Explaining things in very simple terms which can be perfectly understood is extremely difficult. Lawyers spend entire days in court cases arguing over a particular point in order to find some kind of mutual understanding. So while simplicity is desirable, it isn't always possible in order to convey mesages properly. Most attempts to couch things in simple terms just end up being head-slappingly dumb.
"...which says quite a lot about how we should live our lives."
Your bosses would agree with you - what's the point in working your fingers to the bone when, with a bit of skullduggery, you can get a wage-slave army to bear most of the weight?
Lilies are lilies. If you're a human you've either got to be prepared to work hard or happy to let other people work hard for you.
A tad black and white there, Jack.
What if you work hard for your boss but get frustrated. What if you have what you think is a good idea, decide to take a gamble on it, leave the security of your job to do it for yourself. And keep working hard. What if you have to start up so small because of lack of money behind you, that for years you have no-one else to share the load with and nowhere else to pass the buck. What if you don’t have a ‘boss’ but the clients who pay your wages couldn’t give a shit, quite rightly, if you suddenly fall ill or need a break? What if such a hard worker is eventually in the position to offer others paid positions to help cope with the increasing workload that clients are still putting their way because of the non-stop commitment shown over the preceding years… what if this trend continues… you can see where this is going can’t you?
I’m not saying the eventual payback for doing your own thing can’t be huge, but for most it’s a very long time coming and skullduggery and laziness at the expense of others has nothing to do with it. It still puts you in the category of 'boss' though.
“If you're a human you've either got to be prepared to work hard or happy to let other people work hard for you."
There are exceptions, granted – crooks with money, in my experience – but it's not usually a case of either/or.
~
www.fabulousmother.com
Lou, you describe my situation perfectly! I'm afraid that my 54 years have taught me - no pain, no gain! It's not often, if ever, that money will fall into your lap. It's normally years of hard graft and commitment that brings rewards - on top of a great idea!
As for those lilies, don't be fooled. They're working like crazy under the surface.
Believe it or not, it wasn’t my intention for this to become a “To idle or not to idle?” debate! But since it has…
I feel that Jesus perhaps recognised that we (humans) are not lilies. He was (as was his wont) using a metaphor to put across the idea that we should not toil needlessly. Much hard work is necessary – I accept that – but I think there is no harm in frequently examining our lives and specifically our work patterns, with a view to discerning how much of what we do is necessary, how much of our hard work feeds back on itself (e.g. we work hard to buy a new TV, which we “need” in order to compensate for the fact that we work so hard), and how much of our hard work is undertaken by way of a blind, unquestioning contribution towards a pointless “work ethic.”
But back to the original point (which is, now that I think about it, similar to the above point)…
Some things probably do require a substantial amount of explanation (e.g. quantum mechanics)… but sometimes I think a single line will explain and, perhaps more to the point, be more understandable than reams and reams of detail. Your example of lawyers, Jack, is a good one! I recently questioned a particular clause on my contract of employment, which appeared to be saying something I was unhappy with, but in truth I didn’t really have a clue what it was saying. I left the matter with my HR person… a couple of weeks later, I am still awaiting an outcome…
pe
ps
oid
... What is "The Art of Tea"? ...
(www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)
lol...and here was I thinking this was a topic regarding mindfulness and unconditional duty to nature's scheme. Oh! No, it's become another mis-guided defence of...mindfulness and unconditional duty nature's scheme. How odd! How fitting to topic, also ;)
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, we'll find peace. - Jimi Hendrix
~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~
"I’m not saying the eventual payback for doing your own thing can’t be huge, but for most it’s a very long time coming and skullduggery and laziness at the expense of others has nothing to do with it. It still puts you in the category of 'boss' though."
I wasn't saying you can't be a boss at the same time. My point was that those who are in a position to take it easy, who credit themselves with having discovered a way round working hard, are, in a very general and loose sense, heaping more work on everyone else. It depends how much work you think is unnecessary (ie. does little more than generate excessive income, further a corporate empire, create more work etc.) and how much is just what has to be done to do to keep the world ticking.
The reference to Pepsoid' own bosses was due to the fact I get this impression, from previous threads, that he feels fairly put upon by the corporate world. I do sympathise with that feeling - I just feel like the philosophy of 'let's get the heck out of this rat race', which you might think is anti-corporate, is the same driving force that puts us all on the treadmill in the first place. Other people wanted to get on top of things, earn themselves enough to retire a little early etc. and the best way to do that is to make sure other people work for *you*!
those who are in a position to take it easy, who credit themselves with having discovered a way round working hard, are, in a very general and loose sense, heaping more work on everyone else.
I appreciate your "in a very general and loose sense," but... and I must ask your forgiveness if I sound rather conspiracy-est here... that's what they want you to think!
And before you ask, the "they" to whom I refer is not necessarily an actual group of people, along the lines of an all-powerful but ultimately secret Illuminati or somesuch, but more a sort of generalised, nebulous, not-necessarily-conscious collective of individuals and organisations throughout the centuries in whose interest it is to instil in the working masses this idea that "all hard work is good and necessary."
If I (somehow) drop out of "the system," sit on my arse and become an idle so-and-so for the rest of my life, and a million or so other people follow suit, I doubt, in the long run, it will make a hell of a lot of difference to the amount of real, useful work going round. If suddenly, for whatever reason, half of the "working" population of human beings stopped working, would the entire capitalist machinery fall apart? I very much doubt it! As long as we have Powerpoint presentations, health and safety officials, and layers and layers and layers of middle management, there will always be enough work for those who want to (or have to) work; but conversely, I absolutely believe that there are enough useless "jobs" in the world that there will always be enough people to do all the work that needs to be done.
pe
ps
oid
... What is "The Art of Tea"? ...
(www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)
'They', Pepsoid, are exactly the same people I accuse of heaping more work on everyone else. The people who understand that the best way to beat the system is to be the system - write your own contract! They have exactly the same philosophy as you - they've just found a more practical way of achieving the same goal. If *you* bunk off and become an idle so-and-so, you won't have anything to live on. Your captains of industry can do so whenever they wish.
I really don't think that we're locked into a corporate system by a belief that a 9 to 5 job is 'doing our bit'. That's the sort of dull duty that generally inspires apathy and procrastination in people. What keeps us on the treadmill, therefore, is the very thing you celebrate - the human desire to bunk off. The most ruthless of us have worked out that the best way to do this is by creating the most efficient slave networks out of everyone else.
What I'm saying is that if people, in general, were less selfish and more up for hard work, we would probably have *less* work to do overall - because in the field of idleness the success of the few is what enslaves the many.
Hm. I guess. The thing is, you said it here:
"I absolutely believe that there are enough useless "jobs" in the world that there will always be enough people to do all the work that needs to be done."
Exactly. So, suppose there's not much work that really *needs* to be done. The best way to avoid doing your share is to make enough money to not need to keep working for it, right? And the best way of earning money is to be in control of a successful business, right? Create lots of other work for people to do in order to *generate* the money you need to avoid work, right?
I guess that's hideously simplified, but there's still a kernel of truth here. I'm just trying to get you to see that the desire for *less* work is not really anti-corporate or rebellious - it's part of how the corporate system binds us, part of why it's so damned successful.
'He stretcheth out the thread of his verbosity, finer than the staple of his argument.' You see, Billy Shakespear has said it all already. We might just as well give up and get jobs.
'He stretcheth out the thread of his verbosity, finer than the staple of his argument.'
:)))
Or we might as will give up and not get jobs! ;)
pe
ps
oid
... What is "The Art of Tea"? ...
(www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)
Surely the real point here is about the inherent nature of capitalism. Under this scheme we are all free to produce as much 'stuff' as we want. We can manufacture another type of toothpaste even though there are already far too many types of toothpaste. We are free to purchase as much 'stuff' as our money allows. All of this creates money and waste, which, in turn, create more money and waste. Yet all attempts to put handcuffs on this system seem to result in pain. Be it enforced co-operativism with central planning (Stalin) or enforced state capitalism (Hitler/Franco) it ends in tears.
Maybe it will be the enforced reduction of our profligate ways through environmental calamity that will light the way. Until we all see the reasoning behind it, it won't work.
Yes... Capitalism = money + waste.
The only way to bring down the evil system is to refuse to participate in it... Don't over-produce, don't over-consume... be self-sufficient!
Of course, that's easier said than done...
pe
ps
oid
... What is "The Art of Tea"? ...
(www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)
Ummm, in context of the surrounding passages, doesn't the quote "Take a lesson from the lillies of the field, how they are growing; they do not toil not do they spin" make a statement about how God provides for everyone and not to get too woried about where your next meal comes from? Surely it doesn't mean sit back and let God pick up the slack. Most people have to work if they want to support themselves- lillies have to work damn hard I'm sure.
"Surely the real point here is about the inherent nature of capitalism."
;)
..including the inherent nature of man.
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, we'll find peace. - Jimi Hendrix
~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~
Is Man inherently capitalist? :/
Ursula... all living creatures, including lilies, including humans, have to work hard... to survive. It is only humans who seem to have figured out how to work too hard.
pe
ps
oid
... What is "The Art of Tea"? ...
(www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)
When Jesus said this in Mathew 6:28, he was referring to trusting in God. He said that no man can serve two masters; he will either trust in (serve) mammon (material things) or he will trust in (serve) God. He said that we should not "worry" (the key word) about clothing, drink or food because God knows that we need these things. He said, “seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
He is saying in the corresponding 34th verse, that if we trust Him, He will take care of our needs just the way He does the lilies of the field. By putting before us, the things we need.
He is saying that if a person believes enough to trust God, that person will first work to bring himself in line with His teachings. Then the world will see that he is a hard working man who can be trusted.
Now for verbose, or should I say not verbose… yes, Jesus did have a way of saying things in short verse, direct, concise and to the point.
Pepsoid - Ursula... all living creatures, including lilies, including humans, have to work hard... to survive. It is only humans who seem to have figured out how to work too hard.
How so very true this is (I mean the last sentence). I think it is because we work at the wrong things. We have it backwards.
Character is the true measure of a man or woman, and eventually pays off in dividends.
Indeed, Mr K!
The concept of "idling" (see www.idler.co.uk, for a general idea of what I'm on about) seems to be misunderstood as being an attempt at not working at all - whereas a more accurate interpretation would be reducing work to an absolute minimum - reducing wasteage, and not working, as you say, Paul, "at the wrong things."
Aside from his directly spiritual teachings, Jesus is a man to be admired for speaking non-wastefully - in simple, straightforward, easy to understand terms. One might say, he was a Verbal Idler! ;)
pe
ps
oid
... What is "The Art of Tea"? ...
(www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)
~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
~
www.fabulousmother.co.uk
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
The All New Pepsoid the Second!
~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~
The All New Pepsoid the Second!