Sanitised blinkers

And where do you live, exactly, Martyn? Afghanistan? Rwanda? Iraq? If YOU can understand 'the real effects of war' then please give most, if not all of us, credit for being able to see them too. I, for one, have been a pacifist all my life, a great believer in Gandhi's non-violence philosophy, and I'll remain a pacifist until I shuffle off (sooner than I'd hoped. by the look of it). I don't advocate war under any circumstances. Besides, is not Nat Geo itself a part of the cotton wool media environment, however distasteful you may find that? Nat Geo, to the best of my knowledge, is a part of the TimeWarner Corporation which is....ah yes, American. As for only being shown what 'they' feel we wish to see, I'm quite sure that most people with even a small modicum of intelligence are aware of that... Bear with us, Martyn - we ain't all as daft as you seem to think...

Hello Andrea Not wishing to be rude but i was not referring to the minority who see, but the majority who do not. I was in the forces and bought myself out when i realised that a system i was being taught to use could kill people and declared myself for what i am a pacifist - which incidentally caused me lots of problems with shipmates - coward etc etc. The only reason i joined was during the three day week - yes i am that old. I had two choices the forces or the factory floor i chose the forces because i wanted to see more of the world i know that may sound a little cliche' but it happens to be true. And i do have faith in people, i was remarking on what i see around me here in 'England' where i was born and at the present reside. Thanks.

I don't thinkits that easy to talk about what we would believe or wouldnt believe, unless we were in a totally different situation. At risk of boring those who know me, I spent a lot of time in Eastern Europe, specifically Serbia, and have studied lots about their culture etc. At first, I was horrified (and am still horrified at, but have a modicum of understanding about) how the Former Yugoslavians could lay into each other with quite such viciousness - and I think that's perhaps the whole point. It's alien to us, because our culture, our history, is absolutely a million miles away from theirs. Anyone that saw a recent documentary about the Russian Army, and how it trains its conscripts to be "efficient" would understand how it is that they do become so detached, and able to carry out such atrocities as those that are underway in Chechnya. The Cz army is not so different, with the "rule of the Grandfather" food and sleep deprivation etc etc etc. Jozef, I know you were in the Cz army a good while ago, before the Velvet Revolution, but do tell me if I'm wrong. My Cz friends tell me their experiences, and it seems pretty much the norm. Things are changing there now - good thing too. Guess what I'm bumbling and rambling on about is that to understand a mans actions, we have to understand his reasons. And to do that, we must live his life. Thats all.

Well, that's what 'they' used to advertise, wasn't it? 'Join the Navy and see the World', neglecting to mention all the other unsavoury things you'd see as well...and yes, I'm that old, too. As you see, I live in the Netherlands, where the 'warmongering propoganda' is far, far less than it is in the UK. But I have seen, with mine own eyes (I, too, watch the media, in the shape of the Beeb news) how the (British) nation is being whipped up into a frenzy. Consider this: I do not regard killing or assassination or terrorism as good in any circumstances whatsoever. I do believe that ideas ripen quickly when nourished by the blood of martyrs. But a man who dies slowly of jungle fever in service bleeds as certainly as the one on the gallows. And if the one who dies on the gallows is not innocent of another's blood, he never had ideas that deserved to ripen. (Gandhi again)

Hello again Andrea I had a fruend who did three tours in Northern Ireland as a soldier and then came home and bought himself out. When i asked him why he told me one day on patrol he stopped in a doorway in the Shankhill road in Belfast and the door opened and there stood a 5 year old child, her mother, and her grandmother, they all spat on him and called murderer, brit swine etc etc and he realised that there before him were three generations of hate that would continue long after he had left. We need to educate the young into seeing the folly of old ways - and to do this we have to lead b example. As for the other lady's comments i too saw the program on the russian soldats and was appalled by the treatment they received. Thanks for your replies - they encourage my spirit.M.

Yes, excellent point, Liana (the lady (?!) in question). One of the essential learning phases of human development, however, is the ability to be able (to a certain extent) to put oneself in another's shoes. If this isn't grasped, apparantly, by age 7 (or thereabouts), it can, thereafter, never be learned, thus giving rise to people 'without conscience' ie: the inability to imagine what it would be like to be in another persons situation giving them, in effect, carte blanche to do as they please without (personal) repercussions. And of course it isn't easy to talk about what one would or wouldn't believe/do under certain circumstances/situations, but it's good, I think, to hold certain ideals and beliefs and hope that, if necessary, you can act upon them and remain true to them... Heavy stuff, eh Liana?

Dunno Andrea, am still in a huff at the (!?) re: me being a lady. I'm sure I don't know what you mean....... :oÞ

Dunno either, just thought I'd lighten the mood a little with a few strategically placed exclamation marks...

Go on then, I forgive you :o) Mind you, talking of murderous thoughts, l had a few in Amsterdam myself a week or so ago. That bloody KLM...grrrr Anyway..back to topic. Sorry Martyn.

What was with KLM then (sorry, Martyn, will return to you in a sec no doubt)? And if you were in A'dam, why didn't you contact me? Huh? *seriously affronted*

Actually, I had roughly 20 mins to get on my flight, having arrived at Schipol on a delayed flight from Prague. I had time to catch the plane, but the seriously snotty transfer desk clerk insisted on booking me onto the next flight. She was in danger of dying a horribly bloody death. (You'd understand my actions if you were me at that point) Then I heard them calling me for my original flight. Belted down to the gate, laptop, Slivovice and 400 fags flapping and banging on my new tattoo and skidded to a halt in front of the gate. After a little - lets call it "gentle questioning" from me, when I was assured that my luggage was on the flight, I boarded. When I got back to Stansted, the lugage was..guess where? Bloody A'dam. Had I stayed for the next flight, I'd've got in touch, honest :o) BTW, when did they make schipol a non smoking airport? Thats just cruel, on top of all that. "We will be pleased to supply you with nicotine chewing gum"indeed. Grrr. Anyway. Have finished hijacking the thread now. (no pun intended)

Hi all, Do unto others as you would do unto yourself, comes to mind. AJ

Jackie - i'm pretty vile to myself at times, or so I'm told..I hope I'm a lot nicer to others. (excepting that grotty little transfer clerk of course) :o)

Hey Liana, Did you get me any cheap baccy??? NO, OK how about some cheap red plonk? AJ :>)

Is Schiphol a fag-free zone? Everywhere? Didn't know, wouldn't have though yer average Clog would put up with it. Got a flying phobia, so don't visit often. Will be visiting even less in future, if I can't have a puff. Typically Dutch though - offering the chewing gum as an alternative. Thoughtful, really. I do hope your new tattoo wasn't too seriously damaged in the fray...

Ooooh no Jackie, got some Slivovice though.... The trick is, to drink it before it evaporates in your mouth *coughhhhhhh*

Hi Liana, Slivovice, (what a great name) sounds good to me never had that before. Keep some for the bunker!!!! Nah, on second thoughts, let's get p....d now. AJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ Sorry started without you??? Hic Hic HIc

Point #1 Andrea said, "One of the essential learning phases of human development, however, is the ability to be able (to a certain extent) to put oneself in another's shoes..." I couldn't agree more with this paragraph. Our job as writers is to help people do this. If not, then what? At the risk of being lambasted for self-promotion, I wrote a piece with this specific aim in mind, relating to what I believed was largely a cultural misunderstanding between the British and Argentinians aboard a fishing vessel. A friend told me the British side of the story, and I imagined the other side. Subsequent discussion with Argentinians confirmed its accuracy. http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewStory.cgi?s=497 I agree that it's extremely difficult to change people once they have become adults. That is why the elimination of childhood poverty (helping the likes of single mothers) and a huge increase in education spending must be the priorities of a civilised society. Point #2 We are as close, here in the UK, to the seed hatred that can result in civil warfare as anywhere else. The broader conditions for this hatred to spring into general civil warfare are not present, thankfully, but I fear that we may be heading that way as the rich-poor divide grows. Surely most of us have at least overheard dreadful racist remarks and all of us know about recent racially-motivated riots? Even setting aside "the six counties" (N. Ireland), many people in the UK _are_ familiar with what it's like to be in a violent situation, not least some prisoners who suffer appalling treatment including physical assault. Release Satpal Ram!

Eric, agree with: <> Point no 2 comments, I completely disagree with. I think that we have not one iota of the cultural and religious hatred and misunderstanding that is evident elsewhere. We might think we do, but our understanding of how it feels to be oppressed, is thankfully, way, way behind theirs. And, lets hope it stays that way, because I still maintain that to actually understand it, we have to live it. I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on that.

Oooh - ABC doesn't like cut and paste does it?

...'to actually understand it, we have to live it'... Yes, Liana, you're probably right, although you could, perhaps, have qualified it a little by saying ...'to actually *fully* understand it'... Thank whatever that the fact that we haven't been so horrendously oppressed doesn't stop most of us from feeling deep compassion for those that have, I'm sure you'll agree.

...for those interested in the Satpal Ram case... Free Satpal Ram! Self-Defence Is No Offence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 16th November 1986, Satpal Ram went out to eat at a restaurant in Lozells, Birmingham, UK. He was racially abused by a group of sixwhite people at another table, one of whom broke a glass and attacked him with it. Satpal was stabbed in the face, managed to push his attacker away, but was stabbed again in the face and arms. In fear of his life and unable to escape, he defended himself with a small knife he used for work. Both were taken to hospital, where Satpal's injuries were stitched up. His attacker refused medical treatment and subsequently died. Satpal was charged with murder, convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment. Twelve years later, he remains a Category B (high-risk) prisoner, shuffled from one gaol to another more than fifty times - which serves to further isolate him and make it difficult for friends, relatives and supporters to visit. Satpal's trial fell a long way short of ensuring that justice was done. His lawyer met him once (for forty minutes) and changed his defence from one of self-defence - pretty strong when you're fighting off an unprovoked attack by a man 4 stone heavier and 3 inches taller - to one of provocation. He also failed to call Satpal as a witness in his own trial. For his part, the judge refused to provide interpreters for the Bengali-speaking waiters who were key witnesses (he couldn't speak a word of Bengali, but insisted he'd do the interpreting), and as a result Satpal was convicted by an all-white jury largely on the statements of the friends of his attacker. In 1995, by which time he'd spent nine years in prison, Satpal's case came up for appeal. He lost. Once again, the judges wouldn't let Satpal give evidence, and upheld the conviction on the basis of evidence given at the original trial by the very people who'd attacked him. Their judgement ignored the misinterpretation of crucial witness accounts (there were no Bengali interpreters, remember) and the fact that Satpal was the victim of a racist attack. "I've now been in prison for over eleven years, wrongfully convicted of a crime I am not guilty of. I can only express a sense of disbelief at the unfairness of the criminal justice system." Satpal Ram

Yes, Andrea, you're right, I should've said "fully"

What a gracious lady (see, no ! mark) you are, Liana, to be sure...