Science as a career
Thu, 2008-07-31 10:25
#1
Science as a career
Now I have returned from my sojourn in Australia, I feel at liberty to be a whingeing pom again and get my gripes off my chest.
My 19 year old brother has just completed his first year at Imperial where he is studying theoretical physics and just having received his first year exam results is on course to get a First. His main interests are particle and nuclear physics and has said his ideal career would be working on something like the nuclear fusion research projects (fusion power produces no high-level radioactive waste like fission power) and surely at a time when British gas have put their prices up by 35%, there are few things more important.
However, he has pointed out that due to the chronic underfunding of science in this country, and the poor wages scientists receive in exchange for the knowledge and expertise they have - he may work in finance for a few years first. But I think it would be hard to leave the salary of a trader or other financeer once used to it.
He is not greedy but if he stays with his chemistry student girlfriend and they both earned the salary of a research fellow, it would barely be enough to survive on. Other countries ensure science and technology is a well rewarded career choice because they know that technological innovation creates real wealth not the illusory wealth of the financial sector.
My second gripe is that because of the cost of transport in London, he has decided to cycle to college next year. I fully appreciate the issues highlighted in the Gan Culture thread, but statistically, he is more likely to be killed or seriously injured on his bicycle than knifed in London. Okay, it is good that £700,000 has been pledged to tackle gang culture but how about putting some cash into extending the cycle lanes or extending the 33% discount students get on London transport to a cost free freedom pass for all full-time degree students (at established universities).
Him being hit by a vehicle or becoming a hedge fund manager would both be utterly tragic!
mykle
Look Up ;o)
mykle
I was long a fan of the idea of Nuclear Fusion bringing us the same long promised free and endless energy that Fission had failed to deliver. I would sit in the garden singing softly to myself "I'm A Believer" made famous by The Monkees. Eventually my Monkee song turned to "Day Dream Believer." and now, instead, I hum...
"I Believe In Miracles" by the Flock :O)
bobblehat2023
"Other countries ensure science and technology is a well rewarded career choice because they know that technological innovation creates real wealth not the illusory wealth of the financial sector."
We're not bad at developing weapons and pretty good at drugs, too.
Funnily enough, these are both industries where demand is primarily sustained by the state.
I'm not sure whether British capitalists are uniquely uninterested in putting their cash into long-term development of stuff that might actually be some use to someone.
I think it may be that in many other countries government's dip their toes (or their chequebooks) into other sections of economy, too.
poetjude
It is true that a fusion reactor may not even be commercially viable and is at least 50 years away if it is... but it is worth investigating ... equally, investigating renewable technologies requires our brightest young science graduates to stay in the field - but as so many commentators are pointing out, the UK government lacks a joined up, coherent energy policy.
The nuclear fusion research project in Cadarache is being funded by 6 countries plus the EU but Japan has been granted special status to supply the most staff. If the technology ever becomes viable, we would probably be in a similar situation to the one we are in now with our nuclear (fission) industry - using foreign companies to run the contracts because we lack the expertise ...
Whatever the debate about the future of energy, I think that most people would agree that a failure to fund science and incentivise young scientists will be at our long-term cost.
jude
"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net
poetjude
'I'm not sure whether British capitalists are uniquely uninterested in putting their cash into long-term development of stuff that might actually be some use to someone.'
Venture capitalists and other private sources of funding will only fund something if they know that the chances of them seeing a return for their money are reasonably high and in a reasonable time frame. Sometimes a company will fund something for Kudos and to boost brand value(like one-off supercars with ludicrous rocket like technology that would never be commercially viable) but not to any great extent. Weapons and drugs are pretty safe bets. Something like the IETR at Cadarache demands 5 billion for something that might not even work and probably wouldn't see any commercial application for decades if it did. That's why it is funded by governments from around the world.
State funding is essential for long-term projects that do not have odds tempting enough for venture capitalists but are worth investigating on the grounds of the huge pay-off if they did work.
jude
"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net
johnshade
I also studied theoretical physics and am now a researcher in artificial intelligence. It's true that research pay is lousy in Britain, especially for PhD students, but it's not _that_ bad. At least not compared to academics in the arts, who are lucky if they can get a job at all. Having said that I did my thesis in Switzerland and now work in Germany partly because I didn't want to live like a monk (and partly because I wanted to get the hell out of Britain).
What's interesting is that America, despite it's free market ethos, is far and away the world leader in science research and most of the funding comes from the state. But guess who one of the biggest funding agencies is? The military... according to wikipedia DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) has a yearly budget of $3.2 billion!
poetjude
I guess the pay isn't that bad objectively - I think it has to be viewed in the context of the cost of living over here; housing, stealth tax etc.
A couple of years after I graduated in 1997, I worked in biomedical publishing and myself and my boyfriend bought a nice flat in London for around 2.5x our combined salary, we ran a car, enjoyed foreign holidays and had a comfortable though not extravagent life which I don't think is too much for a hardworking professional couple to ask for.
This of course is an issue for everyone not just graduates or science graduates but the fact remains that research fellows are undervalued here. Like you, I think my bro will seek opportunities overseas contributing to the scientific brain drain!
jude
"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net
bobblehat2023
"State funding is essential for long-term projects that do not have odds tempting enough for venture capitalists but are worth investigating on the grounds of the huge pay-off if they did work."
Yep. Unfortunately, we've had 29 years of governments that oppose the state taking that kind of role.
That said, there are ways that governments can regulate economies to encourage long-term investment by private companies.
"What's interesting is that America, despite it's free market ethos, is far and away the world leader in science research and most of the funding comes from the state."
It doesn't have a free market ethos (at least not domestically), it just intervenes in the market for particular reasons in favour of particular interests.
mykle
Fly Me To The moon.
Virgin Galactic reveals its new high-flier ship which is planned to take those with enough cash to places only astronauts (and the odd billionaire) have been before.
One small step for man a huge leap in profits for Branson?
Maybe your brother should be considering fusion drives for spaceships, Jude.
"Aye, but anti-matter warp drives are far superior, Captain... fusion is alright for suns but it does na scale well."
mykle
Surprised I missed this - it's a couple of months old now but it reveals how much we don't know despite the Hawking hype!
"A universe could form inside this room and we'd never know", said the co-author of the study Professor Sean Caroll at the American Astronomical Society, because the phenomenon would be rather unspectacular.
Meanwhile, Professor Carroll urged cosmologists to broaden their horizons: "We're trained to say there was no time before the Big Bang, when we should say that we don't know whether there was anything - or if there was, what it was."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7440217.stm
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Physicists-Claim-Evidence-of-Universe-Bef...
Moimo
I thought they, (the powers that be), were trying to do more to encourage people going into science etc because of the shortage?
Of course going into the City, making enough to not have a mortgage etc would be tempting, but like you said, it all becomes about the money, always that one last deal etc.
The travelling's something else, is there not somewhere that can give him help or has he tried every avenue, how far does he have to travel and between which zones?
The cycling angle, I dunno what to say. The powers that be don't have to worry, even the ones on cycles don't wear helmets, probably so people slow down to say, 'fuck me that was Dave/Boris.'. I mean how else could thay stay on their bike at traffic lights in central London? But they need to do more deffo.
Hey maybe there's the solution, bleach his hair, grow it over his eyes and use a few body warmers underneath his t'shirt or jacket and people will slow down to stare in case it's Boris, change his route a little every day so people don't get used to it.
Craig
poetjude
There are many people who leave the City to write a book or become a zookeeper, when they own a house or two outright and have a couple of million tucked away somewhere ...but junior brokers don't earn enough to do that in a few years. We always read about the obscene payouts but the average salary in the city is just over 50K and average bonus just 30% of gross salary. A person may surpass this to become one of the minority 'big hitters' but it takes time. So if my brother went down this road, I could see him leaving to take his PhD aged about 30-35.
I will suggest the Boris outfit to him... I think it is an excellent idea!
jude
"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net
Moimo
Or maybe we could petition Boris to look like a regular cyclist so he bites the dust a few times and is forced to improve safety.
Seriously though, a lot of areas would need a dividing railing
Craig
poetjude
Excellent article in today's Telegraph about Energy for this country and the lack of expertise
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/08/12/cctrac...
jude