Pretty Fed Up With The Way This Works.

It's both a writing and a reading site. "I am sorry if it sounds like I am ranting but I am getting fed up with the 'slowness' around here." Well, it's a free service and users choose how they use it, or not. If people aren't commenting on your work it could be that your work is not very interesting or that there aren't very many people using the site. I don't usually comment on prose stuff - as opposed to poetry - because it takes longer to read and I know less about how to write it.

Nah, its not about 'my stuff' in particular. You comments are valid. And the fact that you made them is good. I am very very new to writing SO I don't expect to make anything good yet. I am flailing about trying to do something at the moment. I prefer it when people tell me where I have done wrong. Than 'alright'. ;)

‘Is this a writing site, or a reading site?’ Well, it kinda has to be both. I assume anyone who publishes their work on this, a public site, intends it to be read. Luckily, there are people who visit the site and read – whether they be writers themselves or not. All pieces posted are guaranteed to be read at least once, if only by the Editors. Whether any reader feels motivated to offer feedback or criticism, however, is another matter. There have been recent discussions, Phil, about putting up a separate, ‘crit wanted’ forum but, as it stands, the assumption is that the vast majority of writers would appreciate some form of feedback. With that assumption in mind, those willing to read work on Recently Added or wherever, give feedback or criticism, if they feel inclined, via the Discuss Writing forum. The problem with flagging your own work *exclusively* is that, if everybody did that every time they wrote something new, the Dis Writing forum would collapse under a flood of (mostly unanswered) requests for feedback. It would be no different from having to, ‘trawl through the existing stuff’ on Recently Added. As it is, with limited use of self-flagging, the Discuss Writing forum is able to highlight pieces that readers actually want to comment on. As to, 'I'm unsure about X...' type problems, I’ve always found the Writing Tips forum a good place to ask for advice on specifics when drafting. Having one-to-one discussions with other writers, along the lines of, ‘Hey X, I saw you write Romance…’ can often be done through the contact member feature. ~ www.fabulousmother.com

You see, now we are talking. Yes, if there was a complete free 'self flag' forum it would get swamped. You make alot of good points. However there is another side as well. That of the nature of the criticism offered. In reference to this how do you dice fall? Ask yourself, why are you here. I am asking myself that. I am here for self promotion and entertainment through the active participation in a community. I will admit I am not here to read. I am here because I a, new to writing and want to try and get some feedback from strangers. I am trying my best to put in the necesary time and read that of others. My comments are based on me. I can't let go fully. But I would like to be able to let go more. Lots of people (including me sometimes) need a good hard kick up the backside. I am pleased when people pass comment, on what ever I write - be it a post or a piece of fiction.

Personally, I feel that if people DID flag their own pieces for particular reasons, eg. characterisation, plot, flow, etc. and asked for feedback, I'd be much more eager to get involved and read more, simply because someone is asking me (and others) to become involved in their work. ;) I wouldn't mind atall. I don't for a second think that self-promotion is a bad thing. In fact, through experience, I believe that a small minority of writers used to monopolise the 'discuss' forum by slating people for flagging their own pieces, which gave the minority the opportunity to swamp the forum by flagging each other. No big deal, but it's time to remove some of the stale air from the site, and open up the doors a crack wider - and enjoy what's on offer. :@) When the power of love overcomes the love of power, we'll find peace. - Jimi Hendrix

I agree that there's a little too much of a taboo about "self-promotion"... we humble folk may not like to admit it, but no one achieves success by (apologies for the following cliché) hiding their light under a bushel. That said, I think it is easy not to notice that everyone who contributes to any of the discussion forums here is a writer, whose "work" is effectively being "criticised" by anyone who responds to their comments. Personally I enjoy the process of putting across my opinions on a discussion forum, and the relatively intelligent and lucid (generally...!) nature of the members/comments here make it a little more challenging/creative/interesting a process that it may be on a... ooh, I dunno... cheese lovers forum... Not to diss cheese lovers, I hasten to add... I am rather fond of the stinky dairy produce myself... pe ps oid ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)

bbFrancis. I read, I think I have made that clear. I read outside the site. If anyone wants to seriously improve their writing they have to write. and write, and write. Reading helps, but not as much as writing. As we are opening the doors to being a little honest, I have to say that you have a little to learn about people and the interaction there-with. You may not mean to come accross as agresive as you do and you may consider yourself to me comfortable with they way you express youself, but sometimes you sound like a bully. I am sure this is just an issue with the internet and not with your intentions. I think suggest don't tell is a better approach. You don't know the final line, there is no final line infact. Your experience may bring you portions of enlightenment that you wish to share. But make sure you remember that everyone is different. Pepsoid. I really enjoy an open discussion. I think its a wonderful part of human nature. I agree that any coment made is also open for criticism as a piece of writing. I for one have appaling spelling due brain issues, and know that sometimes I can be overly verbose. I want to encourage people to speak up. An honest comment always shines through as kind, weather it be positive or negative. I recon. Even if its about a comment itself.

... and bullying is bad, m'kay. Phil, if you really want to use this site to become a better writer then the best thing you can do is read other people's work and comment on it. It'll force you to really think about writing, about what worked and what did not, and will actually be far more useful to you than receiving a handful of conflicting opinions on your own work from random internet people you've never met. That said, personally I have no problems with people flagging their own work for comment, but then I feel no compulsion to respond if I don't want to. Providing critique is quite a lot like hard work, and nobody is being paid to do it. Everybody here, reading, writing, critiquing, is doing it for themselves and out of love, I don't think you can expect them to change their behavior one iota.

bbFrances. The discussion between us about that is not open in a different channel. This is, an albeit short, public appology for upsetting you personally. However, as I have explained, I had a reason. I am now stepping to the other foot and hoping this is not also 'the wrong one'. Maddan. I don't ask people to change. However, I believe there are some people sitting back from their prefered course for reasons other than lazyness. I am going to put my energy into promoting the selfpromoters cause because i believe it, also, makes people think more carefully about their work. Why did they write it in the first place? Reading is good, that is not in questions, but nothing can replace writing. Actually doing it is the best. I want to become a writer, I read as much as I can in the day (not necesarily here), but I also want to write. Living in London has a sapping effect on time and energy. You have to decide how to distribute it. I am new to writing, as in this year. I firmly believe that you have to write alot to become fluent. Reading helps and is a great analysis tool between work. But nothing is better than writing. There is, infact, a strong argument for _not_ reading other fiction when you are trying to write. But I won't go into that here.

Phil. you're dead right that you have to sit down and actually write in order to get good at it (some people seem to need this shouted at them). Actually sitting down and doing it is the greater part of writing, but editing is the greater part of writing well (even if you're editing internally before you even put key to keyboard). And, similarly, editing is a skill you also need to practice at. For my own part, I'd say that I haven't learned half as much by writing as I have by reading, and occasionally partaking in, the critique of other peoples' work.

The suggestion that people read and comment isn't to suggest that you buy crit for yourself by giving. It is more about becoming an active member of our online community. Like BBf says, you will learn a lot by reading other people's work as well. Most writers on here have families/jobs/studies and do not have hours spare to lovingly give you and others criticism. So sorry about the 'slowness'. The time I do have to pass comment - it is usually to people whose work I admire and I have built up a relationship with (back to the community thing) and I am always happy to give a newbie one fairly detailed comment. Realistically, if you want constructive criticism, you should sign up for a workshop or class with your local adult education centre. I am doing one at City Lit at the moment and it is really excellent. A good workshop however will cost you, not just financially but you will be expected to comment on the work of other people in the class. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Phil, the second you place any writing in a form where other people can read it, you're asking for their time. Especially so with this site. Simply by placing it here, you're saying 'take some time to read my work'. Sometimes people come across a piece of writing that makes them think 'I'd like to tell other people about this' or 'I think I know how this could be better'. There is usually something that has piqued their interest about the piece in question. In that, ABCtales is much like the real world. People are interested in things that they find interesting, and less so in things that are less interesting. Based on your model Phil, who's going to be doing the critiquing? If you're more interested in writing, and don't really want to do any reading, this suggests that there are others who should be doing the reading, not you. This brings to mind the kind of worlds created in fantasy roleplaying games, where every single creature is a twelve foot carnivorous war demon, so everything is a predator and only really exists to make the story happen. Who, exactly, will be doing the critiquing Phil? Show me a writer who thinks giving critique to others isn't important, and I'll show you a conceited cock. There is a responsibility involved in involvement with places like this. You seem to be saying that you don't want to read here, because it takes away from your writing time; but why would this be different for anyone else? It really does seem to me that you're whinging because you haven't got enough attention, or the attention that you think you'd like. get out there and start submitting writing to proper places for publication and you'll soon find out just how much attention your work has had here. I'll spell things out for you: The best way to recognise you mistakes in writing is to see other people making them. They way that you do this is READ THE WORK OF OTHERS I was the editor of this site for three years or so, and during that time read close to everything that passed through it. I commented on a lot of stuff, too. I didn't write very much during that time, but now I'm doing so and guess what? My writing is a thousand times better, because I know what the bits of others people writing that didn't work are. I'm suggesting, and I won't patronise you by sugaring the pill, that the reason that you haven't had the feedback that you'd like to have is because there isn't anything greatly interesting about your work at the moment. I have never had a problem with people flagging their own work, or, to be honest, with people jumping in feet first and saying 'what do you think?'. I do get a bit narked when it's not seen as a two-way street. As a number of people have pointed out in other threads, it's the people who are offering the critique who are doing the favour, not the other way round. Answer me the question of who is going to do the critiquing in your scheme, based upon your propositions, and I might have less reservations about it. Cheers, Mark

"It really does seem to me that you're whinging because you haven't got enough attention, or the attention that you think you'd like. get out there and start submitting writing to proper places for publication and you'll soon find out just how much attention your work has had here." Good point. When the power of love overcomes the love of power, we'll find peace. - Jimi Hendrix

"conceited cock". Um, is language like that necesary? "It really does seem to me that you're whinging because you haven't got enough attention, or the attention that you think you'd like." No, I am complaining because people are being chastised for asking. If people ignore what I post I don't mind. I let it pass. When the only thing people say is 'don't promote your own work' and take the time to say that as opposed to nothing THEN I feel like i have to kick off. You obviously don't understand my point. "My writing is a thousand times better" didn't you make a comment who say things like this? "the reason that you haven't had the feedback that you'd like to have is because there isn't anything greatly interesting about your work at the moment." I KNOW! I have never professed to be any good. The fact that people are banging on about that is a sign that they have no idea what I am talking about. Their own quibbles about the level of feedback they get is shining through. My point is not about the feed back I get. You seem to think it is. Why? Also, you seem to be missing the part when I say I DO READ OTHER PEOPLES STUFF. But, I don't take the time to FIND it. When there is a post here where the author has said 'look at this' or similar with someone else doing the posted I have read etc. The fact that I think WRITING is important and is what I do in my free time should not be of concern. As to 'Who' is doing the crit. That would be anyone and everyone. I am just not trawling through 'recently added' or 'gallery' because that is not something I have time to do. I prefer it when an Author profers up something and says 'I did this, what do you think'. Most of all. You seem to think this is about ME! This is not about ME. Yes I ask for Crit on my stuff. So what? What kicked this whole thing off is Board Nazis telling other people how and what to post. Also, telling people how to spend their time. To conclude, the reason I kicked off is not because I am not receiving any attention. About that I could care less. What I am complaining about is people telling others what and how to do. Somepeople seem to think they know the best way to do things. These people are oppressing others. As I have said before, maybe this is not the place for me. I don't usually hang out in 'artistic' communities because I am not an 'artist'. Also, artists who get too big for their boots don't like it when other people step in and start to question that. I have seen it before. "I am an Writer, darling!"

Phil, everybody who posts their work on the internet is implicitly asking for it to be read, ninety percent of the authors in the Recently Added list would love some well thought out constructive criticism, and the rest havent got a leg to stand on if you give it anyway. It's taken as read. What is it you think you need to go searching for? If people have tried to tell you how the forum works, they may have been a little blunt about it but they are just trying to be helpful. If you continually post asking for comments on your own work you just come off as an annoying tit shouting 'look at me, look at me'. Don't do it.

This is obviously not the place for me. I am off.

Phil, placing your writing on this site is 'flagging it up'. The recently added is a list of pieces of writing saying 'look at me and tell me what you think'. ABCtales is a bit different from myspace, or bebo or youtube. It's not a 'PLS comment!!! XXXX' culture, partly because it predates all of this exciting Web 2.0 stuff. There is a difficulty, often, in that the people claiming to want to feedback most strongly are often people who want encouragement most strongly, rather than feedback. People say they want feedback, but often are very unhappy when they get someone's honest and painstaking critique. Quite reasonably, most long standing members of this community make a decision as to whether their feedback will be of any help. Often, you need to know where you're at with writing to make any use of feedback people might give you. If you are new to the game, insecure or haven't read much, getting your first proper response in terms of advice, appraisal and suggestions can be a dispiriting and undermining affair. Often people who pop in, say 'what do you think of my poem?' and then wait for replies are at this stage. When people offer an encouraging critique, it can be hard for people at that stage of developing their writing to know what to make of it. Some see it as what it is, a warm suggestion of ways to get better. Others see it as a review and believe that they've already arrive at mastery of their chosen form. Some people have less time to do this than others. Some are less kind than others. I do understand your point Phil, and I've answered it comprehensively. It's not the first time I've answered similar. My statement about my writing being a thousand times better is my own appraisal, based on the fact that I have read everything that I've written, and like my recent stuff a thousand times more. Oddly, you'll find that there are very few people who frequent ABCtales regularly who would describe themselves as artists or of possessing an artistic temperament. There are a few who I would call artists, but they probably wouldn't agree. Cheers, Mark

So much for listening to a constructive debate!

OH NOES! SOMEONE UPSET PHIL HARVEY!

Big Bully Francis!

Phil, if it is any consolation i remember feeling just like you when i joined. I wanted the discuss writing forum to work in the way i thought it should, in fact i think i started a thread about it on here. This site will work the way it works, and that depends on whose around etc. There are times when it frustrates me when i flag a piece and others don't comment, but that also tells me about my choice and helps me to hone my critiquing skills. Reading is (imo) more important than writing, certainly when you begin. Picking out the mistakes others make (even if you don't flag and provide a formal critique) will stop you making the same ones. And yes, there are some long standing members who can seem a little abrupt. But they are often the ones that spend a huge amount of time reading. It therefore takes a lot to get them excited as a huge amount of stuff posted on here is very samey and makes the same mistakes over and over. The more you improve the less time you want to spend telling people about the fundamental mistakes they are making, that they would see if they just read with a critical eye the work of others. Your best bet is to find another active member on here who's writing is at around the same stage and email them to ask if you could set up a critiquing friendship. When i first joined Lisa H was inavaluabe, but it worked both ways as i had a responsibilty to invest time in her work to. Don't storm off in a huff - stay and play. Juliet

oops too late, he's gone. who will he return as?? Juliet p.s. how many peeps on here have an alter ego? I have one, but she's a little inactive, i've forgotten her password. I'm guessing Mikey H is one.

Barely Buttered Francis? ~ www.fabulousmother.com

'This site will work the way it works, and that depends on whose around etc. There are times when it frustrates me when i flag a piece and others don't comment, but that also tells me about my choice and helps me to hone my critiquing skills.' It's worth pointing out that I regularly act on the recommendations in the Discuss Writing forum and click through to read pieces - it's just that at the end of reading I don't always have anything interesting or constructive to say. Just passively reading something and coming to your own conclusions about it is, in my humble opinion, a perfectly valid way of approaching work on the site. If I felt I had to write a cogent mini-critique on everything I read, I'd read far, far less work. The fact is, I work full-time writing manuscript critiques, and if someone genuinely *needs* one, they can jolly well pay me for it. Otherwise, take what you're given and be grateful.

don't stop BBF, it is the diversity and honesty of the personalities on here that make this a site that i come back to, even though sometimes i vow i never will. and Rokkit raises a valid point that if you get a flag, reads usually accelerate. If no other comments are added then either they agree with the flagger, or, don't see what all the fuss is about. I value the process because if i write something that is flagged e.g. Brothers in arms (now gone to competition slush pile no doubt) then i know i have written something that really created a reaction, or, as quite a prolific poster on here, something that shows a development or an interesting change in my writing. Juliet

Flagging accelerates reads because it's a form of outside validation. An author is not a credible advocate for his or her own work. An area in which I feel abc is seriously lacking, however, is the ability to browse the archives. So much attention is focused on the latest postings, and trying to go back through old stuff is a terrible slog. It's a massive shame - so much old stuff is just sitting there, forgotten about, unread.

I wasn't trying to out you BBF, i enjoy Mikey H's posts, but his prose is poetic and the tongue in cheek style seemed familiar, hence my curiousity. "Flagging accelerates reads because it's a form of outside validation. An author is not a credible advocate for his or her own work." Exactly, but said so much more succintly than my attempt. Juliet

"An author is not a credible advocate for his or her own work." This is a concept I was slow to grasp, but it's 100% true. I like some stories I've written more than others, but I've quit trying to figure out which ones other people will like - I've a perfect track record of being wrong.

That's a great point, Foster - I haven't posted too much recently but I also filter through a local writing group and getting (and giving) face-to-face feedback is so important. Sometimes almost throwaway stuff is well-received, other times what I thought was eloquent and crafted writing of mine is shown to have major flaws. But some people think it's a support group for writers' egos and get upset if the feedback isn't all they'd hoped for. At such a group we try to find constructive ways to improve poor writing but on a site like this it may be kinder to ignore it unless we know that the author's desire to improve is greater than the desire to flaunt.

Thankyou all for a good debate. This is a critical point on ABc - and one to which there is no real answer. I agree that genuine, critical criticism is the best medicine - but people are very very touchy about their writing. It's because when you write you give away a little piece of yourself - and that's its strength as well as its weakness. When you comment on someone's writing you are commenting on a very fundamental part of them. So, tread lightly but fearlessly and have improvement as you aim. You do need to read in order to learn to write better - that's one of the few facts in this whole area - but you also need to learn to listen to criticism and not just react to it. Accept it or reject it - both are fine - after all, it's just another person's point of view - but do consider it, don't just flounce off in a tantrum!

His flouncing has rendered him "Anonymous"! Let that be a lesson for us all... pe ps oid ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)

It's very, very rare that somebody's out-and-out scathing about someone else's work in the Discuss Writing forum. For the most part, the discussions are really friendly and very congenial. And of course, lest we forget, a lot of people swap critiques offsite, via the 'contact this author' email system.

I can tell that a lot of people have read my work here at ABC by the counts on my work, but I have no idea what people think of it. Am I to assume, because no one has mentioned any of my works on any of the forums that I have seen, that people simply didn't like what they read? And if so, how am I to interpret that, when on three other writing sites these very same pieces are winning awards? Is it only that people from the UK don't like it, or that the people reading my work either just don't comment or are not members?

Of course, on other sites people are given incentives to read and comment on other peoples work. Here there are no such incentives.

There's many types of fruit in a Christmas cake. pe ps oid ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)

Yep

What kind of incentives are offered? I would certainly like to get a better round of crit going - but it's really up to the members to do it. We are getting into a position where we can make radical changes to ABC if we want to do so - and this is the one area where I would like to get more going. Let me know your ideas - either email through the site or put them down here. ~Regards, The Management

I think it's been said before that we could take some of the best bits from Booktribes (which is a custom-made reader-feedback site) - so readers can comment directly on a particular piece of work, and that then automatically creates a forum thread for that piece. This way, the comments can be read in isolation or through the forum. It doesn't increase the amount of feedback, but may make it easier to comment. Manually copying/pasting the link and then going off to the forum can be a pain. And perhaps seeing a "reading history" of work you had recently read/rated/commented on - this would enable you to go back and re-read/revise comments/see who else had read/rated it. This might help to engender that feeling of commonality that Booktribes does so well.

"What kind of incentives are offered? I would certainly like to get a better round of crit going - but it's really up to the members to do it." On deviantArt individual members regularly run crit competitions with prizes of extensions to your subscription to the site, prints of your choice etc. People nominate crits they come across for their usefulness and thoroughness. I was recently asked to judge one, and it wasn't a great deal of work - probably just a couple of hours clicking on links, reading, making a shortlist, then deciding on a winner and citing reasons. User-run competitions, with cooperation from the ABC management, could be a good idea.

Just go to writing.com or FanStory.com and check it out. Here I just have posted some of my work and thats it. Nothing happens, so I go into the Forums, read stuff and get into arguements. You know, enjoy myself - nothing to do with writing. Oh, I do read some of the works here too.

They use "points" or "member cents". You earn them by reviewing others and use them to promote your own work. Check out these sites - they have massive numbers of users.

They also have contests and award systems.