Creative Writing courses - anyone got an opinion?

Well, i know the one i did was only a college enrichment, but it was still crap. We never did any actual creative writing; instead, we were given work on analysing how this story was watered down and how that author had made her work really girl for her audience. I handed my teacher some work to read out in class, which she had asked for, but she completely ignored it and was more interested in how we had numbered our portfolio! No-one in the class learnt anything for the whole year. Of course, saying that, university-type courses are probably different, but the above was just my experiance with the things.

You could try googling, "creative writing courses". When the power of love overcomes the love of power, we'll find peace. - Jimi Hendrix

I have just finished A215 with the Open University as an overseas student. If you are an EU citizen I can thoroughly recommend it, with the caveat, of course, that my work is a product of having done it, and therefore maybe a less than glowing testimonial.

Ewan is a bloody excellent writer. OU is excellent, or the arts foundation course I did years ago was. (Unless the MA course guarantees publication I wouldn't bother with it.) My latest killing is: http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/human_sacrifice.php I write book reviews here: http://www.litarena.com/books/

I've just started a 2 yr part time literature studies and creative writing MA - I didn't want to do just a creative writing one for all the reasons outlined above, and my experience with 'do this and you will be published' courses has made me cynical - the only way to get published is to keep working, keep sending stuff out and listen to any constructive criticism you're lucky enough to get. However I do like discussing books and after many years out of academic study I did quite fancy something a bit more structured than a reading group. And I did want to explore other aspects of my own writing. We're only on week two so I can't say yet if it's any good. I'm a single mum juggling work and everything else as well, and although it's only one evening a week plus occasional day workshops, there is lots of private study, and I already feel I might be on the short route to the nearest mental institution. But then I chose a course which starts off discussing postmodernism. The words heads, up, arse and own spring immediately to mind. I'm really doing it because I'd got into a rut with my own writing and (pretentiousness alert!) felt I wasn't exploring my full potential. Why I need the security of structured course to address that worries me a little, but it gets me out on a Tuesday night and I've met some new people. I don't think it will help towards publication. I'm paying for each module as I do it; there are six to be done and so far I've only got funds for the first three, but they don't know that and hey, how many lottery draws are there between now and next October? I wish you luck if you decide to go for it.I've got a feeling the key is to do it for enjoyment more than hoping it will open any doors. Expensive way to enjoy ourselves, though... :(

"I doubt any course would guarantee publication. Hm, cynicism abounds." Absolutely; and The OU, or any respectable institution would not presume to do so. I expect we'll have to wait for 'Novelist Idol'. Wonder who the judges would be? Here's my 4 Martin Amis Nick Hornby Jackie Collins (!) Doris Lessing because these shows aren't about the talent, they're about conflict.

seriously I would consider A215 Creative Writing with the Open University: and with the opportunity to attend tutorials and workshops face-to-face in the UK, too! I did this course entirely on line although we had a day school in Barcelona (and a night on the tiles!).

I suspect that the method of assessing the track record of any course in terms of publication is to question the professors and the alumni, rather than contributors to websites. Value for money in terms of your objectives is most likely to be assessed by comparing different courses methodically. Good luck. Pat My latest killing is: http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/human_sacrifice.php I write book reviews here: http://www.litarena.com/books/

I suspect that the method of assessing the track record of any course in terms of publication is to question the professors and the alumni, rather than contributors to websites. Value for money in terms of your objectives is most likely to be assessed by comparing different courses methodically. Good luck. Pat My latest killing is: http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/human_sacrifice.php I write book reviews here: http://www.litarena.com/books/

I find myself in two minds about stuff like this. On one hand, I'd love to be around people who write and to spend time both writing and discussing writing. It'd be really nice to have a group of peers who could set a pace for each other and bring out underdeveloped aspects of my writing. A structured foundation course in writing would be interesting, being forced to take on lots of unfamiliar stuff and trying to do it. On the other hand, I can't think of anything worse that being surrounded by a load of people who 'want' to be writers, sitting there waiting to be given the keys to the holy fountain of publication, politely nodding at each other and nursing the secret fire of unwarranted self-belief in their chests; only giving a toss about themselves. Cheers, Mark

I do notice the improvement of those on here who do MAs - especially those who manage to get into the University of East Anglia - so that in itself is, I guess, an endorsement. But it is a lottery. I suspect that the good ones are well worth it and the lesser regarded courses are possibly not!

Here’s a thought… 1. Put your creative writing talents to use and write your own creative writing course. 2. Attend and follow said course religiously (remembering to make suitable adjustments to the syllabus as and when it all gets too much). 3. Print yourself a certificate. 4. Dance around your bedroom/study/living room, clutching your certificate, singing “I’ve got a creative writing qualification!” and congratulating yourself on your cleverness. ;-) :-) ;-) pe ps oid What is "the art of tea"? And what does an "odd courgette" look like?

I can't understand the angst often expressed on account of the existence of writing (and painting) pupils. There's nothing any more wrong with wanting to be a writer than wanting to be a bank clerk or a hospital porter. And Heaven knows there are enough different styles of writing to suit all abilities. Perhaps not all writers will make great novelists, but then there's satire, comedy, journalism, criticism and so on. Personally, I see opportunities for all. And I don't see any reason to attack or loath people simply on account of their love of writing. In fact I think such feelings are a little silly. Kind regards, Pat My latest killing is: http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/human_sacrifice.php I write book reviews here: http://www.litarena.com/books/

Pat, I think you misread me. I like the idea of doing it, and I like the idea, I'm just not sure if I'd like the other people doing it. And I would point out that a 'love of writing' isn't the same thing as wanting to 'be a writer'. The people I really like are people who have a love of writing. The people that really get on my wick are those obsessed with the notion of being a writer, as if it were a position you occupy rather than a thing that you do. They tend to care about themselves. People with a love of writing tend to care about writing. Returning to the subject of courses, I think it's what you can make out of it. Other people can inspire, support and challenge you, but you'll get nothing from it unless you approach it in the right way. Cheers, mark

I pretty much think the same as Mark. I've just read the latest McSweeneys. Half of it is a symposium about (for? to? on?) Barthelme. He was a short story writer and teacher. A fair few of the contributors are his former students. They certainly think it was worthwhile. I believe you can learn about writing. Barthelme was keen to introduce his students to new writers. I was speaking to someone recently who was just finishing her c. w. MA. She thought it had been worthwhile. It gave her focus she said to do the writing. And she had met other people. I'd like to do one but it is not something that I'll ever be able to afford.

Hi Mark, I don't think that I misread you at all. I suspect that when you say writer you mean novelist. Of the debut novelists which I've met almost all of them had contacts in the publishing industry. So, perhaps it has more to do with who you know than how you write if you want to become a novelist. But, as I've already said, there are a whole range of other writing jobs which have nothing to do with writing novels and they include: Journalism, Satire, Comedy, Criticism and so on... And I can't for the life of me see anything wrong with wanting to do any of those jobs, (after all, somebody has to.) I don't see any way that loathing people on account of their wanting to be writers makes any sense. And I think doing so is prejudicial and nonsensical. I think the phrase I used was silly. Kind regards, Pat My latest killing is: http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/human_sacrifice.php I write book reviews here: http://www.litarena.com/books/

I care about people who want to be better at writing. I care much less about people who want to be 'a writer'. One is about getting better and accepting what you can learn with a level of humility and thought, and listening to the ideas, opinions and experience of others. The other is about having ideas of what a writer does, what a writer says and what a writer thinks and acting accordingly, not really paying attention to what might make you better at writing, which ever branch of writing you choose. Writing, of whatever stripe, is a a result of thinking + style + technique. All three can be taught, but only if you can get yourself into the right position to listen. Cheers, Mark

William Shakespeare may have wanted to be better at writing. We can all want to be better at it. Wanting to be better, if you're a perfectionist, is a desire which can never be satisfied. Never being satisfied with one's endeavours is hardly a practical preoccupation. And never being satisfied with the endeavours of others might easily be classified as intolerance. I think that I've shown ample examples of opportunities for writers of all kinds. We need them; they're necessary. And I'm extremely pleased that some people wish to fill the roles which I've listed. I'm also glad of meeting sensible and tolerant people when they're available. Kind regards, Pat My latest killing is: http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/human_sacrifice.php I write book reviews here: http://www.litarena.com/books/

Passerby, The comment that it is the least talented who monopolise shouldn't be a problem on a good MA such as UEA where the places are competitive since those who would be best putting their time elsewhere (to put it politely) should be weeded out in the selection process. However Arvon courses or MAs from smaller HE establishments that will take pretty much anyone who can pay for their place, this can be a real problem. It is a problem in adult education generally not just creative writing. I dropped out of one of my theology modules at Birkbeck because of some idiot trying to be a know-it-all but failing in spectacular fashion by making inappropriate, tangential comments constantly. It's harder for a tutor to keep a kind of academic discipline in cases like that. That said, the city lit creative writing course I did was most helpful and I was lucky to get a class with a lot of talented individuals and nobody who was really rubbish. I guess it depends on where you want to go with your writing. I am investing £3k and 3 years of my life in a part time MA in Bioethics because I think the change in direction of my church/ media based career will be well worth it. I wouldn't put so much into something just because it interested me. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

All any course can do is expand your toolkit as a writer - introduce you to ways of writing - and reading - you may not have come across before, and challenge you to take various plunges. I personally think the MA qualification in something like writing is pretty meaningless; it's just a title to indicate that the course will have an academic bent, which may or may not be your individual thing. I chose to do my course because I know a couple of people who have done it and found it very worthwhile, the university is a short walk from both my home and work, and I can combine it with the day job. I hope it will make my writing better, but I'm not expecting it to turn me into A Writer. Drew - yes, it is expensive. There are bursaries etc out there, but I never managed to get one. I've been planning this for a couple of years, and putting any money I earned through writing in a high interest account to go towards the fees. Also been asking family to give me donations towards it for the last few Christmas and birthdays. The fact that I've still only got enough for the first year tells you a lot about my track record in getting published.

Where are you based? From what you've said, I think the evening courses at City Lit (Central London) sound ideal for what you are looking for. There are a couple of us ABCTalers who have done courses there and we all have positive things to say. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

'Creative Writing courses - anyone got an opinion?' Yes.

Haha

The best ever creative writing course I attended was Robert McKee's Story Seminar. It lasted just three days but was jam packed with valuable and practical tips. McKee uses few visual aids or gimmicks. His course consists almost entirely of him talking, which for most learning experiences should be a recipe for disaster. It most certainly wasn't. In fact it was probably the most gripping, eye-opening three days of my life. McKee is an electrifying speaker. At the end of each day my hand was sore from writing notes. It's aimed chiefly at those wishing to write a screenplay, though many of the principles he teaches also apply to other forms of story telling including novel writing. McKee's course is legendary in Hollywood. A large number of Hollywood screenwriters and directors, not to mention actors, have been on it. On the session I attended I was astonished to discover that one of the other 'students' was John Cleese. The only drawback is that it's not cheap. The next one is in London in November. http://mckeestory.com/london.html Other than once having attended it I don't have any connections with it, financial or otherwise.

Broosh, have you seen Adaptation? That's got McKee (or a version of McKee) in it. Charlie Kaufman, the film's actual scriptwriter played by Nick Cage, has a brother Donald who wants to learn how to write scripts like his big brother Charlie. Donald goes on a McKee course. Charlie has a breakdown trying to adapt a book to a screenplay. So he hands the end of the script over to Donald, who promptly turns it in to an action romp. It's worth seeing for the ambitious script alone. Joe

'Adaptation' is a FAB film, so blackly, bleakly funny; one of my favourite films ever. The whole scriptwriter angst stuff is hilarious. I've watched it five or six times, and it never gets old. (Although Charlie is Donald's 'big' brother by about five minutes, as they're twins.) Kaufman (the real one) says that Donald represents his shadow self, the one he'd like to be, as he doesn't really have a twin. Just brilliant to write that into a script, about writing a script. I think if you want to go on a course, and want to learn something about your subject, it's never a waste of time, and the fact that there may or may not be a couple of pretentious f*cknuts on the course with you shouldn't put you off. You'll still take information away from it.

"Broosh, have you seen Adaptation?" Spack I'm ashamed to say I haven't. But I'm going to remedy that as soon as I can. Thanks for the tip. Brooosh

Yes, do. Adaptation is fab. Kaufman also wrote, Eternal Happiness of the Spotless Mind, which is another great film, and the director of that film went on to do Science of Sleep which is also a lovely film (and you get to see Gabriel Garcia Bernal's willy which is always a bonus.)

Eternal Sunshine, actually, Drew... Quick, make the correction, before anyone sees! ;) ---------- "f*cknuts"... :-))))) ---------- Passerby... you said it! You have kids, therefore you are a mum... By the same token, you write therefore you are a writer, you play music therefore you are a musician. Anything beyond this is semantics and snobbery. Call yourself a writer and you are a writer! Convince yourself of the truth of this (and it is true, regardless of whether or not you are published, how often you write, etc) and you are on the way to achieving the confidence you need to be the kind of writer you want to be... :) pe ps oid What is "the art of tea"? And what does an "odd courgette" look like?

Oh, and Kaufman also wrote the wonderful Human Nature, which I have recently seen... He's a rare example of a humorous yet poignant/thoughtful screenwriter... :) pe ps oid What is "the art of tea"? And what does an "odd courgette" look like?

If you have young children, you might be able to practise your writing by making up stories for them, like AA Milne and Kenneth Grahame did.

Children are our harshest critics! :) pe ps oid What is "the art of tea"? And what does an "odd courgette" look like?

You have to ask yourself, why do I want to do a creative writing course? If it is to get published, then you have a slim chance, in the real world, you have a slim chance - reasons? Publishers and agents get thousands of manuscripts every month, most of them unsolicited and how many get picked up, well you can guess that it's in single figures. I have been a writer for many years and have taught many students, mentored many writers, and I always tell them if they are writing for the money, then they should forget it. Most novelists, poets, screenwriters subsidise their writing with teaching or academic research (some just drive taxis, I did for awhile and even worked in an abbatoir for awhile). If however, you enjoy writing for writing, then do a course but be wary you will be surrounded by those who have never read a book, have no interest in writing and are generally there to just get an 'easy' degree - sorry to sound jaded. I would advise that you meet up with a group of writers, swap stories, exercises and do it informal. An MA or even a BA in Creative Writing will not make the publishing world be more excited about your work. The question for many, is why do you write?

Because I can't stop...and now I will waffle off into the sunset....

The thing about courses is they make you write in a structured setting with objectives then talk about it. Most people can't or won't do this on their own. Courses should put the writing habit on you for the fees they charge.

Course cannot make you write when you have left, they can give you skills to write but if you don't write on your own, under your own steam, then you will never be a writer. All HE courses give you transferable skills but they must be used time and time again in your own time to work, a Doctor, an Engineer, a Scientist all learn skills and then go on, often to work these skills on their own. Why should writers be any different? Use the skills you learn, write to your own deadlines and if you can't, what is the chance that you will meet any other deadlines?

I agree coursework can't give you ongoing will, desire, motivation, etc. You can however get some nuts and bolts approaches and techniques to help you work on a consistent basis. Just inventing a way or method of working out of nowhere is difficult, especially with literary and creative fiction. I tend to think a lot of people stare at that white page or blank screen listening to the whispering inner critic thinking they have to come off like Tolstoy or something. Taking some courses where they just make you do it without giving doubt or the inner lit crit a chance to subvert things is the minimum of what solid coursework can do.

Absolutely true, and a good course should make you experiment. We will never be the next Tolstoy but we will be the first us!

Ahh, who'd want to be the next Tolstoy... ;) pe ps oid What is "the art of tea"? And what does an "odd courgette" look like?