A meaningful end

The dying should prepare for death well. To ensure they're in the surroundings they want to be in, to have the drugs available at their request, or to have the right to refuse all drugs with a view to experiencing death to da max! A bit like women getting the right to give birth in whatever way they want. Wht not in life too? We should get questionaires like they do at pre-natal. Problem with the dying - they can't stand-up and hit the streets to protest about the way they die -they're too ill. It's up to the families to ensure that wishes are fulfilled. I might be morbid but I don't want morphine or anything like that. I really want to know how it feels to be starved of breath. If it happens that way. Anything after that - whatever it is, cremation, burial, blah blah is nothing in comparison to a good death! It's something we unconsciously spend the majority of our lives preparing for. We must face it head on, break the last taboo and, as a result, enjoy more peaceful lives. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

"Can any of you think of people who've enjoyed dignified ends...?" Hunter S Thompson.

I can't think of anyone, although my dad's funeral was very well attended and I think I honoured him by getting rather drunk at the wake and making people laugh. My mum didn't believe in God, but had a dour church funeral and it felt odd to me. In fact, I wore a bright blue dress and doc martens and smiled at everyone as they came in and people actually complained about it. I got a letter in the post saying how everyone noticed I looked like I was attending a wedding. I think smiling and remembering good stuff is the best way. But we are crap, in general, at funerals in this country. Nobody knows what to say or do. Laughing is key to a funeral I think. Telling stories about the dead person, not just the flattering ones, but all the crap, weird, silly ones too. And not wearing black. Why wear black? It's not a sign of anything and it drags all the energy away. When I have a funeral I will demand nobody wears black. Funnily enough lots of people plant trees and things, don't they, when people die? I couldn't think of any ritual at the time that would help, although as it's coming up to ten years I think I'm going to do something over the next year that makes it feel more real to me. Actually, I do remember a funeral I went to when I was 15. It was for the tuba player in a brass band I played with. He was in his 40s and left behind a wife and an 8 year old son and 12 year old daughter. It was a lovely funeral, mostly, if I remember, because the wife stood up and said stuff about him - good and bad - and allowed herself to cry, and allowed the kids to cry, and also to lark about. I seem to remember spending a good portion of the wake pretending to be a chicken with the son, and nobody minded or said we were being disrespectful. They just laughed. As did the son. Ah, thanks Mark, I'd forgotten that.

'And not wearing black. Why wear black? It's not a sign of anything and it drags all the energy away. When I have a funeral I will demand nobody wears black.' I agree wholeheartedly. I love your story of the blue dress and Doc Martens. *That's* how people should dress at funerals. I also agree we don't know how to have good funerals in this culture. When I lived in Thailand, a family who lived in the house below my guesthouse held a funeral for a family member. They had all sorts of family and friends and food, and hired musicians who played music until well into the early hours; the music was traditional, just a couple of 'native' string instruments (a kind of a fiddle) and a tambourine, and was so beautiful and sad and haunting. I recorded some of it on my mini-tape recorder and listened to the tape until it broke..

My grandmother died this summer at the age of 99. Up until two weeks before her death, she lived at home. She was great character who spent her latter days on a fairly intravenous habit of sherry. Her service was sad, highlighted by my youngest dropping a bouncy ball that came to rest under her very small coffin. My father had to go under it to get the ball. After, we had a party, toasted with sherry, and I don’t remember anyone wearing black. She was a great lady – she and my grandfather drove across India in a Mini before selling up and moving to Sark. They lived there until they got too old for island life. My grandfather had his ashes scattered there, and my grandmother will do as well. We’re all going to get together for what would have been her hundredth, and have a party.

I am totally with Fergal on this. For my Dad's funeral I arranged for him to arrive at the cemetery in a white van. I'd strongly recommend it. It took all the angst out of the event. I also insisted that no one, not even the coffin bearers, wear black. I did this because my father was a devout Christian and considered death something to celebrate, rather than be sad about. A black hearse and everyone dressed in black would have sent entirely the wrong message.

A greatly-loved old lady from our church died and we went to the memorial service in church then followed the hearse to a graveside service in Southern Cemetery in Manchester. Unfortunately it's a very large cemetery and we followed the wrong hearse, I only realised when we ended up in a queue of about 15 cars all filled with West Indians- Alice was very multi-cultural but not to that extent, and we ended up abandoning the car and running round the cemetery trying to find the right service. She would have found that hilarious. As would Arthur Wainwright who wrote the walking guides to the Lake District - his ashes were scattered on a hilltop in a strong wind such that some of them blew back into the sandwiches of the mourners, but Northern folk don't waste good food just because there's burnt bits of dead people on your butty!

Why does there have to be any meaning to death, or life either for that matter? The whole concept smacks of arrogance which is unique to humans. There IS no meaning to life or death, it's just an accident or by-product of creation. We're here, for no apparent reason, then we're not, for no apparent reason, why is it so hard for people to accept that?

Extremely valid observation, Mississippi. I can't help feeling you were put on this planet to draw our attention to that point.

Valid, but... People don't accept it, because they don't believe it. It's not stubbornness, as Missi seems to be implying, it's just that, for whatever reason, a large proportion of the population of the Earth believe that life and death do have a meaning... Not necessarily a "religious" meaning, I might add. A philosophical meaning... a personal/emotional meaning... or even a non-religious spiritual meaning... We're not arrogant because we have faith in something beyond our immediate physical perceptions. ~PEPS~ You can’t finish a man till he’s finished his Texan Bar

A childhood friend died young (at 26) after packing quite some experience into that short time, including two kids by different mothers. His outdoor, autumnal funeral (on a wooded hill in the wind) was attended by people from the age of 1 to about 81, who were dressed in all different colours (some punks, some homeless people with no choice, some publishers and teachers and so on). My dad, who had been there at my friend's birth, helped dig his grave, with my brother and a few other muscular friends. When the cardboard box holding my friend's body was lowered (again, by his strong-armed friends) into the earth, we all threw some earth, trinkets or a card with some words in it, in as well. As various friends dug the mud from a mound and filled the grave, my friend's parents took turns speaking about him and his life. He had been a self-effacing person who would have found his funeral deeply embarrassing, but I'm sure he'd have secretly enjoyed it. His son, who was about five years old at the funeral, stood by the grave once it had been filled and put his hand up to speak. He said "My dad used to take me swimming. I liked it." The pain was almost unbearable, and so was the beauty of this - it looked like my friend's son was rising from the grave, as he stood amid the flowers that had been placed on top of it. In a lull following the long speeches, when nobody moved (I for one could not bear to leave my friend lying there alone in the cold), another friend, unannounced, took out a small tin whistle and began to play some haunting Celtic music. Birds soared in the sky to the tune. The funeral didn't manage to tie up the many loose ends my friend had left, but the ritual 'goodbye' was an important way to help me and others believe that a young, handsome and good friend/relative of ours was dead. His death itself was not so pleasant, but at least the marking of it was beautiful. (to Missi-) The meaning was for us - the survivors of his death - a way of honouring him and honouring life itself. It was not a religious funeral in any way. Between my friend's death and his funeral I'd barely cried, and had just smoked endlessly, and had had various minor accidents (probably in a semi-conscious effort to make myself feel/cry amid the awful numbness). The funeral encouraged/allowed my grief to begin.

ps. homeless people with not much choice about what to wear, I meant...

I was NOT implying stubborness, I wasn't IMPLYING anything. I was saying that many people have to attach some deep and comforting meaning to their own lives (obviously whilst still here), in an attempt to deal with things they don't understand. They often feel that approaching death, (and I'm not necessarily talking about old people, many youngsters, especially boys, are scared shitless when first contemplating death as a part of their lives. My own youngest son went through an awful period in his life at the age of 9 when realising that life ends in death. He had nightmares and was suicidal for several months before he came out of it.) Many people turn to religion as some kind of comforter. Being part of a religious group can impart some security and relieves the fear of loneliness, especially in the old and infirm. Many others, who may have been indoctrinated with religious beliefs in their childhood and who have since 'fallen by the wayside', try to redeem themselves in their later years, (they're really covering their arses just in case there IS some truth in the doctrine of youth). All this adds up to not being able to see life for what it is, a 'lucky' accident of nature, or maybe not so lucky for some. If religion is so important to life how come it appears that humans are the only life form on earth that practise it in any organised way? The answer is that humans have never really managed to get to grips with mortality, so they devised religion as a way of resolving their fears. Unfortunately most religions have been usurped by cunning and power-crazy individuals and used as a means of controlling the masses to their own advantage. The best thing to do is not even think about the 'meaning of life' of the 'hereafter', because it will drive the thinker mad. Galfreda, I don't think there's anything wrong with attaching meaning (in an earthly sense) , to a departed person. Everyone of a reasonable age has experienced the loss of someone they either knew well or loved, and we all assess their effect on those still living, that's an entirely different set of circumstances to those I was referring to above. I have lost both parents, and many friends in my life, some through 'natural' causes and several through suicide, and I was affected deeply by many of them (though strangely enough I've never shed a tear for my father who died 15yrs ago. Not because I didn't care. I don't know why I haven't). I've now attended so many funerals I could conduct one in my sleep. They all saddened me, but I've also heard a few people spoken about in orations that were nothing short of crap. One in particular, (an ex-lover), was described by her daughters boyfriend in his address as 'the most loving, caring, loyal, honest and devoted wife on earth. I looked around the congregation and counted at least 5 guys she'd screwed behind her husband's back in the previous 2 years. So it seems that many people say things at funerals to make themselves feel good, and the truth is rarely spoken in it's entirety.

Some years ago I watched a televised bit of Graham Chapman's funeral service, where John Cleese was speaking about him. He said something like, 'Oh, Graham was sweet, kind, funny, yada yada,' then he paused and said, 'Well, good riddance, I say! Difficult bastard...etc.', which made people in the service crack up; I think Cleese was being honest about the difficulties in their working relationship during the Python days, but he did it in a way that was humorous. But you're right, Missi, that many services seem to be mourners spouting platitudes about people who were anything but wonderful.

I suspect that non-human life-forms don’t practise religion, because religion is a concept which is a little too abstract for a sheep or an iguana or a duck-billed platypus or whatever to get their heads around. I think whether or not they have “got to grips” with mortality has little to do with it… although I may be wrong! The funerals described by Galfreda or that of Graham Chapman seem to have honesty at their core. I think this is really important. I also saw what AG is talking about, and I think what Cleese did was brilliant! He “loved” him (in his own way), but he accepted that all relationships have flaws. ~PEPS~ You can’t finish a man till he’s finished his Texan Bar

I didn't say non-human life forms HAD got to grips with death you twat. You get very little right....ever.

Yes, but you seemed to imply it, Missi! Be careful with you implications, friend... ~PEPS~ You can’t finish a man till he’s finished his Texan Bar

Just about anything that lives has a natural instinct to survive. Humans seem to have managed a way to conjur up religion as a means of coping with death (and life). I'm unaware of any study of whales or apes or any other intelligent species on this planet that have established anything approaching organized religion, but then again, who really knows what they think? Instead, they establish social rules which all members of the group are subjected too. To me, this suggests that the omnipotence of thought in humans is the reality. We created religion in our minds as a set of social rules. This creation is a more complex set of rules, but still only a set of rules or expectations enforced upon the group, facilitated by thousands of years of practice and refining. We believe it, thus it is so. Anything that challenges those beliefs is a challenge to life itself, or so we think. You don't know what you don't know. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

I love you, Mark.

Me too.

Talked about this quite a bit over the weekend. I think we are pretty shit about death in Britain. If you see the body -glimpse it - at the funeral then you're prevailing memory of the person is this ghoulish corpse. I think we should either spend a lot of time with the body - get over our squeamishness about it - like the Indians do, either that or not see the body at all. My Grampa had one of the best farewells. He died last year, a few weeks after his 100th birthday party where all the people from his long and varied life came to celebrate with him. He had a fantastic day - boozing and being venerated. He was in a care home for his last couple of years. Not surprisingly, being a near-centerian, he was in a wheelchair by this time and didn't quite know who everyone was. But my abiding memory of his final days was as we all sang him happy birthday he raised his gnarled bony fist in to the air and shook it triumphantly. For me, that was so cool. Joe

For those who do not believe in God, there is still another possibility that they shouldn't overlook. If there really is no God (which by the way I don't accept), then when you die you remain dead for an infinite amount of time. In an infinite amount of time every possible permutation of events is likely to occur. One possible permutation is that someone in the future, helped by advanced technology, acquires Godlike powers. This person then trawls back through history to find suitable people to reawaken from the dead to spend the rest of time with him or her. You've got to admit it's a serious possibility. The question is, what criteria would this future super being use to decide whether someone should stay dead or be resurrected? Think about it. Even as you read my post, this super being could be viewing the tapes of your life to decide whether you are a suitable eternal companion? Makes you wonder doesn't it.

Another possibility is that there is no such thing as time when one dies, since you leave the physical constraints of the material world. As a consequence, thousands of dead beggars slobber profusely on you for an eternity until your long dead grandmother rescues you from the abyss and gives you a slice of apple pie. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Given infinity quantum field theory predicts that we will live again. When I think about death I think about what I was doing 10 years before I was born. Obviously nothing! Death, in my opinion, is the same as. If you approach religion from a rational, literal viewpoint you're doomed to failure and you obviously haven't grasped the difference between the two schools. The Axial period moulded the great religions we see today - one of them, in my opinion, was logos (rational, 'scientific' thought). If you're adamant in applying logos to religion then you've missed something. One of which is the insistence that rationalism should suffocate any school of thought if it were to 'pass the west test' so to speak. Bollards. Both have given equal amounts of success and terrible failure to all advanced cultures. Even if you don't believe in God or heaven and you cannot afford them any time, at least think about the ideological power of religious thought. Very powerful indeed. I personally believe that God is symbolic of man's will. Doesn't mean I'm not in awe at how religious thought has shaped mankind (for the better when all is taken into consideration - god or no god.) Folk customs though to organised religion have a survival advantage..they must have or they wouldn't be part of our advanced lives anymore. Maybe from the initial bonding of small tribes centred around any one cult or belief system, we've seen ourselves adapt into co-operative, civilised and innovative people. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

OK, well I didn't think for a moment that I'd sway anyone. Everyone will think what they want and believe what they want, and I believe all religion is intrinsically evil and serves no purpose for humanity. You can call it what you want but no other life form needs it and it's not necessary for humans either.

I love your idea, Bruce! I think it’s eminently possible and definitely worthy of a story (if it hasn’t already been written, which, along with every other story ever conceived, it probably has). Re my comment about non-human beings and religion, I promise I didn’t just say what I did to be flippant and wind up Mississippi (although this is a fun side effect). It is, of course, a valid argument that humans used their complex minds to “invent” religion, but it is equally valid to say that it takes the complex abstract reasoning capability of the human brain to understand such concepts as God, the Soul, the Afterlife, etc… whether or not these concepts are “real.” Non-human animals don’t “do” religion, because they (allegedly) don’t have the mental capacity to get it, not because they don’t need it. A crucial difference. ~PEPS~ You can’t finish a man till he’s finished his Texan Bar

* ....Non-human animals don’t “do” religion, because they (allegedly) don’t have the mental capacity to get it, not because they don’t need it.... * Absolute garbage. They survive without it, therefore they don't 'need' it. Do you actually have ANY reasoning powers at all, haemorrhoid? As for 'winding me up', you flatter yourself. You don't possess the ability to have any effect upon me apart from triggering the kind of annoyance that naughty kids do.

You mis-read my logical flow, Missi... I shall re-present my argument thus... Proposition A: non-human animals don't "do" religion. Proposition B: non-human animals don't "get" religion. Proposition C: non-human animals don't "need" religion. My argument is that B implies A. In this context, C is irrelevant. Hence presenting evidence for the dual hypothesis that my previous statement is not "absolute garbage" and that I do in fact have at least some reasoning powers. ~PEPS~ You can’t finish a man till he’s finished his Texan Bar

Why I bother lowering myself to exchanges with the feeble-minded I don't know. Your 'logic' is crap as is your hypothesis. Please finish your Texan Bar.

>>> Your 'logic' is crap as is your hypothesis ... I bow to your far superior powers of deductive reasoning. (I will never... never... finish my Texan Bar!!!) ~PEPS~ You can’t finish a man till he’s finished his Texan Bar

And so you should.

Animals (especially monkeys) perform rituals around dead group members, including crying, dancing and quiet mourning, before carrying the carcass off to a remote place for consumption by some other animal. Religion stems from death ritual. What began as a ritual to remove bodies to ensure that predators would not be attracted to the communes became oral folk ritual and the organised religion (with civilised society). What is religion? Ah! Some people take it all too literally. I wish he'd get back to his Daily Express crossword. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Animals aspire to "invent" religion or animals aspire to "discover" religion... how can we know the difference? ~PEPS~ You can’t finish a man till he’s finished his Texan Bar