murdered women

I agree. It's media laziness - bringing a certain 'colour' to the story and also appealing to prejudice: "Well, they ARE only prostitutes, after all" - that kind of thing. As if they have a lower value as human beings.

This is political correctness gone awry. If the five people who were murdered were prostitutes, what else can we call them? If the media ignored this or pretended they were something else they would be misrepresenting the facts. The fact they were prostitutes is actually of great relevance to the story.

I agree with both sides of the argument. The victims WERE prostitutes: fact. It is highly relevant to the story that they were prostitutes, as they were doubly vulnerable to this kind of violence. However, I agree that *certain* papers enjoy putting a moralistic/salacious twist to it: well, they were all druggies, weren't they, as well as prozzies, so they got what was coming to them? But other papers have taken special care to note that many women turn to prostitution because of spiralling drug habits: the drug habit is the real tragedy, the prostitution a sad side show to a ruinous existence. What I am hoping is that the public and the Government can start having some serious dialogues about making prostitution SAFE (relatively) and make brothels LEGAL, so the women who are on this path have at least some protection against violence and disease. Hopefully then the whole issue of turning to prostitution to fund a drug habit will at least have one less thing to worry about. Tackling the blight of drug addiction and its core causes requires more understanding and funding than most governments are willing to provide, sadly. Poor, poor women. Awful.

Oh, for goodness sake... when will people stop wheeling out that tired old thing of 'political correctness'. It's nothing to do with being politically correct. It's everything to do with having respect for these women. Sure, if they were college professors or policemen or pensioners, they'd be referred to as such. But the word 'prostitute', whatever you prefer to think, carries a different moral weight in the minds of certain people. The same as saying 'five drug addicts' or 'five bankrupts'. I've actually heard someone say 'If they'd been doing proper jobs and hadn't got involved in that kind of life, maybe they'd still be alive.' Makes me want to put my teeth-kicking boots on.

Sorry alan but respect doesn't come into it. The media's job is to report the facts. They would be doing their readers and viewers a terrible disservice if they tried to downplay the fact that all the victims were prostitutes. Call it respect, call it political correctness, it amounts to the same thing. If we only allow the media to say what is respectful, or politically correct, my God we might as well give up on democracy and freedom of speech in this country. And that really is me for the year. Have a great Christmas.

If they were of mixed 'occupations', it might be irrelevent, but five-for-five prositutes? That's GOT to be part of the story - that's what makes it a single story, and not five random murders. I do feel for their families, no more and no less.

The PC people on this planet (and website) need to get a life. Of course the fact that they were all prostitutes and as far as I'm aware, drug addicts is pertinent. The fact IS, if they were typists, nurses or hairdressers they probably WOULD still be alive. Their occupation is pertinent because it has them working in darkened streets, in seedy areas, late at night, attracting those with sexual needs that aren't being met elsewhere. Prostitutes are, and always have been, at far greater risk than almost any other profession. It has nothing to do with inferring they're 'worthless'. To suggest that they're a result of the drug trade is also misleading. Prostitution has been around ever since women realised they have something that men are prepared to pay for, ie. thousands of years if you can believe that comic book, the bible, and long before drug taking reached the epidemic proportions of modern-day society having said that, prostitutes move in the same low-life circles that drug dealers do, so it's inevitable that at least some of them are going to succumb to the lure of a feel-good pastime. We need to utilise the Singapore solution to drug dealers.

I have to say, prostitution may be an old trade but the majority of street workers are in fact addicts. Nowadaya a blind eye is turned to massage parlours, escort services and many brothels, addicted girls don't often get to work in these premises, too risky, so the seedy red light areas are where the addicted girls end up. I don't think the Singapore option would work either, sadly street addicts normally score of other street addicts, who've probably scored off them at some point. In the deluded world of hard core drug addiction you believe you're doing each other a favour. Though the repeated emphasis on them being prostitutes can make me uncomfortable I believe it's at least making the majority of the country sit up and take note of the lives some people live. Enough sympathy and something might get done. I've noticed a lot of debate about just legalising drugs, or at least heroin, to save girls like these. It wouldn't work. But one things for sure, as these laws stand at the moment they aint working and there needs to be a drastic overhaul. Let's just hope that after the killer's caught the issue won't be once again brushed under the carpet. Kids dying in prison outrages the public, a few weeks later they seem to believe they get what they deserve, except of course dying. nobody

'The media's job is to report the facts' Oh.

Can't recall the case but I remember about ten years ago a bloke in London killing gay men, he wasn't just killing men he was killing gay men, I'm sure if you scour the archives of crime you'll find rent boys somewhere murdered. Of course, Camilla, if you know of such a case to compare to I'd like to know. I also don't read the tabloids, well occasionaly, but from what I can make out, even they're sypathetic for once. What do you propose we do, ignore the fact? FFS, they need as much media attention to drive the fact home home of how theirt lives are as possible. The media gives very little attention to the plight of such people. As the media stands, only top news makes the pages, that attention rarely goes to such people. It may not be right but that's the way it is and I for one am pleased that prostitution is being thrown in the general public's face the way it is. But then maybe it's cause I give a fuck about these people 24/7 rather than when it's spread across the news. I don't care how this area of society is reffered to as long as something is done about it. Don't you think that's what matters in the long run? What do you think tyhe parents think, those that have lost a child, don't you think they'd rather expose the life that had taken their child? Or do you think, that rather than offend the reader/listenerwith their wording, they'd prefer to gloss over it. As a decent human being I know what I'd rather, and that's not to brush it under the carpet. Camilla, while your ideas seem noble enough, they do nothing for accurate reporting or bringing the problem into the public domain. The general public might not be too quick on the uptake, so maybe they need it laid out in those terms, if the overall consequences are good, then it's not a bad thing. At present, public consenses seems to be for the better. This is a real problem as BBF pointed out wit his statistics, at least this way it's drawing attention to the issue rather than pretending it's not there. Of course if people are really bothered about these sort of women there are things you can do about it, these type of women are clogging up our penal syatem and shouldn't be there, thay need help more than anything else. Therew are countless charities that can enable you to take your stance. For these particular women I'd advise http://www.smartjustice.org/index.html They're running a campaign where you can sign up for a more humane treatment of women offenders. It would also offer a dramatic insight to how, statistically, these women's lives have been up to present date. nobody

People who are looking to feel offended about something generally find it. If you're looking for evidence of a misogynist agenda, you're guaranteed to find it. This whole thing with the word 'prostitution' sounds more like a personal issue than a socio-political one. Try to relax.

Hi Camilla, Like Archergirl, I can see both sides of the argument. I take the point about how ‘prostitution’ is viewed by some sectors of society. However, I don’t see anything necessarily wrong in referring to these women in this way. We all tend to get defined by what we do. Philip Lawrence was a ‘murdered head teacher’, and so on. As BBF says, the reaction, in the press and elsewhere, has been generally sympathetic anyway. I think most people recognise these women as human beings first. As for them becoming an ‘issue’. Well, many such incidents become issues: corporate manslaughter, negligence of authorities, drugs, and so on. The families may actually take some comfort from the fact that what’s happened may lead to changes that might go some way towards preventing such a thing from happening again. Let's hope so, anyway.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6189409.stm I hope it's the right man, and not the police being pressured into a premature arrest.

nobodyI'm sure the children of the murdered women will be soo comforted by" accurate reporting "and that their Mothers deaths had become "an issue". Laughable, I'd imagine they have a lot more on their mind. Out of interest how do you think we should describe them? Do you not think those same children will find out one day. Camilla unless you actually give a fuck about these people or are you just looking for a gripe.

Isn't it a bit sexist to always refer to them as 'women' - surely they are murdered people?

Ah, that's 'wymyn'; it's sexist to include the word 'men'.

What IS out of order has nothing to do with the profession of the dead women, but the disclosure of the suspects name and address along with photographs. For chrissakes the guy is so far just a suspect, he may well be innocent, but the press and police have guaranteed the guy will be the target of every fucking vigilante in Suffolk. How long before the brain-dead start smashing his windows and burning his property? If the guy is genuinely guilty he should be locked up for the rest of his natural life, but he hasn't been charged as yet as far as I'm aware, let alone convicted. If you want REAL sexual bias you need look no further than the fact that the identity of women is kept secret in most cases (apart from instances like this where they are deceased victims), whereas the press/police can't wait to plaster a guys name and face all over the press, guilty or not.

It did seem a bit heavy handed that, especially as the bloke hasn't even been charged yet. (besides - everyone knows Bernard Mathews done it, he's been strangling birds in east anglia for years)

As an extension of Missi's argument, I started watching the news about this story this evening and had to switch off... "Here are two women whose houses back onto his garden" "Here is the village where his mother lives" "Here is a sample of the interview he gave to the BBC" ...?! So we now know where to go to burn down his house, to burn down his mother's house (can't be too hard to find out where exactly in the village she lives), and if the man is guilty, we have given him a nice little publicity platform, and if he isn't, we now know his name and his MySpace location and "there's no smoke without fire," as they say... ... Responsible reporting? Hmm... {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Can We Ever Really Know the Truth About Anything?)

Actually Camilla I was reffering to Colin Ireland rather than Nielson but I get your point. Now lets really put the cat amongst the pigeons, what about the peadophile who was shot on his doorstep in London about six years ago, shouldn't he have been described as just a man who was murdered? Dunno if he had kids, many do. Or are his children open to ridicule because of their father? nobody

You can see this all going horribly wrong. Crowd mentality is exactly that - mental. Remember the "Paedo" in Hampshire who turned out to be a Paediatrician!

Actually it was in Newport and err .. didn't actually happen http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4719364.stm at least there was never any mob.

you really *are* the urban myth blaster aincha?

there's nothing I enjoy more than ruining everyone else's fun

Agree with Dan, it must be Bernard Matthews. It can't be Mr Kipling who, as we know, always puts 6 tarts in a box. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

I think this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.htm... must be one of the most unashemedly nasty pieces of comment I've ever read. I've got a grudging admiration for the old brute. At least he doesn't pretend to care.

That article must be by Borat.

David, it seems to me that no one really cares that they were prostitutes or why, only that they were murdered. Murders always make people feel vulnerable, whereas prostitutes can be ignored at will. There seems to be a certain amount of self-concern in this attitude. Personally I think that a lot of what Littlejohn said is right, but maybe it would have been better unsaid.

Having never been a prostitute, I admit to having absolutely no idea what it's like to live this kind of life or what led these women to "choose" this path... They were human beings - they were murdered - that's all that really matters. {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Can We Ever Really Know the Truth About Anything?)

The placing of a value on their life because they're not going to discover a cancer-cure or undertake a heroic act of charity is just dumb. Neither are most folk. A supemarket cashier may not seem important in the grand scheme of things does that make their murder 'no great loss'? I think a key point that needs examining is his argument that at any time they could have used the services offered by various charities and agencies to get clean and chose not to and therefore chose to be on the street. I am torn between agreeing or disagreeing. Never mind the reasons why people become addicts, (and some people from the most loving homes become addicts - they seem to have been born that way). In the illness of addiction, the 'internal addict' convinces you that there is no alternative, that life without the drug of choice would be unbearable and addicts in active addiction are not mentally well enough to really have a 'choice'. However by taking the fashionable line that 'society' is to blame fuels the alcoholic/ addict's tendancy to blame everyone else. Blame and denial are also a big obstacle to choosing recovery. And ultimately whilst the addiction is not their fault, an adddict has to take responsibility for their recovery. Either way, it was quite clearly written by an moronic tosser who has no understanding of the nature of addiction. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Here here! {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Can We Ever Really Know the Truth About Anything?)

To some extent society IS to blame. There isn't a country outside of south east Asia that tries to tackle drug problems in any meaningful way. The whole world and his dog knows that 80% of the worlds heroin is produced in Afghanistan, and although for a while the US and UK made weak attempts at stemming the tide, they soon gave up. Drug addicts are not possible in a drug-free society. OK, that isn't going to happen any time soon, or maybe ever, but society should take some responsibility for it's casualties, and that's what they are. There's no profit in tackling the problem so it gets side-lined in favour of dreaming up lucrative ways of bleeding drivers etc. dry. Oh, and by the way small child, the phrase is 'hear hear'.

Well said Jude. Littlejohns rantings makes me almost wish addiction onto one of his nearest and dearest, almost, after all it aint their fault. I mean how far behind the times can a man be? Does he not realise even the Tories are seriously looking at ways to deal with the drug problems in this country in a constructive way. Though one wonders if the grass roots will allow anything sensible to come of it, but at least they're looking. Littlejohn's the sort of bloke you want to give a big right hander to as you pass him in the street, by the time he's shaken his head and realised what happened you'd be gone. nobody

"Oh, and by the way small child, the phrase is 'hear hear'." Thank you, Mr Pedantic, for your much needed linguistic correction. I shall just toddle off and write it in my book of "Phrases I Must Remember How to Spell"... :-) {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Can We Ever Really Know the Truth About Anything?)

'There isn't a country outside of south east Asia that tries to tackle drug problems in any meaningful way. ... Drug addicts are not possible in a drug-free society...' I assume by South East Asia we are alluding perhaps to Malaysia and its draconian policies towards drugs... sadly, there IS no such thing as a 'drug-free society', even in those countries where the death penalty is mandatory for drugs-related offences. I remember, quite clearly, looking down out of my hotel window in Penang, Malaysia, and watching a couple of geezers (one in a business suit) freebasing in the alley below. So much for the threat of death as a disincentive to use drugs. People will stop using drugs when they feel there is something more pleasurable and fulfilling to do instead.

Jude- "I think a key point that needs examining is his argument that at any time they could have used the services offered by various charities and agencies to get clean and chose not to and therefore chose to be on the street." The services of "various charities and agencies" meet barely a speck of demand- do you think people who supply free methadone to adicts, etc, are ever going to have enough? In an ideal world perhaps but you seem to be being overly simplistic. Does anybody want to be a prostitute. While I understand that the term 'prostitute' may be degrading, it is what they were- they were degrading themselves within their own life times and while that does not give us free liscence to say just anything the people of the media (no, not the tabloids) are under obligation to report acurately about them. If it were murdered, say, drug dealers, would this have even been an issue?

There was nothing wrong with your spelling, just your knowledge of the English language, which leaves something to be desired, especially in one who likes to pass himself off as educated. Don't you realise that persistently including links to your work has the opposite to the desired effect? If that's the only way you can get a reader I feel sorry for you.

Waddaphuk U on about, Missi? {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Can We Ever Really Know the Truth About Anything?)

Scrooge is alive and well at Christmastime, Peps. Figgy pudding, anyone?

To Missi... Fuck off and Happy Christmas. Much love from Pepsoid xxx {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Can We Ever Really Know the Truth About Anything?)

:-) :-) :-)

Like Missi, I think quite a bit of Littlejohn's line is objectively correct - I think he's right to have a go at both the professional grievers and the people who've used these events to make policy points which, while not necessarily wrong, have no direct connection to the matters in hand - but possibly best left unsaid. I'm not sure about this, though: "This wasn't a case of women going on the game to put bread on the table, or to look after their "babies". That's what the welfare state is for. They did it for drugs." This, too, is true but it seems to imply that by selling there's bodies to fund a drug addiction these women were somehow living an exciting, decadent lifestyle. Whoever's to blame for addiction to hard drugs - and for most people, there's a combination of factors - I've never come across an addict who's been having a fun time. "I think a key point that needs examining is his argument that at any time they could have used the services offered by various charities and agencies to get clean and chose not to and therefore chose to be on the street." I don't think this is necessarily wrong but I'm not sure where it get us. Unless we actually elevate street prostitution to the position of positive lifestyle choice, the fact that some women are making this is definitely a symptom of other problems for them, and possibly a symptom of other problems for wider society. "Does anybody want to be a prostitute." Well, there are certainly lot of people who are prostitutes by choice - the question is what their other choices are, or what they think they are. There was a lady on the radio last week who said that she'd gone into prostution because she needed work she could do in the evenings, so that she could look after her kids in the day and buy them stuff. This sounded slightly bizarre - bar work, for example, has a lower hourly rate but you'd imagine it's slightly less unpleasant and creates less difficulties for the kids at school when everyone has to talk about what their parents do for a living. It also seems a slightly ridiculous situation where people think selling their body to buy their kids the latest toys and clothes, is a better option for all concerned than just not buying their kids latest toys and clothes.

Oh dear, arseygurl getting divorced because marrying the guy was the worst thing she ever did! (we don't know the other side of the story but just maybe she's an unbearable bitch and he'll be glad to see the back of her). Alumgoonyan's wife keeps screwing other men and finally leaves (we don't know the other side of that story either, but maybe he's also an unbearable sack of crap and she can't bear to have the idiot near her) And then we have Haemorrhoid... well apart from the fact that he is about as welcome as his namesake we don't know much about him, other than that he chooses the two above as bed fellows,and he insists on telling us all where to find his scribblings with every post. Birds of a feather anyone?

Wrong thread, you cranky old toad. Have to say, didn't miss your endless bile at all while you were gone, you and your other miserable, middle-aged dickhead of a friend. Back to the subject: I imagine that there are probably worse jobs in the world than prostitution, at least, in places where prostitution is both legal and monitored. It wouldn't be my first choice as a job to feed my kids, however. Especially if some fat, unattractive, bile-spewing, middle-aged old fart required servicing. They seem to be the main customers, anyhow, because no-one else with any sense would touch 'em.

No not the wrong thread, I posted it here deliberately. Are you suggesting I may be wrong in my assessment of your domestic problems? Or maybe I'm so close to the truth you have to revert to type? I've no doubt that a percentage of the hookers 'customers' are/were unsavoury types but by all accounts the majority were average people, including lawyers and senior police officers, most likely with wives and kids at home. Perhaps they're married to a waspish dwarf like yourself, and they use hookers because they're better company. As it happens every one of those women had complexions like a plate of porridge, most probably a result of drugs and too much semen. They were hardly attractive specimens so I guess it's a case of 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. From what I saw of them on TV and in the press I'd sooner slam my dick in a door than let any of them near it.

It's spelt 'you', your childish text-speak says so much about you.

pississippi, you do seem like an unpleasant fellow. tell me, were you sodomized as a child? There is more of beauty in a moment's silence than in all the works of tongue or pen...

'a waspish dwarf like yourself' hahahahahahahaha! What a great image! Sadly untrue, however. 'Are you suggesting I may be wrong in my assessment of your domestic problems?' Yup, dead wrong. Sorry. I may grumble occasionally, but that's all it is: grumbling. A bit like you, really.