Not again.

I know it's not very nice to complain about someone, but I do feel abctales is a far better place without him. He has an almost frightening ability to clear the forums. This isn't a website he can make a meaningful contribution to, and I think a permaban is totally justified.

Life is full of little disappointments. God forbid he gang up on somebody and clobber them with snobbishness.

Oh God. Just when you thought it was safe etc etc. Jasper will not change. We had this all before when he came back as Nikaya. The new users won't understand what the fuss is about which will cause its own problems, until he eventually shows his true colours and becomes so outrageously abusive that I, for one, join the long, grumbling queue shuffling towards the exit. The damage is done by the time he gets that bad. Can't he just stay banned?

Camus, I know all about Jasper. It's really a matter of perspective. Want some cheese to go with that whine?

I have my eyes upon the matter.

I didn't know he'd been banned, I thought the power of my wit was too much for him and he just skulked off back under his rock mumbling to himself like Mutley. nuts! I'm gonna have to get a load of new cards printed now with 'Nob slayer' removed.

Radio Denver... I love you, man.

This has all been going on on a Friday morning - same time I was having an affair!

See what happens when you get busy doing things you're not supposed to be doing, and whilst you don't even know you're doing them? I tell you, it's habit-forming and none too healthy...

Hey AG...what'cha been up to?

It's getting to be a habit with her...

RD, Too much quibbling over trifles, not enough writing. How's the fishing and writing going for you there in the Mile HIgh zone? I've sorely missed our debates over the Roman Empire; there seems to be a dearth of geopolitical argument on these threads and a plethora of piffle nowadays...even Missi, with his outrageous kill-the-baddies philosophies, is barely on lately. I've missed both of you, actually... tsk.

I thought jude wasn't allowed a habit, Tony! Too radical by far!

The writing has been sporadic at best...too busy making a living this past 6 months. Life is good though. As a matter of fact, I met up with Mississippi back in December around the holidays in Nashville at a recording studio. We hit it off real well I think. (George if you're out there watching...don't call me a liar and shoot me) He's a real character...no telling how I came across ha!

Radio Denver, Look, a short comment. How droll. Now where did I leave my plate of non-sequiturs?

Hey Hen...how you doing? Did your skin clear up from that makeup?

I'm OK. How did the photographs turn out?

Quite well actually.

To return to slating Jasper. The man is a nightmare. He kills every thread he touches. And he touches a lot of threads. There are so many writing sites in the world - can't we just all chip for him to have a permanent membership at writewords.org.uk - that'll learn 'em... I don't think banning him is snobbishness, just pragmatism. Joe

This post has disappeared twice again. I'll take 2Lou's advice and SHOUT REALLY LOUDLY AT IT. Banning people is a bit like the Prohibition Era, banning alcohol; it just becomes subverted and more difficult to enforce. I know many people on this site have had a lot of grief and harassment from certain members of the public, but sometimes passive resistance or simply overlooking certain things, works better in the long run than engagement or actively resisting, getting into arguments, slag-off sessions, and whathaveyou. That simply fuels the fire. Ultimately the decision lies with TC, but this is supposed to be an open site, which means that not everyone will get along with everyone else. As long as he (you, if you're reading this!) behaves himself and doesn't go OTT, I don't [personally] have a problem with it; but I realise I haven't been the brunt of too many overtly offensive remarks. I'd suggest gentleness rather than force.

See? Shouting at the post *does* work. *feels pleased*

Heh, so much for gentleness, however...

I know on Deviantart they've *got* to ban certain people. When a site gets that popular, you do get an awful lot of people who are there simply to cause trouble, and nothing more. Others will rampant plagiarists, which gets everyone annoyed. Now, imposing bans is no end-all solution. I know over there they have a problem with anonymous administrators running wild and being overzealous in the bans they impose, to the extent that a bunch of them got fired recently after sustained attacks on innocent people. But is *not* imposing bans any kind of solution when trouble-makers have the power to bring down a community? Society will go on, in some form, whether we can drink alcohol or not, but anarchistic twats have the power to mess up a site as big as Deviantart if they aren't bad, and ABCTales is so small I think one or two persistent offenders could force a lot of people to leave.

Any of you ever read Kafka's "The Lottery." This is better

No, but I read Metamorphosis a long, long time ago in a galaxy far far away...I'll have to go back and re-read now, along with your recommendation. I'm sure you're right; certainly this site is full of existential angst...

errr....it was Shirley Jackson wot wrote "The Lottery." My mistake....

* Jackson's story portrays an "average" New England village with "average" citizens engaged in a deadly rite, the annual selection of a sacrificial victim by means of a public lottery, and does so quite deviously: not until well along in the story do we suspect that the "winner" will be stoned to death by the rest of the villagers. * Perhaps then instead of people being banned after they abuse other users and the site in general it may be a good idea to have a process of selection when signing up for the site, sort of a check to see if they have been previously banned before they are given a password. I think some other writers sites do this don't they? Of course some of these other sites also have forum administrators to stop people being subjected to abuse in the first place, here however the ideal is that people will be controlled enough not to require that. It is unfortunate when a person like Jasper comes along and disrupts that ideal because it is the other REGULAR users who eventually suffer (not the ones who pop over once in a blue moon). Is that making him a sacrificial victim? No, when he gets banned it is always for good reason. If he could learn to control himself then hey, no problem. Will he though? Probably not.

Jackson's story speaks to the need for cultures to scapegoat. The need to blame someone for all the sins of the group. I can find no better example than right here.

Then you're not looking very hard, are you?

I'm on the fence...I detest the abuse that gets handed out here sometimes, but Jasper ain't the only one who does it; the others are much subtler and more insidious about it. It's easy to ignore the man with the placard shouting on the street; it's more difficult to ignore a knife in your back.

He was never shouting in your direction, AG. That's why he was easier for you to ignore. As he was crawling over every thread by that point, it was nigh on impossible not to see what he was posting or not to react to it when it was particularly personal and vicious. Unfortunately, when anybody stood up to him on behalf of somebody else, he turned on them personally too. People did try to ignore him AG, for a very long time, but it didn’t work, he just shouted louder.

Well, since we're going to dwell on this... What are the characteristics of a "scapegoat?" It has to be vilified by the group and cast out of society. From my knowledge, "Jasper" seems to have achieved that high alter here. What is most obvious to me and what Archer Girl hints at is that there have been far more insidious things said in these forums and not by Jasper. The very need to start a thread on this subject is insidious. Those chiming in with their support of the hatred is insidious. Jasper's a turkey in a barnyard full of chickens. To the chickens he looks pretty friggn' strange. The chicken's are too damn stupid to know they are only chickens. I have no great love for Jasper, but I have no hate for him/her either. What possible harm on this earth can Jasper do to you or anybody else that frequents these forums other than write WORDS that you don't want to READ? Are people here so feeble minded that their minds can’t absorb certain combinations of words without having a neurological event? Wallow around in rationalization all you like, from my view of the road...Jasper isn't/wasn't the problem...he's the scapegoat. Just my opinion...and I'm sticking to it.

That's fine, RD. You’ve always been consistent in your ability to ignore the various levels of sniping on this site. Archergirl isn’t. That's why I replied. The fact that a thread has been started about Jasper in particular is because he was banned – now he isn’t. If anyone agreed to the first state of affairs it’s only rational that they aren’t going to agree with the second. Scapegoat? For what, for God’s sake? Just my opinion.

I thought that I must have misread Jacksons lottery as at first I thought that it was a testament to the stupidity of Americans rather than any cultures need for a scapegoat, after reading Radio Denvers posts I see I was right with my first reading after all.

Yes, we have a long history of stoning people in the town square.

Um, I've been stoned in the town square before... Thai stick, I think it was... I do -try- to achieve RD's level of sanguinity; haven't reached it yet, but I'm working on it. But I found Jasper's sometimes humorous, sometimes just plain out-there rantings much, MUCH easier to ignore than the ...shall we call them 'dry'... digs by various other people. Jasper just never bothered me that much. And RD is absolutely 100% right: they -are- just words, and need we take any of this at all seriously? [I say, in retrospect...*cough*]..

"What possible harm on this earth can Jasper do to you or anybody else that frequents these forums other than write WORDS that you don't want to READ? Are people here so feeble minded that their minds can’t absorb certain combinations of words without having a neurological event?" You tosser! The problem with Jasper is not that he hurts people's feelings - we all have the distance of cyber space to protect us - but that he kills lots of perfectly decent threads, is argumentative and - dare I say it - talks absolute shit, all the fucking time. He is consistently destructive. I hope you're not so feeble minded as to let this post cause a neurological event.

Oh...I'm a tosser.....what, because I won't subscribe to the little hate-fests that go on here? I like the ring of that... Radiotosser....

spack, RD (or is it now 'RT') is right; you can make a big deal of it, or not. People on this thread just loooovve making big deals out of small things. Jasper doesn't kill threads unless you plug in to whatever he's saying that you find offensive. He's not like our lady ritawrites who puts up endless posts of birdchirps; he rants, but how seriously do you *really* have to take it? Do you even have to read them? No. Do you have to respond? No. Do you have to even pretend you've noticed his posts? No. There -is- a choice in the matter. It's down to you. Calling RD a tosser is not necessarily conducive to productive dialogue, either, now is it? Who's getting all het up?

Once you're so magnaminously not reading, or responding to, or pretending to have noticed a thread, could that thread not be said to be, say, for want of a better word, killed.

hahah, that's the funniest thing I have read in ages. There seems to be more than a smattering of hypocrisy in there A.G, "but how seriously do you *really* have to take it? Do you even have to read them? No. Do you have to respond? No." I think you may need to take a heavy dose of your own medicine.

Ah, yes, do as I say, not as I do! Medicine was taken with great self-awareness as I typed, Soupie my love. Doesn't mean the advice isn't sound, however...nobody's perfect, innit.

"Once you're so magnaminously not reading, or responding to, or pretending to have noticed a thread, could that thread not be said to be, say, for want of a better word, killed." Maddan speaks truth, AG. And if someone is foolhardy enough to try and engage with what Jasper has written then he will rain down hellfire of non-sensical pseudo-intellectual toss-rot.

I havent been on here much for a while, and i started having a good read around today and found this thread. It did amuse me i have to say, i do hope things dont get out of hand again, im certainly not going to step into any heated discussions this time, the fact it could all kick off again at any time proves there is no point. Happy writing guys! Em.

Actually, Jasper often gave me his opinions on my writing, and it was all positive feedback. Whether I chose to make the changes was, of course, at my discretion, and I never, repeat, never, had any trouble with either his feedback or his 'pseudo-intellectual toss-rot' as you call it, which is a bit rich on a site like this. Jasper likes nothing more than a heated reaction to his stirring; there are more than enough people on here who seem utterly helpless to prevent themselves from responding thusly, but the fact that he -does- offer feedback is not in and of itself a problem. He flags up people's work he likes, points out what he doesn't like, offers some ideas on how to possibly change it...what's the trouble with that? Isn't that what we're *all* supposed to be doing? So what if not everyone agrees with his opinions...so what? I mean, really... another storm in a teacup. If he behaves himself, which he has been doing thus far [thank you], what's the trouble?

sick.... of this. Span

To paint the Jasper of yore as some kind of harmless novelty act is disingenuous and some respects dangerous. At his best he did provide comments on writing, yes, but at his worst he was sinister, intrusive and gave attention to certain people on here that they did not want. That isn't scapegoating. I felt quite uncomfortable with many of his comments directed at me in a way that I have not about any other member of here in the whole time I have been here. However, was trying to have a conversation last night with someone very dear to me and neither of us could get across what we meant. It's like that on here all the time. I'm with span.

I had a lovely morning this morning possibly having affairs - I really don't remember. All I remember of the Jasper thing is everyone talking about it and me not really knowing what was going on. I think I may have an unusual ability to ignore because of my dissociative identity disorder. I usually never say anything contraversial because I'm a coward BUT One thing I note about this site is that sometimes we take it and ourselves a wee bit too seriously.

Yep. Funny isn't it?