Value of Lulu and/or MishMash Publishing
Wed, 2014-02-05 13:32
#1
Value of Lulu and/or MishMash Publishing
Hello good people -- ABCers
Has anyone been successful with these publishers, in terms of sales? My wife and I have one book -- A Boy Named Wish -- with Lulu and have little sales in four years, and I have no money to promote it. Anyone ever get published by Inkspotter in Halifax -- I can't seem to get a hold of the publisher Betty Dobson. Any comments appreciated.
I sympathise Richard. I understand it's relatively easy to self-publish now, but what's the point if nobody reads it?
Thaniks Celticman. Re my poems -- now I post almost all my poems. I put as much time into them as when I submit them, since competition for poetry, or any other writing is massive. My only scream, is poetry publishers are so slow, for the most part in getting back. I have 30 submissions waiting for a response after 30-90 days, which means they are in limbo without anyone reading them, which is what inspires us to write more. Right? Cheers.
Self-publishing is so often a vanity exercise,well maybe all writing is... how many times have you met a 'published author' and you find out that their fourteen novels are only available through Little Doldrum Press? and they are unreadable. You've got to get space in book shops, promotions and reviews. Unless you are at the centre of a major news story, develop a new fruit juice or turn up a cassette of lost Beatles songs you've got to keep plugging away. maybe a small independent press that might be local to you could be helpful
I was writing seriously for seven years before a short story was accepted by a magazine and I am still sending stuff out, an unpublished novel that I wouldn't self-publish. But that's me! writing is something that you do get better at but then you run out of lightbulbs and living!
I have novels posted for someone to read, and am so pleased when they do. Friends tell me my thousand hours per novel were wasted if I give it away. Well, at least some are able to read it before I expire. At what point does a new writer post for free reading, or publish locally then chase away all your friends as you flog your books? I enjoy writing so much, posting gives me a chance to share thoughts, and feelings with perhaps a whole new perspective on the subject.
There is a huge amount of luck involved. I don't know what it's like in the US or Canada Richard but in the UK there is an established literary network based predominantly in the capital 'the literarty" as many refer to it. If you're 'in' then it's surprising what second rate stuff you can get away with submitting to positive editors and publishers.
So true, Scratch. I write to a friend-writer and he has about 150 books, including e-books published. He said he spent around $60,000 promoting his books. Phew. The Internet has so many competing, it can be a lot of luck to succeed.
I don't know about that, Scratch, second rate stuff yes but the gilded life of big deals for those on the inside, the keys to Faber & Faber, an opportunity to swivel in T.S Eliot's old leather chair.
I live in London and have met a few of these people and they are running scared. Editors are frightened of losing their jobs, they can't afford to take risks like in the old days, a small punt say £5,000 from Secker and Warburg for a book in scots dialect called Trainspotting. I wonder if they'd risk that now. Look at the dumbing down of great lists like Picador ...They are playing safe and publishing is high risk, you don't get many rewards for the really safe stuff.
Self-publishing is easy. It's (almost) impossible to get published, but that impossibility seems better than the possibility of self publishing. The problem is if you write for nothing, you're worth nothing. Book publishing is a business and I think most published work will be (if it isn't already) will be self-published. But if you are not seen as a product you do not exist and your book will similiary cease to exist except in some hyper-reality room. God, I'm glad I found you!
It all depends what you want out of it. Commercial success? Get stuck into the fight and see what the balance looks like after you've spent your $60,000. I haven't sent one single piece off to a journal or magazine - I won't play that game - creating your own market through flogging yourself around the "scene" hoping someone recognises your name on a submission (market guaranteed). Self-publishing and posting on Web-sites is easy and accessible, though you are but one face among the crowd. But for a moment, or maybe for a day, your work is seen by someone - shared and enjoyed, and maybe even retained. But at least it's being read - isn't that the point? What good is that 1000 hour novel sitting in a drawer, rejected by commercial publishers? I self-published a small anthology a couple of years back. Out of 3 boxes delivered, I still have one. The rest are out there somewhere. As I wrote in the foreword, if it gets on one bookshelf or sits on the floor beside a toilet I'll be happy. As a bonus you have sixty soft sheets in case of emergency. I barely received a penny for any of those books, but when I'm cold and dead (or ash), maybe a few of my lines might still be read.
Parson Thru
Hi PT---I came close in the Children's novel when Annick Press said they would publish one of my books --- Son of Fred --- for their short novel series, then the co-publisher, phoned me to apologize for not doing as I was told personally from him, because they were discontinuing the series. Sob. Sob. Budge Wilson, now a published author of 35 books told me my reputation would have been made with that one book especially with the company that published Robert Munsch, one of the most successful children's writers in the world.
I love to write and share. However, if a publisher wished to publish something they find interesting, why not? In the meantime, I would rather share my work than have it sitting on the shelf, collecting dust. So, don't stop writing folks, and be not afraid to dip into the Publisher pool once in a while---I recently received $90 from an international publisher for one 18 line poem!
Hi Richard. Keep at it! I want one of my grandchildren to pass me your book to read. :-)
Parson Thru
It's not about money. That is a by-product of success. But the paradox is unless you are successful no one will read your work.
Hey, us lot here all read one another's work.
For a person to write anything they are pleased with is a measure of success.
Beyond that I truly believe it is all comparative
The most money I have made is £10 about 20 years ago in an Edinburgh writing competition on the theme 'A Tour of my Own Neighbourhood' I came 3rd in the adult section and we had our work displayed in Morningside Library where we all read our work.
I have not got round to entering competitions where you have to pay to send your work in. I am sure a lot of people enter and it seems like the proverbial 'needle in a haystack' chances. Elsie
Hello Elsie, you're right -- reading each other's work is a joy -- such variety and insight. I would like to make a lot of money; it better come soon siince my hair keeps fading away. My wife and I have such plans to do things for others (with wisdom), and anonymously as possible. I have never had the moola to enter any competition requiring a fee. In the meantime folks, write and share. By the way --- if anyone wishes to read for free our novel (Esther and I) "A Boy Named Wish" and then write a review for Amazon.com please do so. It is one of the wonderful programs ABCtales.com has. Chimo.
Richard, why would you mess around with small publishers who have no record of getting your work out there? Self-publish and then you retain control over content, price and everything else. Granted you've got to work at it - I estimate I spend an hour or two a night promoting my books in one way or another, mostly Twitter - but you're going to have to work at anything you publish. It won't sell itself.
First realise that self-publishing has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with vanity publishing. Those days are gone, thank God. As are the days of print-on-demand. Electronic publishing is free, takes about 20 minutes for the first book and approxaimately 2 minutes for any subsequent books or revsions.
However, I have serious concerns about five-day free giveaways. I won't go into all of it right now, but if you're interested you can read it here; http://awomanswisdom.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/guest-blog-free-giveaways-...
Hi Karl, I found your suggested blog very interesting. Lots to ponder. But I wonder what you think about publishing through Lulu or MishMash, then having it shown on Amazon.com? Is there much of a financial return possibility?
Many small, indie presses are very prestigious, and well worth looking into. Also, don't mix up Publish on Demand (author mills such as Publish America, who will publish anything) and Print on Demand (a printing technology used not only by many small presses, and Lulu, as well as academic presses (Oxford Uni press use them) but also by houses like Harper Collins and so on, for their backlists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print_on_demand . Have a look at Lightning Source (used by Lulu and many others). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Source
Print on Demand is perfectly respectable (unlike Publish on Demand, which is vanity, and isn't).
And on another note, even the biggest of houses expect their authors to market, these days.
(and I'm not touting for biz - UKA Press is currently closed to submissions :))
http://www.ukauthors.com
http://www.ukapress.com
Good points, Andrea. You'll remember when I published P.O.D., of course. I won't name the company because I'm already involved in one law suit as it is, but at the time they seemed so respectable. However, I've never received a single penny for any of the books that were sold, yet I now find those very same books on sale with Amazon for $100 or £60 or $150 or whatever ridiculous price whoever it is decides to knock them out for. Nobody buys them, of course, but it doesn't do my reputation any good. The weekly column I write in New York actually advertises those books because they take their links directly from Amazon. I've approached Amazon and requested they don't link them to my Author Central page, but they've replied that as I'm the author they have to remain there. There's nothing I can do about it. With an e-book that I control myself, I can retire it immediately.
Richard, I know nothing about Lulu or Mishmash, except I know Lulu at least has been around for a few years. I would have no interest in giving away control of my book, waiting nine months for a print run or sharing any of my royaties with anyone else (except Amazon, of course). However, that's my personal choice and offeres negative whatsoever to the dozens of excellent P.O.D. operations.
My advice, for what it's worth, if you decided to continue that route would be to speak to Andrea, who I am absolutely convinced operates with 100% integrity,diligence and rectitude.
I do remember Karl. Of course vanity presses/author mills/publish on demand (such as the aforementioned PA as well as AuthorHouse, Xlibris, iUniverse et al) will often use print-on-demand technology as well. Some charge (often a small fortune!) to publish your book, some (like PA) don't - but they all have one thing in common - they accept anything, regardless of quality, and there is minimal, if any, editing and zero marketing. They simply rely on the authors to purchase copies for their profit. And if they're charging you 1,000 quid to publish you (and many do), that's a helluva lot of profit before they've even sold a copy!
Thing is, you can set yourself up as a publisher with Lighning Source (part of the Ingram Group) if you think sales will warrant it or you intend to publish more than one book. You will need to buy a min of 10 ISBN's though (great if you have a few books lines up, or you can always go Dutch with a friend :)).LuLu issue you with an ISBN, but remember all ISBN's are publisher specific, so all your LuLu books will point to LuLu as the publisher, whereas if you open your own account, YOU are listed as the punlisher. Opening an account is free, setting up a title will cost you about 50 quid, and LS get you automatically on Amazon, B&N etc. (which I don't think Lulu do).
All in all, I'd say Lulu are excellent if you are not planning many titles, and want minimal work. LS is more work (and you have to get to grips with cover templates etc) but cheaper in the long run for multiple titles. Remember though, that neither do any marketing (apart from LS getting you on Amazon etc) - they are basically printers, pure and simple.
Bear in mind, too, that most small indie presses have little to no marketing budget either, and are mostly run by dedicated souls who smply love books :)
Finally, I can thoroughly recommend these guys --> http://www.indigodreams.co.uk
(and thanks for your kind words, Karl - I appreciate it)
http://www.ukauthors.com
http://www.ukapress.com
Hello Karl and Andrea, I am so pleased at bringing this topic to the attention of our ABC family. Both of you have provided massive insight with thoughtful and pertinent observations in a very challenging area. I too suggest all writers pursue your own dreams using your own skills and prowess. Create and market your own books, since at least you won't be at the mercy at publishers holding onto your submitted manuscript anywhere from six months to a year and a half, before making a final decision (in my case -- after they showed much interest in three of my books).
ps. Google Piers Anthony (a very prolific writer) and on his Home Page he has a section on Publishers. Click and you will discover he has spent years researching most publishers and his very helpful comments can help you understand some of them and if they are operating on the up and up.
I wish to echo everything Karl has said. I too published years ago with POD and even though the company is no longer trading, my old books are for sale at outrageous prices. I contacted Amazon to stop this, but as Karl explained, they would not. I have however contacted Amazon.com and uk and they have agreed to remove one of my old POD books from my author page.
As for self publishing, I have thirteen paperbacks and six e-books published with Lulu. I am presently converting all of my books into e-books. No way are Lulu vanity publishers. To publish printed books it costs me the price of one copy. E-book publishing is free. An acquaintance of mine has self published two e-books only with Amazon. Last month he sold 3,000 copies. I am presently picking his brains as to how he markets his books, as I only advertise on here and Facebook. My aim when self publishing was to showcase my work in the hope that perhaps a traditional publisher would be interested. That is why I still have another eight novels ready to publish.
Hulsey (and Karl) - this happens to many people's books. They're review copies and second-hand copies which get picked up by unscrupulous online booksellers and flogged on at outrageous prices that no-one (in their right mind) would ever pay. I once found a copy of my Blood and Wine are Red on eBay for more than 300 bucks! It's still on Amazon UK for 11 quid (RRP £9.99), despite being out-of-print. And I've just found a copy of Thusly on the US eBay, selling for almost 16 bucks (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=blood+and+wine+are+red&_osacat=0&_f...) - the RRp is a fiver. A nuisance, but there you go, There's nothing Amazon can do about it, it's not their fault. Having said that, Amazon are a nightmare to work with - I've had endless run-ins :)
And no, Lulu are not a vanity - they are, as I said, simply a company who use the POD (print-on-demand) printing technology, and very good they are too, for those who want simple self-publishing rather than the hassle of PDF conversions and complicated templates. The bottom line is, though, that you need to market aggressively if you want to generate any sales.
http://www.ukauthors.com
http://www.ukapress.com