Killer not deported because government doesn't understand its own laws

Tue, 2007-08-21 18:55

#2

Governments aren't supposed to understand the laws. They just write them. (Well, parliaments do.) It's judges and law lords who are supposed to understand them. And if they don't know their arses from their legal and proverbial elbows, well, there is always an endless series of appeals and the European Court to look forward to. The law is an ass. And it looks good in hot-pants. :-) My webpage is at: http://www.bookscape.co.uk

My latest killing is:
http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/human_sacrifice.php

Tue, 2007-08-21 20:21

#3

bobblehat2023

"Governments aren't supposed to understand the laws. They just write them. (Well, parliaments do.) It's judges and law lords who are supposed to understand them." Well, this is increasingly the situation under New Labour. They've brought in lots of new laws without properly considering their implications and then they get pissed off when the legal establishment tells them that they're breaking their own laws.

Tue, 2007-08-21 22:33

#4

camilla

I thought it was about sucking up to Europe.We really do need to stop being pathetic and effete.There have been quite a few cases where foreigners rape and murder but can't be deported.Chindamo's gang nearly killed someone else before Mr L and was involved in a rape.He will remain a danger. We have never studied what it is that helps victims recover.I'm going to say something wildly rabidly feminist.Violent crime is committed primarily by men.Law has been written primarily by men.The focus has remained on the criminal and his needs.Why dont we change the focus and find out what helps victims to recover their sense of agency and safety.Give victims back some power and the criminal real opportunity to make reparation.In Chindanos case this might be by er going away.

Wed, 2007-08-22 09:11

#5

maddan

Well either he's a danger to society, in which case he should still be in jail, or he's not a danger and has paid his debt, in which case he should be free to live where he wants. What the victim needs, I imagine, is her husband back. There is not a lot the law can do for victims without returning to somewhat backward notions of vengance.

Wed, 2007-08-22 11:27

#6

styx

Agree with Camilla about men and Patmac the law is not an ass, it's just ver ver drunk. I know I lived with them for 8 years and not a sound liver amongst them,and fookin' 'ell can't they put it away! I'm an alcoholic and they always drank me under the table. I went to many do's and if you could have witnessed the braying swivel-eyed arrogance you'd be surprised that any proper justice is ever meted out.

Wed, 2007-08-22 11:40

#7

bobblehat2023

To be fair to Mrs Lawrence, her main objection is that the government has been telling her for over 10 years that her husband's killer would be deported at the end of his sentence. Now she and her children have to deal, out of the blue, with the prospect that he won't be deported and they could meet him on the street. In reality, he could never have been deported because he is an EU citizen who has lived here for over ten years. The situation would be exactly the same in reverse if a British citizen murdered someone in another EU country. It's actually nothing to do with the much maligned Human Rights Act. What's wrong is that successive Home Secretaries have taken up macho postures about how they're going to be deport this guy when, under their own law, they don't have the legal basis to do so. Either through intention or incompetence, they've misled the Lawrence family for their own political purposes. "Give victims back some power and the criminal real opportunity to make reparation.In Chindanos case this might be by er going away." Well, I think it's unlikely that dumping him in a country where he doesn't know anyone and doesn't speak the language would make him less likely to commit further crimes. I think exactly the opposite would be the case.

Wed, 2007-08-22 12:26

#8

camilla

Who cares if Mrs L was mislead! The point is we have stopped topping murderers but have not found ways to ameliorate the experience of the victims of their crimes.It needs to be re thought entirely.Where is there any natural justice or indeed sanity in all the focus and concern being on the criminal ?

Wed, 2007-08-22 12:44

#9

markbrown

Camilla, what is natural justice? There isn't any justice in nature. What do you mean? Cheers, Mark

Wed, 2007-08-22 13:37

#10

bobblehat2023

"The point is we have stopped topping murderers but have not found ways to ameliorate the experience of the victims of their crimes." How would you suggest doing that?

Wed, 2007-08-22 13:42

#11

patmac

Hey, sty - After all the swivel-eyed arrogance I'm not too sure that any proper justice does get meted out! Who's letting prisoners out early because there aren't enough places? Gilford Four, Birmingham Six -da,da,da- "Give me another can of Special Brew! Easy job this being a barrister." "Hic, Issh, wrrest my, ccassh, Your, Ho, Yo, Your Honnnr." My webpage is at: http://www.bookscape.co.uk

My latest killing is:
http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/human_sacrifice.php

Wed, 2007-08-22 15:19

#12

markbrown

Camilla, is this what you mean by natural justice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_justice ? If so, then I can't really disagree. I don't think it is what you meant, though. How does your understanding of natural justice relate to this, or to the case in question? Cheers, mark

Wed, 2007-08-22 15:32

#13

martin_t

been a lot of discussion about this on other boards i frequent, as far as i can see, if he is released next year it'll be on a life licence and he can be returned at any time if he breaches the term of the licence also the probation service can monitor him in this country - would be difficult (although i'm sure they'd love to try) to monitor him in italy that said,(with tongue in cheek) he has been in prison for 12 years, with the threat of deporation hanging over him all that time - he could have used that time to relearn his childhood language - and as far as the widow is concerned - the hra was not on the books when he was sentenced, and the courts would have had no idea of the possible implications of that act when he was sentenced

Wed, 2007-08-22 15:49

#14

bobblehat2023

The Human Rights Act issue is different, though. The law that you can't deport an EU citizen who's lived in a country for more than ten years is EU law. It would apply even if the HRA was abolished. We'd have to leave the EU for it not to apply.

Wed, 2007-08-22 17:17

#15

camilla

Well perhaps the first step is to ask the question.What is it that helps recovery in victims?I am not aware of a huge body of work dedicated to this.Why isn't there? Why has the State and Society colluded with the continued emotional abuse of victims through the courts and afterwards?What makes us nervous about giving victims or families of the murdered back some power? They might be vengeful and irrational so what. It would be nothing to the original crime.There have only ever been minor attempts at confrontation and reparation.Law is supposed to be reason free from passion but why?Passion can be managed.Morality comes from feeling not just rational thought. Chindamo's Mum is from the Phillipines.They could be helped to go there.He would have some anonymity and neither would be anywhere near the possible whereabouts of his nasty violent Dad.His Dad is on the run but sentenced for throwing acid in a womans face. I think justice must include care for the victim.Currently it does not.The scales are unbalanced.

Wed, 2007-08-22 18:55

#16

camilla

Heres an idea.There aren't enough fruit pickers.Why shouldn't criminals do useful work for which they are paid something.Some of the money earned by work or study in prison is then handed on to their victims or a victims nominated charity.Direct reparation. It is very recent this idea that there is no topping of murderers.We have not filled in what else can be done.Victims are just supposed not to mind,grieve and move on.Murder is not a normal bereavement and this should be respected .

Thu, 2007-08-23 10:00

#17

bobblehat2023

"It is very recent this idea that there is no topping of murderers.We have not filled in what else can be done." You're making a big assumption that victims and victims' families used to benefit from murderers being executed. I think it's possible to attempt to rehabilitate most criminals and also provide proper support for victims. It shouldn't be a case of one or the other. Lots of criminals already do work in prison which helps to pay for the cost of keeping them in prison. Victims of crime already do receive compensation - there's obviously another debate about how much and the way it's awarded. I don't know whether most victims' families would be happier or less happy if this was directly linked to work by the person who'd killed a member of their family.