Never Mind First Kiss!

not all of us shag goats when out in the sticks Karl.

i try not to, but their swine tempations get too much for me to bear. damn letham

Not to mention the vinegar... Where you off to then, John? You quoting Melanie lyrics now?

Blimey Karl thought everybody remembered their first time no matter how drunk they were. In Tipton everything is inanimate and these days I can't even catch the inanimate stuff, Fecky. Can you not imagine sex as a purely physical one-off close encounter of the whatever kind? Does it always have to come pre-wrapped in emotion, angst and guilt and if so, what are all those one night stands about? Surely somebody somewhere must look back on a one-night stand and say 'Wow, I'm really glad that happened.' Angst and guilt are pretty negative emotions in my book. Just get on with it. I don't think any of this implies that I'm a 'sex machine'. Far from it. I reckon I'm your average bloke with your average appetites which I'm not afraid to admit to. I like the odd pint of beer too but I don't think that makes me a drinking machine.

interesting that it has been mostly blokes talking candidly about their first sexual experiences ... i think there is a general belief that it is women who discuss these things more ... and this belief is confirmed by the number of frank conversations i have on the subject with my women friends ... (though in fairness i do have these kind of conversations with my close male friends too ... gay and straight ...) i have known men who got annoyed knowing that their sex lives, techniques and intimate parts were being talked about ...in great detail ... (and with great mirth) this thread is a bit of an eye opener ... i would like to know if it is the protected anonymity of the net that allows the men here to blurt out the details ... or is it that they usually DO talk about these things with their friends ... (over and above the imagined "Phwoar! I gave her one mate." ...) ... so is it that the women keep it among themselves and the men show off in public? and in answer to john ... (with his irresistably winning list of what makes a woman sexy on another thread ...) ... yes ... sex CAN of course be a one off free from guilt and angst ... i didn't used to think it could ... but i will hold my hand up and say "wow i'm really glad that happened" ... about certain experiences ... although i prefer it with the emotion added and also find it gets better the more you do it with one person ... finally am i the only one to find the term "fat arsed swede" unpleasant ... or am i being unbearably prim?

I was 19, very drunk, met up with a a bloke who used to go to my school, his nick-name was "norm" because his hair cut resembled a norman helmet (no pun intended). 4 of us, me , Norm, and 2 girls ended up in Norm's rather squalid bedsit, 2 single beds, lights out..... let the fumbling commence....who said romance is dead !!! I ran into my first about 10 years later, she had become a friend of my mum and was drinking with her in a pub.....it all comes back to haunt you in the end.....

I thought 'fat-arsed Swede' was a trifle unkind, too. And yes, I think it's a mixture of both, Fish. The anonimity of the net PLUS the peacock syndrome. Be interesting to hear what the blokes have to say about this... One-night stands? Had a few, never regretted any of 'em.

i do not recall the first time i attempted to undo a young lady's bra ...

I agree with you, fish. Making love is better than sex but sex is still pretty good in it's own right. I'm a bloke who likes champagne whilst still appreciating the odd pint of brown ale. As for blokes talking about all this stuff I can only speak for myself. All I've done is follow the natural thread of the original question 'First Kiss' through the 'First Bra' thing to the 'First Shag' thing where it was obviously going to end up. Don't wish to be smug but I did predict this in posting no. 7 of this thread. I've answered openly and honestly as I always do. Only the names and places have been changed to protect the (so-called) innocent. First kiss, first bra and first shag stories are all substantially true. I think it's a real interesting subject if only because it's common ground to all of us. It's strange isn't it that something so common place is still such a big deal. The only other thing I can think of that is so common to all mankind yet still causes such a goddamn fuss is death. Maybe we ought to have a thread on that. As for hiding behind the anonymity of the net - no way. If it weren't for the few lunatics out there (and I don't mean on ABC tales) I'd gladly post my name, address, phone no. inside leg measurement or anything else for that matter. The truth is I'd love to be able to discuss all this and the great stuff on the other threads face to face in a proper dynamic full and frank exchange of views. A few bottles of Pinot Grigio to help it all go down wouldn't go amiss. I haven't been posting on ABC tales for very long but some of the regular names already seem like friends (Andrea, Liana, Wolf, iFB, mississippi et al). I hope this doesn't sound too forward or presumptious. Where I come from you tell your friends 'like it is' and somehow, miraculously, they still end up liking you anyway. That's what makes 'em friends. After all, it's pretty easy to like someone when you only know the nice stuff. Sad to say, fish that when blokes talk about this stuff down the pub - and I'm talking pretty ancient history here so maybe things have changed what with the (mythical) new man - it usual is at the crude level of 'We did it and I wuz grate.' Believe me, I wish it was OK to tell your mates just how unbelievably sweet Lucy (for example) tasted the first time you kissed her, how her perfume just about made you faint on the spot, how soft she felt, how the random strand of hair that fell across her face drove you nearly crazy, how the very sexiest thing about her was the little mole/scar that she hated and how your heart almost broke in two everytime you just looked at her. . . . all that stuff. But you can't - not my mates anyway. Maybe I've just got the wrong mates but I love 'em anyway. They make me laugh and we all support the same footie team. We've all got roughly the same drinking capacity as well so you never know which one of 'em will fall over first. This just adds to the ambience. Anyway, this is what your mates are for. It's a boy thing you know. You know, blokes and girls ain't a different species. When all's said and done we're just a different gender. I've got the sneakiest feeling that despite what the feminists, misogynists, anti-feminists and any other 'ists' lurking out there would have you believe we all want roughly the same thing. Which is to say the friendship and love of our brothers and sisters, a few quiet beers, a nice sunny day, a good book, a racehorse with four legs, a punnet of stawberries and to round it all off an earth-shattering, knee-trembling shag with a total stranger. Oops, slipped back into character right at the end there. Thought I was doing OK up till then.

Karl, you made me laugh. And so has IFB with her response. Priceless! Thanks, Karl and IFB. :-)

first time i tried to unbuckle a young lady's bra i got a reproaching look. better luck next time, i thought :O)

I never had much trouble with bras - with three sisters I was always trying on their clothes for a laugh... Karl that was funny though!

I used to fumble around in bras Now I stumble around in bars Life is dyslexia writ large. Adelstop Prort anyone?

All this honesty, self-analysis and soul-bearing by you lot is giving me a complex. I don't remember losing my virginity (hang on what's that in my back pocket?), but I wouldn't have been pissed as booze precludes any kind of activity in the nether regions. I can only conclude it was so unmemorable I was happy to forget it. I'm obviously not your average guy because I never had more than 2 one-night stands and they were both very disappointing ( I remember one of them dropping her chips and swearing at me). I subsequently decided that I was going for the emotion and love bit, the guilt and angst I didn't experience thankfully. I'd hate anyone to doubt my masculinity but most of my best friends are in fact women, maybe because I'm not much of a drinker and only watch international football. In short I suppose I'm a bit of a bore really, anyway I get on great with women, they don't feel threatened by me, there's no competitive angle and we can discuss anything openly. It's only when I learn to love 'em I have trouble. I have to admit I don't really care for 'fat-arsed Swede' either and for the benefit of IFB I would like to point out I haven't discussed my intimate exploits and wouldn't (well maybe if the price was right) and I should think most guys have seen a few 'tits and doughnuts' that gave them a laugh as well! As with John I have nothing to hide and am happy to give my details to anyone who wants them! Unlike him I'll forego the beers, strawberries, racehorse and the strange shag and settle for a cuddle and the woman I love whispering in my ear that she loves me more than life itself. Perhaps I'm just insecure!

Um...are you SURE you're for real, Missus? John, if more blokes told their mates how it *really* was with sweet Lucy (and especially to Lucy herself), there'd probably be a lot less broken relationships around... And WHY isn't it ok? *Under the impression that 'different gender' and 'different species' is one and the same thing...*

So we've got from the first kiss to the first bra without too much trouble. We all know where this threads going don't we? For myself I'm ashamed to admit that mine (bra-undoing rite-of-passage) was a kind of dodgy communal event with two of mates (Ted Richards and Dave Guest) and a pretty sporting young thing called Gwen Reynolds. Those were the days my friend - have to include a song lyric just in case Liana reads this. The v. amusing 'buying eighteen bras' story reminds me when another mate, Phil Bishop, was 'on a promise.' Being a good boy scout he knew he had to be prepared so off he went to the local Boots. He'd recently heard of a new form of contraception and being the type of bloke who liked to operate at the cutting edge of technology thought he'd give it a try. It was called C-Film. So Phil walks into Boots, attempting nonchalance and failing miserably and after much courage-summoning says in an unnecessarily loud voice, Packet of C-Film, please miss. To which the reply 'Certainly, sir what type of camera have you got. By the way, has anyone ever heard of C-Film or was this just another stupid Phil Bishop story?

I read everything. Never heard of C-film...was there a song about it?

Just a quickie (gutter mind!) because I am dunking my monster (gutter mind again!) - that is, putting my daughter in the bath. It is great to see men open their hearts like this and I do feel greatly honoured to witness it. A small part of me envies the capacity to swig brown ale at times and enjoy it almost as much as a life-enhancing sip of sweet champagne. Sadly though, I can only enjoy the champagne that I know and Missi has proved that he too is in that camp (not camp though, heaven forbid). We are all individuals (please stop thinking of The Life Of Brian). This thread just reveals how complex and fascinating you all are. You are right Andrea men need to open up more. However, when they do too far, it does feel Hornbyesque and uncomfortable. So what's the solution?

Well, I can think of quite a few, none of which would go down (!) particularly well with the male contingent... Just jesting, guys. I think...

agreed wolfie ... it is good to see the blokes opening up about things ... i am sad to hear john confirming that the pub conversations run along expected lines ... must be HORRIBLE being a bloke ... my bro is a big macho fella and when i went to dublin with him in march for a few days we really got down to the nitty gritty of emotional conversation ... it HAS changed things between us and we communicate much better now ... but he has few male friends he can actually talk to ... and i know quite a lot of men who are in the same boat ... it is a terrible shame because those kind of conversations (honest ones about FEELINGS) are the very ones that allow us to find out about ourselves and others ...

heard of c-film but never believed it ... someone drew me a diagram in english ... looking back it wasn't a bad diagram but i still don't believe it ...

I've never heard of C-film, either. Is is something starring Ronald Reagan?

Why are you so unsure Andrea? I don't cheat and I don't lie! Why? I have to lay my head on the pillow every night and in the few moments just before I slip into the twilight zone I am alone, I couldn't cope with the loneliness AND the knowledge that I'd deceived all my fellow humans. I'd be the only person who knew who I was and I find that thought terrifying. Don't be sad about your champagne Wolfie, it's what will keep you warm on the long dark days at journeys end. The pints of bitter may turn out to be just that! One of my favourite songs is Walter Huston singing 'September Song', there's no brown ale there but how sweet that wine must be!

I think this is a fairly truthful example. Woman ends long-standing relationship and generally her friends rally round, talk about what went wrong, how the next time round it'll be better, mention friends that might be suitable. Men - "She's left me. " "Hey, so you're back on the market ! Nice one. " This is the point of football, it allows men to be emotional and talk quite intensely with other men without looking effeminate. (And I know Missi, not all men like football.) I have had male friends that I could discuss the angst of the chase with, that side of things blokes seem to get, but actually accepting that when you are in a relationship that you can be happy (rather than pretending to be trapped and hating not being able to be a BLOKE anymore) - that doesn't seem to be an option. But it does get tiring when men go on about their hard lot in life. We don't have to have babies, we command the remote control, we are much easier pleased (bacon sarnie, new book and Radio 5 and I can deem that a top weekend) and with men, when you say "I don't wanna talk about it" that really is the end of it.

Well you do surprise me Andrew, you're showing signs of being a 'bloke', it must be what football does to men long term. Having said that perhaps your viewpoint is more realistic than mine! Woman ends long standing relationship and her friends say 'What took you so long?' His friends say 'How could she treat you so bad? It's her loss, be more careful next time.' He spends the next year trying to understand what went wrong and why she lied to him. And I can see that you're easily pleased, that's because they want you be. But the truely wise man knows it's really a womans world, they have all the toys and men have all the needs. You can stamp your feet all you like but when your woman says NO, you're in big trouble!

Come on, Liana. If there was a song about it, you'd know for certain. After all, it's only words and words are all I have. I think I'll let you finish that particular lyric. I'm sure you know it. Draw me a diagram IFB, my imagination does not run to alternative forms of contraception. Why in English? Shouldn't they have been drawing this in Biology? Bet all this confused the adjudicators when they submitted their GCE papers. A bit like when my mate got a philosophy question that simple asked 'Is this a question' to which he replied 'Yes, but only if this is an answer' then walked out of the exam room two hours before everybody else. He passed of course and is now Professor of Philosophy at Kings College Cambridge. All this says much about how useful philosophy is in the real World. But it is fun in an abstract kind of way. A bit like imagining what it would be like to date Helena Bonham-Carter. Next time you want someone to draw you a diagram you won't believe try asking Salvador Dali - or is he dead? I suppose trying to load your Minolta Vectis 300 (high-tech camera to you) with C-film is slightly preferable to trying to 'stop a baby' with Kodak 125 double exposure Gold Label but probably no less messy. Probably best if you try not to think about this too much.

the diagram is forever linked in my mind to Mr. Belcher reading aloud a W. Somerset Maugham story ...

I have to say, John, judging by your tales, you do seem to have some very odd mates... And yes, Dali is no more, either.

Just posted mine when you posted yours, Andrea. Don't know about you lot but I'm meant to be working. Still, this is much more fun so I think i'll streal back just a little bit more of my own life. If the e-mail police are reading this I might as well head for the job centre right now. Don't wish to be cruel about Ronnie Reagan viz-a-viz contraception but it would probably have been for the best if his parents had practiced it before the event. Is it an urban myth or did he real star in a C-film alongside a chimp called Bonzo or Bongo or something? If so, I trust the chimp got star billing. Sorry for all the cheap shots but the mention of Reagan is guartanteed to bring out the worst. Thatcher has much the same effect only more so.

Sorry about the "fat-arsed Swede" bit, guys. I'm really not a racist. I meant to write "fat-arsed European."

Well, they were...er...bosom buddies, after all. Oh, how one is judged by ones friends (and what you have on your bookshelf)! Bonzo/Bongo rings a bell, which is more than poor ol' Ronnie ever did... Back to your desk, John!

For a Laugh mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I have a diff' approach front lift and pop pop out out, I know I said pop out twice. I still use this method today. (-)(-)

marvellous seduction technique muzz ... bet you are a wow with the ladies!

Sliding the strap down over the shoulder - women's shoulders being a very underrated part of the body - it also prevents you falling into the bloke trap of seduction being like fast-forwarding through the adverts and purely focussing on the 'best bits'. Usually women appreciate you not diving straight into 'Tuning in Radio Luxembourg'

I've always thought I was quite in touch with my feminine side, but I meet a lot of pyschologists through work and I did a paper exercise about attitudes to certain things and it turns out I am about 95% utterly stereotypical man. Quite frightening. And I was trying to fake good, by answering as 'sensitively' as I could. Do you think Missi that in this 'woman's world' that women are in general happier than men ? I think women are far more demanding on themselves and men are probably, in general rather than specific cases, more content.

too right andrew!! some have the Fisher Price Activity Centre Approach ... (thus called after an advert for said activity centre which had a baby prodding poking twizzling and pressing things and an enthusiastic voice over saying "oooooh what happens if i prod this?")

I don't think it's a women's world, the illusion of sexual equality is just that, an illusion. In practical terms like pay and in the more insidious way. For instance every now an again, as in the a-level or GCSE results there will be a panic, from whom I imagine?, about girls doing better than boys. It was never the other way around, and it's only been in the last century and a half that women have been allowed to be co-educated. In terms of sensetivity I have had more open and honest conversations with women than men, and up and till the last ten years had many more female friends than men. However, I believe men and women do have different roles to play in society due to their intrinsic physical and emotional differences and if there was real equality then these roles could be more easily defined without the necessary distrust from those who think any `role`determining is just stereo-typing thus being sexist. A man is a real man when he can be confident in who he is, inside and out, not hiding behind a macho facade. I used to be suspicious of holding this view because I am so devoid of `machoness`, apart from a wannabe-male ego that potentially can rear it's head, now I have more confidence in my opinion of the `facade`. Women are much happier to come out of a disguise and be themselve, I find, usually happier in wanting to `open up`.

Sigh...I wish I could remember... And I don't mean the Fisher Price thingy.

Excuse me Mississippi but I'd just like to point out that 'a shag with a stranger' (what I said) is not the same as 'a strange shag' (what you said). Still I'm prepared to try anything once. Except line-dancing that is. Well you have to draw the line somewhere, don't you. And I've just about grasped the difficult concept that you don't have to be a beer-swilling, womanising, football-worshipping moron to be a 'real man', whatever the hell that might be. Though it does help of course. As for the truly wise man and what he knows. Well, he knows nothing for certain. The only thing that marks out the wise man from the rest of us is that the wise man understands that he knows nothing. Don't thank me for this, thank Socrates who, rumour has it, was one of the wise-guys himself. As for me, I'm so goddamn wise I know absolutely everything. Which is to say nothing. Now I'm all confused. As usual this is your fault mississippi. Fish, it's by no means horrible being a bloke. For one thing we can eat pickled onions without needing someone else to open the jar. And I can state quite categorically that not even one of my mates has ever asked me 'Does my bum look big in this?' If they did they'd np pretty soon their ear would look big on the end of my fist. Gratuitous violence has it's place you know - think 'Fight Club.' Mind you I am currently involved in a long search for 'my feminine side' which the psychologists keep telling me I've hidden away somewhere far beyond the id, ego and super-ego. Believe me when I find it I'm gonna stop in all day and play with it. Talking about what it means to be man, has anyone heard the story of the Duke of Wellington and one of his General's Lord Somebody of Somewhere? Sorry, General, clean forgot yer name mate. Well anyway Duke and General are next to one another plotting next unnecessarily aggressive, masculine-type, testosterone-fuelled cavalry charge on Napoleon and his hapless crew when mighty French cannon is carelessly discharged in general (sorry) direction of General. General feels slight tingling sensation in lower leg. Duke glances down in general (sorry) direction of General's leg and casually comments 'By Gad, Sir, I do believe your leg is shot clean away.' General glances down and replies 'By Gad, Dukey mate, I do believe your right.' And without further ado gallops off into the distance to look for remains of aforementioned leg to later display in his trophy room above a brass plaque which says 'Leg I Lost at Waterloo'. Brilliant. But imagine a similar scenario today. Two blokes strolling down The King's Road Chelsea in their hand-painted £2000 Armani strides, diamond stud ear-rings, chinese-character tattoos and associated paraphenalia. Porsche Boxster roars by doing 95 mph in first gear - driven by Italian footballer on way to Quaglino's for a ciabatto and cheddar sandwich (£200), obviously. First Chelsea bloke 'Ouch, that really, really hurt my eardrum. I've come over all faint.' Second Chelsea bloke 'Oh, look there's a speck of dust on my Armani strides. They're absolutely, absolutely ruined' Both Chelsea blokes together, in high-pitched voices 'I've got stress. I've got stress. I'll sue. I'll sue' And they both burst into tears like a couple of - and I'm v. sorry but I can think of no better way to phrase this - big girl's blouses. Excuse me God, but why was I borne 186 years too late. Is this just another one of your little tricks, mate? Sorry for all the crass stereotyping. Just exaggerating to illustrate the general (sorry) point.

Dear John L, loved the story about the Generals. After reading your post and re-reading mine, I just can't help pontificating can I? I'm like some self-appointed teacher type throwing out `wisdom`. Yeah Right! Anyway I confess to being a tart with a heart, which is MYB speak for loving sport, football, boxing especially, mostly from the comfort of an armchair, can `bloke it` with the best of them, putting the grunts in all the right places, as well as being new man with senitivity, whats the real me? Haven't got a clue, probably both. I seem to fit easily in both camps, chameleon like. John, Wolves. I went to a FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough years ago, being a Spurs supporter. We drew 1-1 with your Wolves, then beat you 3-0 or was it 3-1 in a replay. I only mention this, not to rub it in, but to say that I went all the way to bleeding Sheffied to see Clive Thomas, a supposedly top referee, award you the most outrageous penalty decision! We were winning and should have finished it first time. Blimey, how blokey can I get, it still rankles!

It's been entertaining reading this string. You all are too funny! Thanks for the smiles. ;o)

why is it that women never boast they are in touch with their masuculine side?

(see i can't even SPELL it)

Maybe they should fish.

When I was much younger, I used to tune into Radio Luxembourg a lot. Now, for the first time, I realise why my mother was always telling me what a bad habit it was.. mind you, I'll never forget how to spell Keynsham. (Go on then, folks - a coconut to the first smart Alec who knows what I'm talking about, thereby giving their age away!) Talking about C film - and no, I've never actually come across it (boom, boom) - reminds me of the "medical" lecture that my university doc delivered shortly after I arrived in my brand-new hall of residence. It was so unexpectedly hilarious that I've shamelessly pirated from it ever since. This was 1966, and he clearly expected very few of us to know what to look for, where to find it, or what to do with it when we had somehow located it. He wasn't that far out in his assumptions, either. His principal point was "take care" and use the proper equipment: pluck up the courage and seek out the backstreet shops that sold "medical goods". God, how times have changed! No bog machines then, or even displays in Boots. We were specifically warned against trusting Sellotape. Yes, that's right - and I do know Jasper Carrot's routine about it being called Durex in Australia - that's just an odd coincidence. Apparently, its use wasn't unknown, and this among the so-called intellectual elite! How you ever got the stuff off again, I daren't think. Nor was the female reaction recorded. The "Swinging" Sixties? Not if you tried Sellotape, mate!

What I do believe Andrew, is that in recent years women have begun to assert themselves, and especially the liberated younger generations. They know what they want and they know how to get it. In that sense I'm sure they are happier than our lot. The balance of power has been changing for years. Perhaps a lot of guys 'fake' content to mask their insecurities about losing control in so many fields. I have to admit John I laughed like hell as I typed the 'strange shag' line, I knew you'd bite and I always find your answers amusing. As for Socky and all his mates, they should get proper jobs like the rest of us, I hate know-all bastards anyway. By the way ivory not all men talk about their femine side, I'm still not really sure what it is. Re: masculine side, what woman is going to boast about shaving her legs or waxing her moustache?

I don't know - I've got a mate who boasts that she's 'like a bloke' but that's when she's referring to her ability to neck many pints, have sex with total strangers without any qualms and let noxious gasses escape from her body in public without embarrassment. She's actually a really lovely girl despite all that!

I wish that William Hill had put some juicy odds on the person on this site who would be first to pervert the innocent 'First Kiss' thread to something more carnal. Karl would have been such an obvious choice...rampant chap that he is...... I am deeply shocked by such talk, being a convent-educated girl and quite prim. I am still waiting for this event to take place (any comments about my daughter should be diverted to the 'Immaculate Conception' listings at nunsRus) and I am assured that it will be earth-shatteringly good. I wait. I wonder. I lie.

Ah, but in the 60s, us females 'ad the pill, so we could swing all we liked... And did.