Brinksmanship?

The South also erected a massive Christmas tree close to the border. A gesture of goodwill no doubt. Apparently it's only provocation if the North does it.

Mangone, Korea is an interesting topic. My father served in the Army during the Korean conflict and I have many close friends who have been stationed there (mostly from the 60's & 70's. You make a few factual assumptions that aren't accurate. First of all, the US does not unilaterally impose a boundary. The US is there under a treaty agreement with South Korea. The boundaries are very well defined in the UN armistice agreement which you can read here. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Korean_Armistice_Agreement Another misconception and something you don't seem to be aware of with your statements is that South Korea was assisted by the UNITED NATIONS, and it was not a US only operation. Of all belligerent nations, South Korea was assisted by over a dozen countries, including the US, United Kingdom, Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Netherlands and many others. North Korea was assisted by China, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Soviet Union (obviously, Communist bloc countries) The two Korea's are still technically at war. The issues separating the two nations have not been resolved. The United States and South Korea signed a Mutual Defense Treaty in 1953. It's a fairly basic treaty, and the United States has lived up to its' responsibilities under that treaty and from all appearances it will continue to live up to the terms of that treaty. Now, the island that was in the news last month is not in dispute. That island is clearly denoted in the Armistice agreement as to be in the possession of United Nations/South Korea. I've confirmed this myself by looking at the lat/long of all listed coastal islands and there's no question about it. Now, from an anecdotal standpoint(from my father and my peers who've been stationed there over the years.) The North Korean military is an exceptionally belligerent entity. There have been many many instances of them firing over the fence line, most of which you don't hear or read about in the news, and this has been going on for years and years. US soldiers have been killed, South Korean soldiers have been killed. There have also been cases where the South Koreans have fired across the fence line. And it is quite probable that even US troops have fired across the fence line. The DMZ is a live fire zone and even something like a spotlight directed in the wrong direction can piss someone with a rifle off. It is a very very tense and hair trigger situation. The fact that full scale combat hasn't broken out already is a testament to China and the US getting involved. If it was left solely to the two Korean countries, there would be open warfare in progress at this very moment. And Chuck...the UN armistice doesn't specify a specific distance from the border that a Christmas tree must be erected. Therefore, one can assume that it's okay so long as it isn't on the other side of the border. I personally don't find a tree to be a provocation, but you may, since it's obvious that anything involving the United States is going to come under the excessive scrutiny of left leaning British pundits. Fortunately for South Korea, they don't have to rely on the British for much of anything related to national defense, and British big mouths don't really change the picture one way or the other for those actually involved on the ground. Share your state secrets at... http://www.amerileaks.org

Not sure why you need to drag Britain and the US into this. South Korea is a sovereign nation. Surely the decision to conduct military exercises and erect a large Christmas tree on the border was theirs alone. Not provocative at all. Tis the season of good will. Try to go easy on the editing. It gets hard to keep up.

Sorry about the editing thing. It's not easy to see what I've done on my Blackberry until after I've posted it. Share your state secrets at... http://www.amerileaks.org

Well the Christmas tree/military exercise combo certainly makes for an interesting message. Kinda like come to Jesus or else.

Assuming there is a Christmas tree and assuming there is a message being projected, I would venture a guess that the message to the North Korean Army is a very simple sentiment of "Fuck You" When I was in Cuba, that was a consistent message transmitted across the "zone" from both sides and just about anywhere else there is a "zone", the sentiment is universal. Often times an additional sentiment is projected as well. That would be... "come and get some" Looks like nobody want's to come and get some doesn't it? The exercise by South Korea illustrates just that. The exercise is probably saying something like this... "Fuck you assholes. Don't like it, come and get some. When you come get some, we're gonna stomp your ass into the frozen mud." The fact that the North Korean's turned down the invitation to "go get some" is indicative that there is sufficient deterrence to keep a war from breaking out. Now, lets take Wiki-creep Assange out there to the DMZ and see if he can fast talk the Koreans into thinking differently. There's a dirt road between fence lines where he can walk up and down the road with a bullhorn, talking his talk and walking his walk. I'm wondering how long he'd last. Share your state secrets at... http://www.amerileaks.org

Property in Seoul (very close to the DMZ) is considerably more desirable on the south side of the Han river. Quite what help they think it's going to be in the event of a NK invasion/shelling, I don't know. Although it is an impressively sizeable river ... From my experience, South Korean people are very kind, hospitable and generous in so many respects, and it's a beautiful (if slightly strange) country. The trouble is that their politicians don't tend to last very long in power unless they are seen to be facing off the north. This is, I suppose, the downside of democracy.

Mangone, I didn't miss the point at all. Your point, as I interpreted it, was that the US was creating a unilateral NLL in the waters off of western Korea in the Yellow sea around the coastal islands. The US didn't create anything, we're simply there under a treaty agreement to help defend South Korea. The NLL line is a matter for the UN South Korea and North Korea to determine. You also claim in your original post that there are 5 disputed islands. I don't see these islands possession status as being disputable, as everything seems to be covered by the Armistice agreement. Still, the North Koreans can dispute anything and there isn't much that can be done unless the dispute is resolved through either diplomatic or military means. Neither appear to be working at the moment. The real issue here seems to be navigable waters around these islands, to which you seemed to have morphed your argument (and properly so.) I also don't see a live fire military exercise by South Korea near the border or DMZ as being any more "Provocative" as a live artillery assault on one of the South Korean islands by the north in which civilians and military personnel were killed. I also wouldn't consider a live fire exercise near the border by South Korea to be as provocative as the North Korea Navy having a submarine torpedoing and sinking a South Korean patrol vessel, killing a number of South Korean sailors. I personally think South Korea has shown a great deal of restraint over the years. Discussing things is okay, but your argumental pov seems to be biased towards making incorrect and negatively biased assumptions about the motives and roles of the South Koreans and US Military. You seem quite reluctant to address anything the communist dictator in North Korea has been doing, which leads me to believe that you sympathize with the North Korean cause and are not an impartial commentator at all. Is this true? Or maybe, you just want to find some way to bitch about the United States, and this makes a convenient vehicle for your need to bitch about something that doesn't even involve you at any level. If it was a perfect world, there wouldn't be a conflict here. Everybody would be dancing together in the streets singing songs and eating roasted pigs. The truth is, North Korea is a nasty country and the US is about the only country in the world capable of helping the South Koreans keep their sovereignty. Share your state secrets at... http://www.amerileaks.org

You are probably right about the 'fuck you' message. This would be in line with Lee Myung-bak's reaction to the 'Sunshine' policy. But at the same time he talks about reunification. Maybe he's hoping the NK regime will just collapse. Can't see that happening myself because it wouldn't be in China's interest. It's all a bit too much for my little mind.

Mangone, I readily admit, I am biased. I am biased towards an American viewpoint and I'll argue that viewpoint. From your political viewpoint, which I'm assuming is far left, I'm no where near you. I am a American Libertarian, politically speaking so, you characterize and compartmentalize that all you like. As for Korea, the facts are out there, read them and believe what you want to believe. When you attack the United States, I'll speak up if I don't agree with your verbal attacks. Don't like it, tough shit. I have no use for ill informed bigoted xenophobes, particularly European versions. Share your state secrets at... http://www.amerileaks.org

Mangone, Don't change tactics. It's not manly. Share your state secrets at... http://www.amerileaks.org