When The Party's Over

Statistically speaking, one hundred percent of the planets we know to have ever had life on them, still do, so there's no guarantee that it will end before the planet ends - but it's not looking very good. We've inadvertently beamed the majority of our knowledge into space on radio waves so it will keep hanging around till the universe. I think there is some branch of theoretical physics that says it is impossible to destroy information - but I'm not sure about that. I rather like the idea of alien civilisations struggling to decoding old open university lectures. As for aliens turning up and finding a deserted british library you have to suppose that if they were able to get here but we weren't able to leave - we wouldn't have all that much of interest to tell them.

A scientist, Peter Lynds has put his reputation on the line by trying to prove that their is no such thing as ‘universal time’ . Critics are quite scornful and as Lynds is not a qualified Physicist, many critics have suggested that he doesn't actually exist. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

1 planet missi, so far as we know only this one has ever supported life, and it seems remarkably tenacious as a whole, even when individual species are not. There is currently a physicist in Chicago trying to send information backwards in time using coherence and the like. Is information that is either not understood for whatever reason or not recognised as information in the first place, really information? Is information a human concept? Ooh, fun question. Well all concepts are human concepts I suppose. But information does have a strict mathematical meaning once you get into quantum information theory and the like (where it is possible to make somebody stupider by telling them negative information - much like the Daily Mail) If information ceases to be information when it is no longer understood, then it must retains the capability to become information again. Egyptian heiroglyphs would have started as language, become pretty pictures, and then transmuted back into language again shortly after the discovery of the Rosetta stone. If they were nothing more than pictures in the intervening period that would imply that any picture may be decoded into language - which is a fun idea.

'It seems pretty obvious that at some point in the future this planet will be lifeless again, just as it was for millions of years before the primordial soup produced independent life forms.' A presumptuous statement at best. Evolutionary biologists (as opposed to physicists) have no idea whether it was a primordial soup, a self-forming and self replicating crystal-like form, or even a 'germ' from beyond the earth that seeded life. The most abundant life-forms on earth are microbial which can survive in the most extreme conditions, so it depends, when you say, "independent life forms", whether you're referring to humans or other forms aswell? There is no evidence that the earth was lifeless for millions of years. We know that the universe is composed on 99.9% hydrogen and that the lighter elements (those that make our lives possible) were created a mere 300,000 years after the big-bang. In conclusion we could say that life was possible 300,000 years after the birth of our universe. "does time really exist," Newtonian time (the concept of time we still use to this day) does not exist, as Einstein proved with relativity. An arrow of time exists but this is due to entropy. Time, as abstract as it is, exists and many technologists use time dilation during research. But time is relative and it's effects only noticeable at speeds nearing lightspeed. So yes, it exists...but is rather counterintuitive because we do not experience the extreme conditions necessary to witness its effects. Maybe one day we will. The time we're used to perceiving is based on entropy and motion of bodies and you could say that is a somewhat illusory perception of or concept of time but it helps us to organise our activities and make sense of the world on our scale. 'When all human life has died out will all the accumulated knowledge we possess still exist?' Well, all the accumulated knowledge, such as math, will exist in the very fabric of space-time. We extract that knowledge from the world around us, so yes. The potential for our knowledge to be revived or re-discovered by a conscious agent will still be there as long as the universe doesn't go changing its laws. Our knowledge, you could say, is merely a crude reflection of reality, a set of principles 'downloaded' into our brains in order for us to fathom what our sense perceptions allow us to. I don't think we'll be around to witness the death of our sun...I think we would have jumped ship a long time before. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

"As for aliens turning up and finding a deserted british library you have to suppose that if they were able to get here but we weren't able to leave - we wouldn't have all that much of interest to tell them." That makes as much as sense as anything else I've heard on the topic. Permission to borrow?

"The tenancy of life as we know it on Earth is nothing more than a grain of sand in the Sahara desert, and that poses several questions. For instance, does time really exist, or is it only a human construction to describe yet another thing we don't understand, but the question I've been pondering for several weeks now is this. When all human life has died out will all the accumulated knowledge we possess still exist?" I doubt science will ever find the answer to that one because it makes the mistake of looking at the universe as an object to be studied by us the subject. Some of the ancient religions, especially of the east, saw the universe as one whole being who sometimes expanded and sometimes contracted again. There were periods between action of pure potential where time/space probably didn't exist and then bam! there was the explosion into the multitude of forms that gradually forgot where they came from. So the sum total of 'human knowledge' really is not distinguishable from what the universe knows. But our little human expression of the design will probably fade away like a wave which is unique in form returns to the ocean where it came from. but if the scientists enjoy trying to piece it together, why not let them have fun? the great void will go on the same either way.

This thread is doing my head in. Might as well have a leedle party right now. *reaches for the port bottle*

Fascinating topic! So many potential tangents! Where to start? The significance of humankind, that’ll do… We are either monumentally significant or monumentally insignificant. I suppose it depends on whether we spread ourselves physically throughout the universe, destroy the universe or become the universe (which might be the same as the first thing). If, as a species, we become extinct, what will we leave behind? We may leave behind machines, which at some point, either during our species’ lifetime or after, have become “self-aware” (whatever that really means) – in which case, are these machines extensions of homo sapiens or an entirely new species? Erm… I can’t think of anything else to say on that topic… Carry on while I have a think. {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

This conversation reminded me of this bit from the Tempest. Sometimes Shakespeare saves one from trying to articulate stuff oneself, innit. "These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits, and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on; and our little life Is rounded with a sleep." The Tempest. Act IV. Sc. 1

'I don't believe there's any irrefutable evidence that there WAS a big bang, it seems it's just one of the popular theories that some scientists adhere to to explain things they don't understand. A bit like religion actually.' Oh dear! There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Shakespeare was a bit clever, eh? Innit, though! {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

Wassis all about then... http://www.big-bang-nfo.dk/ ...? {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

I've always felt very strongly, since I was a kid, that time does not happen in a linear fashion, it just does if you have a linear life - like humans do... so I think the big bang is something that is still happening in the far reaches of the universe and all time and space and existence happens at the same 'time'. That's why I think people have deja vu and see ghosts and stuff... it's like a video player that's accidently got two things on it, or double expose photos and stuff. I think human beings are really so very very tiny and it is amazing that we manage to think we are as big as we are. I don't find this scary, but rather comforting. I am sure, one day, human beings will be extinct, or in fact, they are extinct right now, as time is all happening right now. I am sure it matters not a jot. I am sur emost of us can't deal with that thought as we can barely cope if they change the time of our favourite tv programme, or if our bus is late, or if we are stuck in traffic. I like the buddhist thing of accepting life as it really is rather than what we wish it was...

Oh and they can see the big bang happening in big telescopes.

science reminds me of a dog chasing its own tail. But to its credit it is beginning to vaguely realise what the ancient pre indo-europeans knew god knows how many years ago. Which is that the universe is an entity that functions according to an ingrained plan, (though scientists have not yet realised that the universe is intellegent and creates the plan each time around) The universe goes through periods of non-existence as we know it where it is alone outside of space/time and existence in space/time where it manifests in a multitude of seemingly differentiated parts that are so busy carying out the divine plan that they lose sight of their origin in the great one, Right now is probably the point where we have gone the farthest along the road of amnesia. Turning telescopes and microscopes on ourselves satisfy ourselves as to what we are? How cute!

"Oh and they can see the big bang happening in big telescopes." Nah, I'll wait for the DVD...

"The universe goes through periods of non-existence as we know it where it is alone outside of space/time and existence in space/time where it manifests in a multitude of seemingly differentiated parts that are so busy carying out the divine plan that they lose sight of their origin in the great one," The plan? What friggn' plan? There's no plan man, there just you and your feets. Keep'm moving. How does something go through a period of non-existance? Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

"The plan? What friggn' plan? There's no plan man, there just you and your feets. Keep'm moving." Why should there be a friggin plan? I mean why would the entire universe that is perfect as it is need a friggin plan? I suggest that you adopt the friggin plan of sitting the hell down and listening to what is going on in that soul of yours if have you haven't complaetly sold it yet to your employers!

"The plan? What friggn' plan? There's no plan man, there just you and your feets. Keep'm moving." Why should there be a friggin plan? I mean why would the entire universe that is perfect as it is need a friggin plan? I suggest that you adopt the friggin plan of sitting the hell down and listening to what is going on in that soul of yours if you haven't completly sold it yet to your employers!

Anyway... "Party"...? Is that what it's been? :-/ {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

the universe is perfect?

...as perfect as you want it to be.

Yes, the universe is perfect. The idea just takes some getting used to.

It's a perfect universe! {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

Yes, the universe is perfect. The idea just takes some getting used to. And I should add that the party is never over, the guest list just keeps changing.

... and just when you find you have your eye on something worth seeing, you realise "she" is far beyond your reach. {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

There's also the by-product of superstring theory: 'multiverse theory' whereby there are a multitude of universes all developing by their own constants. Using the anthropic principle we're lucky to be in one that happened to be conductive to life. But there may be others that aren't. Hmmm. A year ago I made an appointment to see a renowned psychic. I finally got my appointment time through in September. But yesterday I received a letter from the psychic in which he apologised and said that he had to move my time back a little. The letter opened like this:- "Due to foreseen circumstances...." Do you think he's for real? There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

"There's also the by-product of superstring theory: 'multiverse theory' whereby there are a multitude of universes all developing by their own constants. Using the anthropic principle we're lucky to be in one that happened to be conductive to life" I think we were lucky. I feel sorry for the poor blighters who got stuck in those other ones...

"and just when you find you have your eye on something worth seeing, you realise "she" is far beyond your reach" I think you're better off without her sir. She would've only made your life miserable.

Oh I have since happened up a body far more heavenly... but thank you for your encouraging words, nonetheless, Mr Man! :-) {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

"The universe is perfect" Oh, interesting, I'd never considered this. So is the universe perfect by design, through a process of iteration, by chance...or something else? Is it perfect because it is everything, and therefore must by definition be perfect if judged by anything else? = What's the deal?

Well... What I meant by that was that, by the standards of all universes we know, the universe in which we reside is a perfect example of such. However, by a non-anthropocentric definition of a "perfect universe"... who knows? {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

Ok, cool. I'm the perfect example of me!

Exactly! :-) {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

Since we human beings are in no position to evaluate the universe as our feeble reasoning ability which evolved for much more practical things than contemplating the nature of the universe is wholly inadequate to judge, we have to go by belief or intuition. Because these gut feelings are closer to the truth than anything else. It seems better to believe it perfect, it is much harder to swallow the theory t hat there is something wrong and it is our mission to 'right' it. If you believe the universe is imperfect I'd like to know why..

>If you believe the universe is imperfect I'd like to know why.. Well, for starters...there isn't enough parking. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

If there isn't enough parking in Denver you've got real problems

Not enough parking in the universe... maybe that's why we haven't been visited by aliens yet... {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

[btw, Google Ads... Origin of the Universe Earth Primordial Soup Life After Life God Evidence ... Google the Philosopher! :-) ] {{{_"P"_}}} ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... Review of "Casino Royale")

"Well, for starters...there isn't enough parking." I doubt the Divine Unity has noticed that one. But if you put in a complaint, he/she will give it the consideration it deserves.

'But if you put in a complaint, he/she will give it the consideration it deserves.' But bear in mind that, although hardly anyone grants God a sense of humour, you may lose your house to make way for it :) There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

I have no idea if the universe is perfect. I wouldn't know where to begin with that question. I'm not even sure I know what it the universe is, and I definitely don't know what perfect is...so I wouldn't have much to go on... And even if it were imperfect, I certainly wouldn't bother 'righting' it. To badly quote something I can't remember (Notes from the Underground, perhaps?) "What is it to me if two and two is four?" Or five, I say.

"But bear in mind that, although hardly anyone grants God a sense of humour, you may lose your house to make way for it :)" LOL! I'm sure God has that kind of humour. Though I think he/she also has a sense of tragedy and even of horror as well. By perfect Universe, I don't mean that every thing is happy all the time or even receiving its optimum benefit. Universe operates by its own laws which are an organic element of it. I envision a hypothetical state of equilibrium at which there is no resistance. But as the universe is dynamic and everything is changing all the time, few things if any rest in that perfect state. Rather things go too far one way or the other and that's where consequences are felt. So if you have too many cars, you will lack parking spaces, and if you bulldoze gardens for them you will have urban blight. If you heat up the planet with too many cars you will melt the glaciers and then create a need for boats. If you give ninety percent of the money to one percent of the people, you will have the rest struggling for the remaining one percent. It is all perfectly right in the universal sense. Of course I don't really know what 'universe' or 'perfect' mean either but I know what most of us mean when we use these words. But meditating on the idea that the universe is perfect seems very good for my mental health. Things happen because it is right for them to happen. We are free to try and change them and when we do, we gain the rewards or punishments of our actions according to how well thought out and executed our efforts are. But the need for angst disappears. We do what must be done but don't become attached to the result. If the result isn't what was expected we can try and find out why or accept the new state of affairs. I hope this makes some sense as I've been making it up as I go along :)

I think that was well explained and I think I understand what your saying. But I take issue with one point, and that is "the need for angst disappears". In my view, analysing the nature of life and the world and the universe always boils down to one issue: the meaning of everything disappears. Yes, it might be 'in balance'. But so what? It might be perfect? Well, what difference does it make? It is and that is all. And then, from that point, one builds one's own meanings in life. And those meanings could be material (sensual) or intellectual (of the "spirit") or both. That's human life, that's what's all around us: the unspoken acknowledgement of no intrinsic meaning to anything and the angst it produces.