment on and their reactions, I will not remember who reacted in which way. I have better things to do with my time, i.e. write! Jen x

Wed, 2008-11-12 08:00

#20

Enzo

The whole point of this site is supposedly to "explore and develop your creative writing skills, get support from our editors, publish your short stories and poems online, get feedback and writing tips and meet fellow writers, all for free." That's why I've never understood why anyone would join this site, post on here, and then get upset with the feedback they get. Surely feedback is the whole point. Equally I don't understand why a site with those aims still doesn't have a notifier for new comments on one of your own pieces - or some other system of facilitating discussion. (When booktribes was an active project, they had a good forum system - you comment on a piece and that comment starts a thread in the forum, so both are always in sync). If you want an online repository or back up, then get some free webspace, post on a private blog or just email yourself. Don't post on a bloody community site.

Wed, 2008-11-12 12:43

#21

blaster219

I've always felt that this site had a much more mature user-base than some other's I've posted to. DeviantArt and Gaia seem to be all about yaoi fanfiction, and if you don't have two, supposedly straight, underage characters from a popular media franchise doing it, then you get virtually no feedback. Gaia is particularly bad at this and some people there "advise" that any story longer that 500 words is "way too long and boring". Consequently, I value the feedback from this site much more than I would elsewhere. People here actually take the the time to offer advice as well as egostroking. I like me ego being stroked, but I also like being told where I can improve (usually in catching and correcting typos and grammar errors).

Fri, 2008-11-21 13:32

#22

tcook

It took us a long time to decide to put comment boxes on here - precisely because of this type of problem. I think we just have to take the rough with the smooth - even the stupid comments like blackjack davey's. We can all be adults when we want to be - and we can all fly off the handle on a particular day. I try to monitor most of the comments and delete the stupid ones - for the moment they seem to working well but if anyone has a problem then they only have to email me and I will try and sort things out. And Enzo, yes, I would love a 'reaction sensor' on here but it is complex to put in and will cost a few thousand pounds to do.

Tue, 2008-11-25 20:19

#23

luigi_pagano

I am much obliged to you for your kind words, Paul. You are absolutely right when you say I could be a grandfather to some of the youngsters here on ABC. I am 73 years of age and not too far off 74 but I'd like to think that I am young at heart. Kind regards.

Tue, 2008-11-25 22:16

#24

andrea

Indeed, Luigi is much loved over at UKA, and is a highly respected Italian Stallion to boot. http://www.ukauthors.com http://www.ukapress.com

http://www.ukauthors.com

http://www.ukapress.com

Wed, 2008-11-26 17:42

#25

tcook

And Luigi is much appreciated here too! Long may he post on both sites.

Fri, 2008-11-28 12:05

#26

blackjack-davey

Christmas comes but once a year And then we all get diarrhea It's not my fault, I blame the meat Road kill squirrel with flattened feet...

Sat, 2008-11-29 10:22

#27

jennifer

Why oh why can't critics see that my words are leaves from the poet-tree; they may not be great they may not be grand but it saves my head, so from where I stand my poems will last as long as my sanity or vice versa, (silly me) and if they see and don't agree then they can kiss my... (he he he)

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