When is a poem not a poem?

27 posts / 0 new

Topic locked

Sun, 2012-01-01 10:55

When is a poem not a poem? What makes a poem?

Cast aside the simplistic notion that a poem must rhyme. Nearly all of our great poets have written poetry that doesn’t do any such thing.

Let go of the idea that a poem is something best read aloud, unless the Bible is a poem, unless Bukowski’s Ham on Rye is a poem. Unless the BBC’s shipping forecast is a poem.

Poetry has rhythm? Really? So has prose: I’m sorry I can’t take your call right now is a standard response on a telephone answering machine – as well as being a perfect example of iambic pentameter (as pointed out by Stephen Fry).

What about the idea that poems should look like poems. Well tell me, what does a poem look like when you listen to it read aloud?

So anybody any ideas? What is a poem?

Sun, 2012-01-01 12:27

scratch

Looks like a pretty good job to me Stan. Happy New Year.

Sun, 2012-01-01 15:43

Leander42

Blake?

Sun, 2012-01-01 16:05

Leander42

Before that, of course, pretty much all our great poets rhymed all the time. You'd have to go back to the Middle Ages to reach a point when they didn't. Which therefore means that some of them didn't...doesn't it. Which therefore suggests that rhyme is not an essential component for a poem. Doesn't it?

Sun, 2012-01-01 16:49

h jenkins

Not Blake, Leander - John Lennon. As for the general question, I suppose it's a matter of taste though for me the best poetry certainly has a discernable metre and mostly rhymes. That's not to say a poem has to have those qualities but I do think a lot of what people now call poetry is really prose masquerading as poetry. What I think rhyme and metre do best is to help a poem be memorable. How many people can recite any modern, free-verse poetry from memory? Not many I suspect. I do worry that many modern poets, by eschewing rhyme and metre, are in serious danger of talking only to themselves and alienating their work from 'Joe Public'. I ask myself - Is that wise? Is it not a similar situation to the debate about 'modern art', which many people find inaccessible at best. Here's what I think is an interesting point. When the BBC did the 'Nation's Favourite Poems' thing, of the 100 poems chosen, 86 had straightforward rhyme structures and most of the rest had a discernable metre. Even when looking at the next 100 in the list, 72 of them had a clear rhyme structure too. I think it's therefore clear that most people find poetry with rhyme and metre to be more memorable. I agree that's not the sole criterion but it does seem to be important to most people. Helvigo Jenkins

Helvigo Jenkins

Sun, 2012-01-01 16:57

Leander42

Archie That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. It's like the language of poetry has an extra dimension not used in everyday speech.

Sun, 2012-01-01 17:09

Leander42

Helvigo, I wonder then if rhyming was simply a tool to aid the memory in a time when the majority of the population could not write and plays and poetry were passed verbally. I don't have a problem with rhyming poetry. I just don't think it's a vital organ. Metre though? That could be more important - especially when we read aloud. Then again, there's some pretty good doggerel around - then again doggerel rhymes (always?). Hmmmh. I still don't know.

Sun, 2012-01-01 17:19

Leander42

"I do worry that many modern poets, by eschewing rhyme and metre, are in serious danger of talking only to themselves and alienating their work from 'Joe Public'. I ask myself - Is that wise? Is it not a similar situation to the debate about 'modern art', which many people find inaccessible at best." This is what I don't understand - how does this alienate their work from 'Joe Public'. I think the biggest thing which alienates a reader is poetry where the actual meaning is inaccessable (never could spell that word) - which is why the majority of the population don't read poetry. That in itself suggests that all poets are speaking only amongst themselves - as are most modern day painters and sculptors.

Sun, 2012-01-01 17:59

chuck

I hope this doesn't sound elitist but how should poets go about 'reaching Joe Public'. Nudes on the cover? Free beer with every copy? Topless readings?

Sun, 2012-01-01 18:14

#10

chuck

OK I'll rephrase that. How do publishers reach Joe Public? If they know they can sell a few signed copies to the in crowd and get their money back they'll publish it. For Joe Public there's Dan Brown.

Sun, 2012-01-01 18:23

#11

oldpesky

Interesting topic, to which I have nothing to add at present, but hope to be somewhat enlightened after reading the views of others.

Sun, 2012-01-01 18:26

#12

chuck

Well Archie I admire your idealism. Unfortunately I don't share your awe of Joe Public's literary aspirations.

Sun, 2012-01-01 18:30

#13

chuck

Well Archie I admire your idealism. Unfortunately I don't share your awe of Joe Public's literary aspirations. My experience of Joe suggests he may well resent being educated on the underground.

Sun, 2012-01-01 18:34

#14

chuck

Oooops....little problem with the edit feature there. Stan makes a good point. Who precisely is Joe Public?

Sun, 2012-01-01 18:59

#15

chuck

Gawd mate now you're asking. If he's anything like me he might read the odd poem on a website somewhere. ABC tales would be a good place to start.

Sun, 2012-01-01 19:18

#16

chuck

Well Archie I'm probably a fairly typical middle class grammar school drop out myself. Didn't go to university. But for some reason I like to read. Always have. All kinds of stuff. That doesn't mean somebody who doesn't share my tastes in literature is a moron. I just read your poem about the lizard girl. Thought it was great. Very amusing. Lot's of interesting references. Joe may find it a little too demanding. Or it may brighten up his day. Certainly it deserves a wider audience. You may be right about selling poetry books on the underground. Seems like a minority taste to me but worth a try. If you're looking to reach the general public you may do better writing song lyrics.

Sun, 2012-01-01 19:33

#17

Leander42

Ah. I have it now. You can tell it's a poem because Joe Public won't read it.

Sun, 2012-01-01 19:42

#18

chuck

Cereal packets for sure. Public libraries. But it's not a class issue at all. Philistinism transcends class boundaries.

Sun, 2012-01-01 20:05

#19

h jenkins

Hm. I seem to have put in a bit of a red herring - albeit unintentionally. I was just using 'Joe Public' as a shorthand for people who read and enjoy reading. I don't think it matters who 'Joe Public' is, nor do I think he or she (Jo Public?) should be defined. I was simply trying to say that there's a wealth of evidence that some poetry does appeal to enough people to make writing it a worthwhile enterprise. That being the case, it seems to me to be perverse for modern poets to write in a way that is demonstrably, and seemingly intentionally, inaccessible to those people who might want to read their work. I dunno - but I think I perceive more than a smattering of elitism. I think I agree with Archie. It's not that poetry HAS to rhyme or have a metrical form, but it's odd that many poets now seem to go out of their way to avoid it - as though eschewing populism is somehow more literate or even noble. Or perhaps I'm just an old dinosaur. Helvigo Jenkins

Helvigo Jenkins

Sun, 2012-01-01 20:49

#20

scratch

A raptor or or one of the other types like a brontosaurus. Helvigo you (like all of the other contributors) have spoken sense.

Sun, 2012-01-01 20:51

#21

scratch

And I agree with the comments about inaccessible rubbish poetry written by who knows and read by who knows.

Sun, 2012-01-01 22:03

#22

Leander42

I'm beginning to feel like the boy at school who starts the fights and then runs away...but I'm going to bed.

Sun, 2012-01-01 23:08

#23

scratch

Stan, I played this link to my class before the end of term and it had an effect.

Sun, 2012-01-01 23:34

#24

scratch

Yes and that's because of the theatre. And who goes or gives a toss about the theatre? Not my kids, or their parents. It's only the theatre goers that think they care. And then they eat prawn sandwiches and wear black shoes.

Mon, 2012-01-02 00:24

#25

scratch

Mon, 2012-01-02 00:27

#26

scratch

Correct. We must recall and celebrate the oral tradition. Do not underestimate the power of the audible word. George Carlin certainly didn't.

Mon, 2012-01-02 23:46

#27

Lem

*small, subject-changing cough* On a far simpler note, there's things like Apollinaire's Calligrammes, e.g. 'Il pleut'. How much is it image and how much is it prose?

Topic locked